"Flame-Blued Hands" Project (retrofit for Laco Pilot Baumuster B)

[Crusader]

My suggestion is that someone else should volunteer and take up the issue with Laco once the watch presently under discussion is finalized and on the way.

I'd be happy to volunteer to get in touch with Laco and contact them regarding the blued hands retrofit once the specifications for the watch are established, and they are in the process of building it. I think a dedicated thread in this subforum is a great idea. That way, anybody who has an interest in getting blued hands can provide input. For now, though, I think its best to concentrate on the task at hand and finalize the design of the project. :-)

I have started this thread already, but suggest that the project only start after 9 May when the Laco watch is finished. Reinman60 has volunteered to be the project coordinator.

The idea is that the special edition watch project can go ahead with stock black hands, and that the flame-blued hands (if they can be made available at all) would be purchased separately and retro-fitted by those watch owners who desire them.

Please keep in mind that the project may also be of interest to those already owning a regular 2824-based Laco Pilot.

EDIT: frank_be has takennow over the project from reinman60. :-)

[Hary]

Thank you to Crusader and Reinmann60 for organizing this special side project.

I am wondering, whether Laco will get the blued hand from the same supplier as Stowa (Universo), which Joerg claimed one of the best hand manufacturer out there. If we want to have flame blued hand, then we should aim for the best :-)

[TIMEangel]

Hary

Seconded.

[Mercutio]

Hmm, definitely interested in that one for my existing Laco.

Thanks, Crusader ;-)

[Nalu]

Is there any question about my status? :-!

[Paulo]

You allready knew you could count me in, didn't you? ;-) :-d

[Frode]

I' m in too! :-)

[BRUCE]

Me too. Count me in.

[Janne]

Count me in too! Blue is beautiful!

[reinman60]

I just saw this thread after being away from the Forum for several days.
I think Crusader's point is well taken, and that we shouldn't bother Laco with the details of this project until the specs for the watch have been completely finalized. That way, they can devote their energy to making all of the proposed design changes for the B-Uhr that are currently being discussed over in the Project thread.

There's no reason that we can't begin a discussion here, however, of what the specs for the blued hands should be, and any observations, ideas, suggestions, etc. would be welcome.

Also, anybody interested in getting in on this project should indicate their interest in this thread or in a PM to me. The feasibility and final price of this project I would think will depend on the number of sets of hands we eventually order from Laco.

Thanks...

John

[Sandy]

Count me in for the blued hands.

[bigwill]

Count me in for the blued hands.
Me too, please!

[Hary]

I'm in :-!

[reinman60]

I am wondering, whether Laco will get the blued hand from the same supplier as Stowa (Universo), which Joerg claimed one of the best hand manufacturer out there. If we want to have flame blued hand, then we should aim for the best :-)I agree with you completely on this and I hope everybody else involved in this project feels the same way. But everyone will have a say in this in this and in the end we'll go with the majority; I think that's only fair.

I do remember the thread where Joerg referenced Universo hands as being the best available, and I think we should pursue that option with Laco. Hopefully, it will be feasible from both in terms of both availability and cost.

I'm very enthusiastic about this project. I think that blued hands are not only beautiful, but will add a further dimension of historical authenticity to the watch which Laco will produce. I know that I don't have the same degree of expertise as many of the forum members, but I view this as a opportunity to learn and get input from all those who have lots of experience in this area. I'm sure the experience and judgment of the experts here will make this project a success, and that we'll all be satisfied with the results

[Frode]

I love this! :-d

2 questions:
A: I have a Seiko 007 that I retrofitted with custom hands I ordered from Hong Kong. I had a lokal watchmaker make the switch for me. This was no problem at all, and cost me 10 euros. So: does Laco have to make the switch for us, or is this a simple job you can do where you live? This is interesting because it is much less risky and cheaper having the hands sent via mail, that sending the watch back and forth.
B: IF we can do this without LACOs help, maybe we can contact Universo ourselves? (Need the specs. from Laco, though - diameters, fittings, so on). :think:

If Laco is to do the job, I'm inclined to let them keep the watch till the switch is done.

