Who has actually looked at the movement?

[solchitlins]

Hi, I am not trying to start trouble but has anyone actually looked at their watches movement to make sure it's what the co. claims?

While researching Steinhart, Robert and Debaufre I came across this review of a Grovana Coral Reef Diver 300m,
wich I beleive makes all these brands

http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=94266

Well anyways the movt turned out to be mis represented as a ETA! It was actually a sw200!

That's a big deal breaker to me, so before I buy a 300m dive watch from any of these guys I need to hear some eye witness accounts.

;-)

Plus does anyone know the difference between the GMT movts? Are they really ETA's?

Thanks Guys

[vandice]

For mechanical GMT movements, the only ones I've seen used in sub 1k watches are ETAs 2892-A2 (discontinued), 2893-2 and to a lesser extent, the 2836 modified by Bernhardt in their Globemaster.

There is a GMT calibre in Orient's stables but the GMT hand is not independent.

To my knowledge, Sellita currently has only one calibre, the SW200, in their stables. It's basically a close cousin of the 2824.

The GMT movement used in Debaufre/Steinhart is the 2893-2. I don't think there are cheaper/easier to obtain options out there, as is the case for the 2824.

[loplop]

Vandice is correct, there's no Sellita equivalent (yet, it's coming)... But I'm curious; why is the Sellita a deal breaker for you? Do you have experience with the SW200, or just not like the idea of it?

[Triton]

Although Steinhart used be a partner of Robert watches, this is not the case anymore today and hasn't been for more than a year.

Also, Grovana does not make Steinhart and Debaufre! Steinhart works with many different swiss and german companies (case manufacturers, dial printers, movement assemblers, etc) to produce Steinhart and Debaufre watches.
Regarding the Steinhart Ocean 1 dive watches, yes, they are in fact produced by Revue-Thommen/Grovana of Switzerland. Mr. Steinhart has told me, that he has a written guarantee from them, that they will only incorporate ETA movements for these watches. If you should get one with a Sellita, please contact Steinhart watches in Germany immediately!

Me personally, I don't care if the watch uses either movement, since the Sellita SW200 is nearly identical, almost a clone of the ETA 2824-2. It even uses some of the same parts as the ETA. It's perfomance is pretty much equal to the 2824-2, some even think its slightly bettter, since the SW200 incorporates one more jewel and has more power reserve when fully wound. And, finally, the SW200 is also manufactured in Switzerland.

[solchitlins]

I just don't like the fact that it's not what it claims to be. This allready happened to me with a Zodiac Oceaniare, when it came time to sell people wanted to know what was under the hood.

So it's not only me that prefers the ETA movt.

Also every Joe Blow watch repair man is used to working with ETA's and parts are readly available, is it the same with sw200?

I don't know?

[vandice]

Re: SW200 repair. Any competent watchmaker should be able to service it. Parts should be easy to obtain too.

Re: ETA. Just a suggestion. Buy a watch with a display back.

[stuffler,mike]

I just don't like the fact that it's not what it claims to be. This allready happened to me with a Zodiac Oceaniare, when it came time to sell people wanted to know what was under the hood.

So it's not only me that prefers the ETA movt.

Also every Joe Blow watch repair man is used to working with ETA's and parts are readly available, is it the same with sw200?

I don't know?

Well, for decades Sellita worked with and on ETA movements. The SW 200 is just a "clone" of the ETA 2824-2 with one jewel more which already indicates that there´s no big difference (if there´s any). Every watchmaker is able to work on every movement. No big deal either. Sellita has often been an issue here on WUS. Feel free to use our search function.

[solchitlins]

ok guys thanks, I'm all read up and ok with the replacement movt. now.

[jems]

Okay, I am going a little nuts now. I just posted a reply on the Grovan Review thread, regarding Grovanas I purchased recently. I am hoping they don't have those sw200 mvmnts. in them. Although, I am very suspicious that at least two of them do. Why?, several months ago, before I made any Grovana or Steinhart purchases, I bought one of those new 9937's out there. Brand new from one of their exclusive distributors. After finally getting my watch, I found the crown to be seemingly defective. It did not want to unlock & spring out when unscrewed all the way. Also, the clicks at each stage when pulling out the crown, were not ditinctive.
I already felt I had payed too much for this watch. Being the sw200 was not as eye appealing as the gold plated 2824-2 that the maker had originally used in their 9937's. Thus I returned it. Since then I have purchased two Steinharts & four Grovanas. All the Steinharts work pretty well. The last two Grovanas that I purchased, Well, they seem to be just like the 9937 that I had originally purchased. I don't really know if this has anything to do with the mvmnt. But, it sure seems to be a coincidence. After stumbling on Jim's Grovana Review, I am almost cetain that I have a cple. of Grovanas w/Heart Transplants. If I ever get the nerve, I will open them up & poast a mssg. for all you other DIVER lovers.
I also have two Debaufres, these also are working flawlessly at this time. The only thing I really don't care for w/these is there bands are similiar to the grovanas, in that they are push pin links, as opposed to the screw in links that Debaufre had originally used on their Steinharts. Thats just my personal pref. though. All in all though, the Debaufre's are beautiful watches.
Joeo|

[vandice]

Screwed links are more likely to fail than a pin/collar setup. But I agree. Easier to install.