What do you all think? :-)

[Crusader]

I am in the EU (no customs hassle), so sending the watch back to Laco for a retrofit of the hands is going to be my option. :-)

[TIMEangel]

I am on board.

As I see it, I will retrofit the blued hands after 2 years. This could be easily done by a qualified watchmaker near where I live, during servicing and oil change.

No need to send the watch all the way to LACO and no issue on voiding the warranty.

[Erik_H]

I want the blued hands. I would probably have them installed here where I live.

Erik_H

[bigflax925]

I'm in.

I don't have a competent watchsmith locally, so I am with Frode on this: let Laco keep mine until the hands are completed and switched.

[Nalu]

I'm in.

I don't have a competent watchsmith locally, so I am with Frode on this: let Laco keep mine until the hands are completed and switched.

I agree. I'm in no rush anyway.

[reinman60]

I think that any competent local watchmaker would be able to change hands. I don't think it will be necessary to send the watch back to Laco.


IF we can do this without LACOs help, maybe we can contact Universo ourselves? (Need the specs. from Laco, though - diameters, fittings, so on). :think:As far as working with either Laco or Universo, I'll investigate both possibilities. It seems to me though, that we might want to do this through Laco, for several reasons.


First they have all of technical specifications which Universo would need to make compatible hands, and I sure they are very accustomed to dealing with hand makers.

Second, we already have the contacts at Laco, and they have proven very accommodating and responsive with respect to the B-Uhr project, and have gotten back to us with proposed design changes very quickly. The whole thing is going quicker and more smoothly than I would have thought, and if they maintain this level of service, the blued hand project should go just as well. :-)

[stuffler,mike]

I don´t think that Universo will sell to private customers. I once tried and if I remember right Louis tried too. We both failed. I prefer the Laco option given that some members already decided that Laco should keep their Sonderanfertigung until the other hands will arrive there.

[Mescalito]

i might be interested if the cost for the blued hands are not too high... ;-)

[bullitt731]

I would prefer to have the watch sent out with the blued hands and have no problem waiting the extra time.

[reinman60]

I've been advised by hotnerd that his contact at Laco, Peter Pfeiffer, is going on vacation for 2 weeks beginning this Friday, so I won't be able to begin our discussions with them until Monday, May 26.

That will leave plenty of time for anybody interested in providing design ideas to have their say. I would imagine that by the time Mr. Pfeiffer returns, we'll have a pretty good idea about what we all want the hands to look like.

So, now that the specs for the special edition have been finalized, lets all begin the design process for the flame blued hands!

[Paulo]

As you may all know, Chronoswiss has fantastic blued hands.

Mr. Gerd-R. Lang, Chronoswiss owner, list in the end of his book "Signs of the Times" all Chronoswiss suppliers (shows his confidence that he's providing much more than just the sum of the parts). For hands he lists Aguilla - Bienne and Universo - La Chaux-de-Fonds.

[pepellf]

Count with me too.

regards

[Biggie_Robs]

Count me in. |>

[daviswalker]

I'm interested as well. I'd probably choose to have them installed locally.

Dave

[garaventa]

I am also a member of the "blue hands fraction".

In my point of view they should have the shape like this;

http://i27.tinypic.com/35a299l.jpg

What´s your point of view??

Frank

[reinman60]

I am also a member of the "blue hands fraction".

In my point of view they should have the shape like this;

http://i27.tinypic.com/35a299l.jpg

What´s your point of view??

FrankI agree.:-! I like the fatter minute hand. I think our goal should be to get hands that are as close to the original as possible.

[Janne]

I agree.:-! I like the fatter minute hand. I think our goal should be to get hands that are as close to the original as possible.

Just a little, "nerdy" correction:
The hand is not fatter, it just appears to be. The widest part is 1/4 from tke tip of the hand, and on the Sonder... it is 1/4 from the centrum of the watch. You could say the hand is turned 180 degrees!
It looks thinner, yes, but it is an optical illusion!
I am in the process to determine the correct size on my own B-uhr.
The crystal makes it tricky, but I will be done tonight local time!
Greetings, NerdJanne :-!

[montana]

Please count me for blue hands! Thanks!

[inlanding]

Count me in also for blued hour/minute/second hands for the Laco Pilot SE

[yycwatchdog]

Count me in with Flamed-blue hands and I also don't mind the extra wait.

[reinman60]

By my count 24 people have indicated an interest in the blued hands project so far! :-!

[Lencoth]

Going for the blue hands too! Regards & thx.

[JCJM]

Count me in too :-d

[Janne]

Calculations of the "FAT MINUTE HAND" on a 1940ies Laco B-uhr
Total length from the central "pin" to the tip: 24.2mm
Length from central "pin" to widest part of hand: 15.8mm
Width of minute hand where widest: 3.5 - 3.6mm
Witdth of Blued border outside lume approx 0.47 mm, varies

The WIDEST part of the hand is about 65% of the distance out from the central pin.

To get the size for the Laco 42mm, I would need the size of the dial, the Diameter.

All the above measurements done through the crystal. The crystal is curved and has a severe bend towards the bezel at the end. But I did the measuring several times and took the average.
I hope this helps!
Greetings all! Janne

ADDITION I will recalculate the size for a 42mm Laco watch. Will post that later.

[Mescalito]

can anyone estimate the cost for the blued hands?

[Lencoth]

can anyone estimate the cost for the blued hands?

From the Quick-Reference Project Overview thread:

Blue hands (possible by Laco but with additional 30 Euros and 6 months)

[reinman60]

Calculations of the "FAT MINUTE HAND" on a 1940ies Laco B-uhr
Total length from the central "pin" to the tip: 24.2mm
Length from central "pin" to widest part of hand: 15.8mm
Width of minute hand where widest: 3.5 - 3.6mm
Witdth of Blued border outside lume approx 0.47 mm, varies

The WIDEST part of the hand is about 65% of the distance out from the central pin.

To get the size for the Laco 42mm, I would need the size of the dial, the Diameter.Thanks Janne, and great work. These calculations will I'm sure get us as close to having hands like the original as possible. When our contact at Laco returns, I'll get the diameter of the dial so that you can scale the measurements appropriately. Just wondering how much error do you think was induced by measuring through the crystal?


From the Quick-Reference Project Overview thread:

Blue hands (possible by Laco but with additional 30 Euros and 6 months)I'm not sure whether this price was for chemically blued or flame blued hands, I don't think that Laco was specific about this, and a hand manufacturer wasn't specified. It seems that the ideal set of hands would be flame blued hands from Universo, and we can't really know what the cost for these will be until we get a quote based on these specifications from Laco.

[Paulo]

Quantity will have a role in the price equation too.

Don't disregard the other supplier of hands for Chronoswiss besides Universo. According to Jörg Schauer, Universo is fully occupied. The Stowa FO hands had a 6 month wait.

BTW, could this drawing be of any help in the measurements (low-res scan from Martin, higher res scan available)?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/Lobebaer/Watches/fl23883resized.jpg

[Janne]

I'll get the diameter of the dial so that you can scale the measurements appropriately. Just wondering how much error do you think was induced by measuring through the crystal?

I do not think much. The only uncertain measurement I would say is the Length, due to the crystals shape.
I measured it several times, the figures are an average. That is why I feel confident to give so accurate numbers.
I tried to use the drawing, but the hands are quite different from the "real one". Thanks anyway!
Greetings Janne

[hwilsdorf]

Now that were paying for the deposit, just wondering when will the retro-fit blued hands come into the equation?

Cheers guys!

[reinman60]

Now that were paying for the deposit, just wondering when will the retro-fit blued hands come into the equation? We'll know a lot more when I start communicating with our contact at Laco, Peter Pfeiffer, who'll return from vacation on May 26.

[hwilsdorf]

understood mate cheers.

[reinman60]

Since Mr. Pfeiffer is still working on finalizing the dial, I haven't wanted to bother him about the blued hands.

Once the changes to the dial have been completed, I'll email him and we can get started on the blued hands project. Won't be long now. :-)

Cheers,

John

[frank_be]

Count me in for the blued hands...
Laco can send them afterwards; My local watchmaker will remove the plain black ones with the blued ones.