[Watchstuff2]

Okay, I am going a little nuts now. I just posted a reply on the Grovan Review thread, regarding Grovanas I purchased recently. I am hoping they don't have those sw200 mvmnts. in them. Although, I am very suspicious that at least two of them do. Why?, several months ago, before I made any Grovana or Steinhart purchases, I bought one of those new 9937's out there. Brand new from one of their exclusive distributors. After finally getting my watch, I found the crown to be seemingly defective. It did not want to unlock & spring out when unscrewed all the way. Also, the clicks at each stage when pulling out the crown, were not ditinctive.
I already felt I had payed too much for this watch. Being the sw200 was not as eye appealing as the gold plated 2824-2 that the maker had originally used in their 9937's. Thus I returned it. Since then I have purchased two Steinharts & four Grovanas. All the Steinharts work pretty well. The last two Grovanas that I purchased, Well, they seem to be just like the 9937 that I had originally purchased. I don't really know if this has anything to do with the mvmnt. But, it sure seems to be a coincidence. After stumbling on Jim's Grovana Review, I am almost cetain that I have a cple. of Grovanas w/Heart Transplants. If I ever get the nerve, I will open them up & poast a mssg. for all you other DIVER lovers.
I also have two Debaufres, these also are working flawlessly at this time. The only thing I really don't care for w/these is there bands are similiar to the grovanas, in that they are push pin links, as opposed to the screw in links that Debaufre had originally used on their Steinharts. Thats just my personal pref. though. All in all though, the Debaufre's are beautiful watches.
Joeo|

Thanks for the info Jems...I have heard a few negative things about Grovana watches, and so I was very surprised when I learned that they make one of the Steinhart models...but I also read that they have some kind of quality control agreement in place, so it sounds like they have the ability to make a great watch (the Steinhart) but don't always do so (their own brand!). Which is kind of sad, as they are an old company with lots of background and experience, seems weird they would short their own brand! Needless to say I will stick with Debaufre/Steinhart! I am also surprised about the 9937 - I had one a few years ago with the gold plated 2824 and it was a very good, solid watch, and at the time was a great value for the price...I am sorry to hear that, at least based on the one you got, they are no longer a sure thing...there are so many models of "sub" out there in that range it is hard to tell which way to go! :-|

[swzarsa]

I recently asked an online vendor (apparently based in Germany) if they will guaranty the movement on the advertised watch as a ETA 2824-2. I received a rather tart reply stating the following: "no. could be sw200". Oh Heck, I bought it anyway...


aloha to all,
rich

[baerchen]

For the guys who want to get some info about Sellita;-)


"The ETA ‘clones’
With the patents of several of the ETA ‘tractors’ having fallen into the public domain, the companies, which formerly worked in assembling the ébauches supplied by ETA, were now making what are called ETA ‘gauged’ movements.
Totally compatible, these ETA ‘clones’ could fit in the same manner into the same cases, and receive the same dials and accept the same additional modules.
In this respect, Sellita, which announced that it can produce a total of one million movements per year (of which, up to that fateful day, were included a very large proportion of ETA ébauches), now manufactures its SW 200 movement (clone of the famous ETA 2824) and its SW 300 (clone of the celebrated ETA ‘tractor’ 2892). Starting next year, it will offer the SW 220 (clone of the ETA 2836) and the SW 240 (clone of the ETA 2834).
Sellita says that it sells movements to a total of 350 different clients, and that its products equip about 30 percent of ‘Swiss Made’ mechanical watches. Miguel Garcia, owner of the movement maker, remains circumspect as to the company’s’s future projects. “We do not do any marketing,” he says. Yet, he does let out a few titbits on the company’s development plans, affirming that he has united a group of subcontractors all located in the Jurassian arc region of Switzerland, with the goal of constructing a new factory. Over time, this new facility will directly and indirectly employ nearly 1000 people. But beyond that, Garcia remains tight-lipped."


...and here is the complete link:


http://www.europastar.com/europastar/magazine/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003535554

[Triton]

Thank you Bärchen! |>

[Watchstuff2]

Yes indeed, I knew some of that from previous reads, but that fills it out quite a bit...thanks!