Greetings,
Frank

[JCJM]

Could someone please do a PS job to see how the hands would look on the mockup?

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-1/1131934/Laco_B-watch_may30.jpg

Thanks,

[reinman60]

Could someone please do a PS job to see how the hands would look on the mockup?That's one of the things I'm planning on asking Laco to do for us once the project gets going and we have a preliminary design for the hands. :-!

[Paulo]

That won' give an idea. Blued hands have different shades depending on light angle and that isn't easy to show on a mock-up.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/paulo60s/N%20Stowa/Grupo002s.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/paulo60s/N%20Stowa/FO004s.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/paulo60s/N%20Stowa/StowaMO005s.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/paulo60s/N%20Stowa/StowaMO014s.jpg

[reinman60]

That won' give an idea. Blued hands have different shades depending on light angle and that isn't easy to show on a mock-up.True.. We won't be able to get an idea of the color, but a mock-up will show the shape of the hands.

I'm not sure that it is possible to show all of the color variations of blued hands under different lighting conditions and when viewed at different angles in any series of photographs. I think if we get high quality real flame blued hands, they will exhibit the desired qualities and variation of color under different lighting conditions that we all want. One of the things I plan to ask Laco is if there is any record of who produced the hands for the originals from the 1940's. I think it would be cool not only to have a B-Uhr from one of the original producers, but also a set of hands also made by the same people who made the original hands. b-)

Cheers,
John

[JCJM]

I have two things to add which I haven´t noticed been discussed yet:

1) if we want the hands to be an exact match shouldnt there be holes in the shorter end of the second hand?

2) I personally hate mismatched lume on dials and hands - is there a possibility of matching the intensity and color or the lume?

Thanks,

[Janne]

I have two things to add which I haven´t noticed been discussed yet:

1) if we want the hands to be an exact match shouldnt there be holes in the shorter end of the second hand?

2) I personally hate mismatched lume on dials and hands - is there a possibility of matching the intensity and color or the lume?

Thanks,

1): Should have ONE centraly placed hole, IF such second hand can be found. I thought we only want a Blued minute and hour hand?
On the original, the second hand has a black portion, not blued !

2): Good idea!

[frank_be]

2) I personally hate mismatched lume on dials and hands - is there a possibility of matching the intensity and color or the lume?

Thanks,

I've seen some watches having this problem, and that is indeed very ugly.

If both dial and hands use the same Superluminova, at least the color should match. The layerthickness of the paint will determine the glow intensity.

I don't think Laco will do things wrong.

Greetings,
Frank

[JCJM]

I've seen some watches having this problem, and that is indeed very ugly. (...) I don't think Laco will do things wrong.

Laco indeed knows their bizz and as a matter of fact I will show this project to my students as a premium example how companies could and should interact in the electronic medium with their customers (I am a teacher of marketing), gaining not only first hand customer information but deepening and differentiating the customer experience & relationship at the same time, getting lots of free publicity and goodwill while doing it where it most counts - right here where the customers interact with each other. Nuff about that, lets proceed to the lume issue:

I´ve seen badly mismatched lume on many occasions and the price of the watch doesnt correlate much to whether there is a mismatch or not. - On most watches there is a definitive mismatch and if Laco uses outsourcing for the hands (speaking especially of the retrofitted handset) there is a big possibility it could "go wrong". - Then again this project presents such a great bang for the hard earned buck that expectations should be kept reasonable. Nevertheless as we are yet on the planning stage in my opinion getting the lumes match would be a pretty neat way of icing the cake so to speak :-!

[Paulo]

:oops: Forgot about the shape! o| :-x

[Janne]

:oops: Forgot about the shape! o| :-x

I did not!
We should still try to get the minute hand that has it widest area according to my calculations- which I will finish when I know the diameter if the crystal and dial!
The point about the lume is important.
Also, the "blueing" is very dark on the original. I do absolutely not want the very light colour as posted earlier on a pic. Looks frankly awful!
Greetings Janne

[Paulo]

Also, the "blueing" is very dark on the original. I do absolutely not want the very light colour as posted earlier on a pic.

Not sure if the darker blued tone has to do with the watch's age, can someone comment on this?

[Janne]

If it is the same process used on guns, the "blueness" does not change. Do not know on watch hands though!

[JCJM]

Not sure if the darker blued tone has to do with the watch's age, can someone comment on this?

The color depends on the angle from where the light hits it. Some pics shown have had hands that have been chemically blued and the effect is different to heat blued hands (overall darker, yet changing its tone depending on the angle).

[Janne]

As long as they do not look like the hands in post no 12, second and third watch from the top I am happy.
Just wrong, too light. The original has a "gun blue" shade to I am sure you know the shade of!
It is damn difficult to discuss a colour verbally.
Check out the pics on the old 55 mm in previous posts concerning the WUS LE.
As you can see, it looks normally black, but dark blue from an angle:
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk70/jpultr/DSC01521-1.jpg?t=1212539285

[Nalu]

If it is the same process used on guns, the "blueness" does not change. Do not know on watch hands though!

Firearm bluing is chemical bluing (although it does involve heat also), as opposed to flame bluing, which gives a varied and unpredictable finish.

Here's a PS mockup, the effect is very subtle because, as Jussi points out and Janne shows, the heat-treated hands need light to 'show their stuff'. Heat-blued hands are all unique, like fingerprints, because the steel reacts differently according to carbon content, degree of heat and time of exposure. This is also why heat-blued hands are dear: the rejection rate is high and the process is labour intensive.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e304/ColMiller/Laco/Laco_B-watch_WithHeat-bluedhands.jpg

With flame bluing, there is generally a lot of black and blue to the finish, with hints of purple and even green in the right light.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e304/ColMiller/Omega%206B159/6B-159Hands8.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e304/ColMiller/Omega%206B159/6B-159Hands4.jpg

Both chemical and flame bluing were techniques established well before the original B-uhrs were made. As such, barring a chemical analysis or an anecdote from one of the watchmakers, it may not be possible to know which is 'correct' for the watch hands in this case. I'd prefer flame-blued hands because I think they are more interesting.

[gclin]

Count me in! I think the blue hands will really add a new dimension to the watch...

[Frode]

Count me in! I think the blue hands will really add a new dimension to the watch...

I agreed!

Not getting blued hands on this one is like getting a Ferrari with a small engine! :-d

[JCJM]

As this is a side project I wonder wouldnt it be good to have the option of having flame blued "regular" hands as well? - not all like the fat minute hand b-) I must say that even though the fatter minute hand is cool on the long run I may prefer the regular hands as the fat minute hand appears a bit "bulky" compared to the more "airy" regular option.

Fat hand or not, they must be flame blued and it would be good to have the option for those too who prefer the slimmer look.

;-)

[Janne]

In my opinion, I think a thinner hour hand will destroy the look of the watch. We are after all trying to have visually a 100% accurate replica ( except size and the other limitations) and a thin hour hand is just not right! I think we have suceeded very well with this task.
You can of course mail mr Pfeiffer and inquire, but I guess it can be a bit costly.
It is bulky so the Navigators could see the hour hand quickly under bad conditions and stress.
But I hope Laco can source a correct Minute hand, not like the one on the mock-up.
That will make the Hour hand look more in harmony with the Minute hand. If you look closely on the latest mock up:
The Hour hands widest point is closer to the tip than the centre.
The existing Minute hands widest point is closer to the centre than the tip.
No visual harmony at all! <|
(I know, you guys think: Here he goes again, lets hope he will not do his damn calculations! ;-) )
Greetings Janne

[reinman60]

I wonder wouldnt it be good to have the option of having flame blued "regular" hands as well?We are after all trying to have visually a 100% accurate replica It seems we have two different concepts of what this project is about. My understanding of the purpose of this project is that we are trying to have the most historically accurate hands that we can possibly have. The watch as we'll receive it from Laco will have the thinner hands, and I think that we should have the "fatter" hands here, as they are the more authentic. We're trying to improve on the already fantastic watch that Laco is making for us, and that think that in this project, we should strive for as much historical accuracy as possible. :-!