[baerchen]

you are welcome guys...

[jems]

Hi guys,
I finally got up the courage to open up two of my Grovana divers. I am relieved to say that both opened say, "twenty five 25 Jewel movement" on the pendulum, not 26 jewel. Both of these two that I opened, also have no other writing on the movement. Grovana, ETA, or anything else. I guess these are the plain Jane, totally un-decorated ETA 2824-2 mvmnt's. That's perfectly fine with me. (These ETA mvmnt's. have an absolute proven track record.) I have two other Grovanas. Another 42mm Diver & a GMT. The GMT, I am assuming, has the ETA 2893-2 that it is supposed to have. This mvmnt. is absolutely as smooth as butter. My other diver has been tucked away in the back of my closet, just to have as a spare or possibly as a future gift. I might say that, maybe I possibly purchased these prior to the German distributor receiving any of the ones with the Sellita mvmnt's. in them. :-! As far as the stickey crowns, I just don't know. Never had a watch w/an ETA mvmn't that did this. I guess I'll have to bring them to a jeweler if they don't free up a little.

[jems]

Guys,
I just stumbled onto this. http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=55349
(Excuse me, but I'm a little new to WATCHUSEEK.) OldeCrow did a review of the Steinhart 42mm, Ocean 1 back in Dec. '06 & had taken a photo of the inside of it. It's exactly the same as the two Grovanas I just opened. They are indeed the same watch. Just different logo on the dial guys.

[stuffler,mike]

Guys,
I just stumbled onto this. http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=55349
(Excuse me, but I'm a little new to WATCHUSEEK.) OldeCrow did a review of the Steinhart 42mm, Ocean 1 back in Dec. '06 & had taken a photo of the inside of it. It's exactly the same as the two Grovanas I just opened. They are indeed the same watch. Just different logo on the dial guys.

As far as I know nobody ever denied the Steinhart - Grovana connection.

[loplop]

FWIW, I believe the movement in my Bathys to be a Sellita. I don't know this for certain, as John @ Bathys hasn't confirmed this yet, but if it is I'd say don't be afraid of the Sellita.

Mine is running +11 sec a day with a standard deviation of 2.8. This means although the movement is running faster than I would like (regulation is average), it is fairly stable. It is less stable in some positions, but I expect this as it's not a top grade movement, and not adjusted as such.

Other than being a little more difficult to wind than my wife's TAG with an ETA 2824, and not displaying as well-defined of a "click" when fully wound, it appears to be a good movement. The amount of positive rate is annoying to me since I track this daily, but this is John's choice when he orders the movements.

[vwbluxu2]

Okay, I am going a little nuts now. I just posted a reply on the Grovan Review thread, regarding Grovanas I purchased recently. I am hoping they don't have those sw200 mvmnts. in them. Although, I am very suspicious that at least two of them do. Why?, several months ago, before I made any Grovana or Steinhart purchases, I bought one of those new 9937's out there. Brand new from one of their exclusive distributors. After finally getting my watch, I found the crown to be seemingly defective. It did not want to unlock & spring out when unscrewed all the way. Also, the clicks at each stage when pulling out the crown, were not ditinctive.
I already felt I had payed too much for this watch. Being the sw200 was not as eye appealing as the gold plated 2824-2 that the maker had originally used in their 9937's. Thus I returned it. Since then I have purchased two Steinharts & four Grovanas. All the Steinharts work pretty well. The last two Grovanas that I purchased, Well, they seem to be just like the 9937 that I had originally purchased. I don't really know if this has anything to do with the mvmnt. But, it sure seems to be a coincidence. After stumbling on Jim's Grovana Review, I am almost cetain that I have a cple. of Grovanas w/Heart Transplants. If I ever get the nerve, I will open them up & poast a mssg. for all you other DIVER lovers.
I also have two Debaufres, these also are working flawlessly at this time. The only thing I really don't care for w/these is there bands are similiar to the grovanas, in that they are push pin links, as opposed to the screw in links that Debaufre had originally used on their Steinharts. Thats just my personal pref. though. All in all though, the Debaufre's are beautiful watches.
Joeo|

While I am a newbie to Steinhart, I can tell you that about 5 years ago I was an Invicta dealer..actually the 2nd in the States behind Tom Palmer. What I can tell you that one of the ways that invicta will cut corners to save a buck is buy referbished movements. The 9937 was one of the first watches with a true swiss auto in it...yeah, they retailed for 1100.00...but who EVER paid that? If memory serves me, the cost on them was $230.00...seriously...do the math on that...how were they making money?

One other invicta fun fact: I had an average of 20-25% of their watches were dead on arrival. I sold a lot online...10-15 pieces a week. There's a statment of quality control for ya!