P.S. I've delayed contacting Laco until now so as not to overburden Mr. Pfeiffer, because he has been busy with last minute design revisions to the watch. At this point,It seems that the design is finalized, and production well underway. I'll email him on Monday and give him a preliminary idea of what we are looking for in terms of blued hands, and we'll get this project officially underway.

The preliminary specs as I understand them:

Real flamed blued hands from the best maker possible
As historically accurate as possible, using a 1940's Laco B-Uhr
as a model

What I'd like to find out:

How long the lead time will be
What, if any, would be the minimum number of hands necessary to
complete the order
Cost

I'll post again as soon as I get a reply. Any comments, or suggestions would be most welcome.

Cheers,
John

[Crusader]

Just to clarify: While there are indeed Laco B-Uhren Baumuster B both with the wider (sword-type) minute hand and the narrower hand which is identical to the minute hand used on the Baumuster A, the former is more authentic for the Baumuster B dial IMHO, and more harmonious design-wise, what with emphasizing the outer dial.

It has been my understanding also that the standard hands would have the narrow minute hand, and the flame-blued hands would have the characteristic sword-type, tip-heavy minute hand.

[Janne]

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk70/jpultr/DSC01521-1.jpg?t=1212539285

Just a reminder how "the real ones" look like!
This is what we should try to achieve, I think.

[reinman60]

It has been my understanding also that the standard hands would have the narrow minute hand, and the flame-blued hands would have the characteristic sword-type, tip-heavy minute hand.That's been my understanding also.


http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk70/jpultr/DSC01521-1.jpg?t=1212539285

Just a reminder how "the real ones" look like!
This is what we should try to achieve, I think. 8 Hours Ago 06:18I agree. In fact, I'll send this picture along with my email to Mr. Pfeiffer, so he'll know what we're trying to achieve.

Cheers,
John

[Janne]

Just to clarify the pic. It is taken straight on, with the light source from behind my head to the left, it was for showing the blueness.
Sorry about the crap quality.

[Nalu]

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk70/jpultr/dsc01521-1.jpg?t=1212539285

Just A Reminder How "the Real Ones" Look Like!
This Is What We Should Try To Achieve, I Think.


+1

[JCJM]

Well,

I still hold my opinion that it would be neat for those people who prefer the thinner minute hand look to have the possibility of having them in flame blued version also. This has nothing to do with "historical this or that", but everything to do with subjective taste. Thats all. It was just an suggestion - it doesnt rob anybody from anything. Now, If there is only one style of the flame blued hands to become I can live easy with either style. If I must choose between the two styles mentioned, it´ll be the fat design.

Somebody might prefer the thinner look and if there are hands like that already in existence(?) that just must be blued, I cant see a problem in that. Asking is free. Personally if there would be both variations available I would buy both handsets just in case I want to have a different look later on. But, this is just what I think and what I would do.

Thanks,

[Janne]

As I said before, contact Mr Pfeiffer by Email and ask. Alternative route can be to get a couple of spare "blackened " thin hands from Laco, get a watchmaker to polish off the black paint, heat blue and lume them, and let him change them. Might even be cheaper than to have Laco make a "one off" for you.
But, thinking while typing, if Laco will commision/make a limited run of the heat blued THICK hands, (because they are hand blued,) it should be quite easy for them to do the same to the thinner hands. IF there is a thinner Hour hand.
You can possibly find a thinner Hour hand in one of the watch part suppliers, like ofrei etc. But I am not into working on my watches, so I leave that as a hypothesis!
And JCJM, I recommend you read all the 779 or so posts in the discussion about the design. ALL suggestions/ideas, (bad and good) are ok, it can only add to the uniquedness of this LE! :-!

[Paulo]

As said, ask Laco, the worst you can get is a no...

I just fear that having different versions will divide people and we'll might end up without "critical mass" to allow the project to keep within reasonable budget. :think:

[Crusader]

I just fear that having different versions will divide people and we'll might end up without "critical mass" to allow the project to keep within reasonable budget. :think:

Good point, Paulo.

Also, the more complex a project becomes, the more likely that it will be turned down.

I'm not saying this specifically re Laco as they have shown, IMHO, a very customer-oriented and benevolent and long-suffering attitude, but as a general observation. I have seen many good projects falter that needn't have had they been suggested as a less complex undertaking at first. ;-)

[JCJM]

But, thinking while typing, if Laco will commision/make a limited run of the heat blued THICK hands, (because they are hand blued,) it should be quite easy for them to do the same to the thinner hands. IF there is a thinner Hour hand.

This is exactly what I meant - if they have them, it´s a no fuss operation.

BAnd JCJM, I recommend you read all the 779 or so posts in the discussion about the design. ALL suggestions/ideas, (bad and good) are ok, it can only add to the uniquedness of this LE! :-!

Thank you Janne but I have already read all the 779 or so posts in the discussion about the design. I think I have a good enough handle of it as is already.

I just fear that having different versions will divide people and we'll might end up without "critical mass" to allow the project to keep within reasonable budget. :think:

They are not likely to "pull the plug" at this stage as that should only get all these committed Laco aficionados on a bad mood, which is something they do not want to do. - It does´nt mean that we should exploit their willingness to get this project "right" though. - All parties must gain something positive, otherwise there is no point on a project like this. Speaking of which, as it appears I am about the only one who thinks it would be cool to have the option for the thinner flame blued hands maybe we should just drop the idea.

Cheers,

[reinman60]

I still hold my opinion that it would be neat for those people who prefer the thinner minute hand look to have the possibility of having them in flame blued version also.I'll certainly ask Laco about making a set of flame blued hands in the thinner version also. I think it would depend on
the number of hands would constitute the minimum order. That's one of the questions I am planning on asking them.

I'd like to get an adea of how many people would like a set of hands with the thinner minute hand, so if you'd like that please post and express you prefenece.

Cheers,
John

[Janne]

A stupid and I am sure unneccesary question:
If we opt to have the blued hands delivered and then fitted by a local watch meister, will that void the Laco warranty?
Also, if we send the watch to Laco, (to be retrofitted with the new hands), will the watch be waterproof tested and warrantied again?

Size of blued hands: "Top heavy" Minute hand + "fat" Hour hand, as per Original.
Good night all! Janne

[reinman60]

I've received a reply from Mr. Pfeiffer. He agrees with Joerg Schauer that Universo hands are the best out there. Since Universo is part of the Swatch Group, they supply Group companies first, and then outside firms. Mr. Pfeiffer has already contacted Universo about the price and delivery time and has sent me this initial mock up. Pretty fast work, I'd say:

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn280/reinman60/Zeiger_Flieger-1.jpg


Cheers,

John
http://forums.watchuseek.com/IMG%5Dhttp://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn280/reinman60/Zeiger_Flieger-1.jpg%5B/IMG%5D

[Paulo]

Don't forget Aguilla... ;-)
(quoting myself)

As you may all know, Chronoswiss has fantastic blued hands.

Mr. Gerd-R. Lang, Chronoswiss owner, list in the end of his book "Signs of the Times" all Chronoswiss suppliers (shows his confidence that he's providing much more than just the sum of the parts). For hands he lists Aguilla - Bienne and Universo - La Chaux-de-Fonds.

[Crusader]

That's great news ... Laco comes through again! :-!

Not sure about the minute hand's shape, though ... I think the widest point should be nearer the top, and perhaps less wide. But I'll leave that to the pros on this forum. :-)

P.S.: I'm changing the title, as the project is no longer "in waiting". ;-)

[Janne]

Just to tell you that I will be doing some calculations as soon as I can tonight.
Visually they are not too bad, possibly a little too wide. Possibly.
But, we cannot get them 100%, we have to accept hands "in production", I think.
Incredibly quick work from Mr Pfeiffer.
He should become an Honorary WUS Member!

[Paulo]

If those hands are "in production" I'll take them right away! :-d :-!

[reinman60]

I just did a few quick calculations as to where the widest part of the minute hand occurs, and also regarding the overall ratio of width to length, using Mr. Pfeiffer's mock up and Janne's photo of the hands on the original B-Uhr.These seem to bear out the observations that the widest point is nearer the end of the hands on the B-Uhr, and also that the hands are relatively a little narrower.

Mock Up: widest point occurs at about 42% of the overall length from the end.

B-Uhr: widest point occurs at about 35% of the overall length from the end.

Conclusion: widest point of the minute hand should be closer to the end of the hand. It should be .35x12=4.2mm from the end of the hand instead of 5mm.


Mock Up: At the widest point, the width of the hand is 25% of the overall length.

B-Uhr: At the widest point, the width of the hand is about 15% of the overall length.

Conclusion: The width of the hand should be made relatively narrower.
Since the hand is 12 mm. in length, it should be .15x12=1.8 mm. wide, instead of 3mm.

I hope I've made some sense here. :-s

Cheers,
John

[Janne]

[quote=Janne;1003891]Calculations of the "FAT MINUTE HAND" on a 1940ies Laco B-uhr
Total length from the central "pin" to the tip: 24.2mm
Length from central "pin" to widest part of hand: 15.8mm
Width of minute hand where widest: 3.5 - 3.6mm
Witdth of Blued border outside lume approx 0.47 mm, varies

The WIDEST part of the hand is about 65% of the distance out from the central pin.(quote)

Here are the masurements again. I suspected the proportions were off on the hands!
Thanks for the calculations, Reinman! I will have a couple of beers instead!
Janne

[reinman60]

Total length from the central "pin" to the tip: 24.2mm
Length from central "pin" to widest part of hand: 15.8mm
Width of minute hand where widest: 3.5 - 3.6mm
Witdth of Blued border outside lume approx 0.47 mm, varies

The WIDEST part of the hand is about 65% of the distance out from the central pin.Your calculations seem to agree with mine. I couldn't know what the actual measurements were on the B-Uhr since I don't have the watch, so I just used ratios of measurements taken from the picture, then applied these to the dimensions of the hands in the mock up. We seem to have come up with the same numbers, though, and I think that these calculations will result in a properly proportioned minute hand.

Doing the same calculations for the hour hand, I get the following:

Mock up: Widest point occurs at 46% of the overall length from the end.

B-Uhr: Widest point occurs at 49% of the overall length from the end.

Conclusion: This seems close enough that I think we should leave it alone.
The 3% difference could well be caused by any small errors I made trying to measure from a photo.



Mock up: At the widest point the width of the hand is 46% as wide as long.

B-Uhr: At the widest point, the hand is 50% as wide as long.

Conclusion: This would result in the hand being 3.25 mm. wide as opposed to 3 mm. at its widest. This is such a small amount that I'm sure it would be unnoticeable, and again the difference could be the result of measurement error. I think the hour hand is so close that we should just leave it alone.

I will have a couple of beers instead!Sounds like a good idea. I'll be doing the same shortly. :-!

Cheers,
John

[inlanding]

If it is remotely possible, perhaps posting a few images of the exact dial with replica blued hands of various hand sizes superimposed might prove to be worthwhile.

If the blued hands are made available prior to the finish work, then perhaps they can be as part of the original release? If not, I'll get them anyway and have a watchmaker place them and recert the integrity the watch.

This is really getting good...You guys are doing great work!!
Glen

[Janne]

Reinman60! Agree 100% with your calculations and conclusions! :-!

Inlanding! Very good idea! :-!

I enjoyed a couple of Red Stripe. Hydration and nourishment in the same bottle!

[frank_be]

If not, I'll get them anyway and have a watchmaker place them and recert the integrity the watch.

And if it really takes long I will replace the hands myself, because by that time I will probably have my degree of watchmaker. I'm starting my evening courses next september. :-d

Greetings,
Frank

[Janne]

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn280/reinman60/Zeiger_Flieger-1.jpg


I just realised that these and my B-uhr measurement parameters differ.
I measured the B-uhr hands from the center of the pin that attaches them to the movement. The above measures from where the tube ends.

[BRUCE]

Just looking at the Universo hands as shown here, is the length correct for our watch? Without having the acutal dial, just asking, does 12mm seem correct for a dial with a radius of perhaps 18mm. I see that the hands are measured from the tube as Janne notes, but still seems short to me. The minute hand on my 42mm Pilot watch with a similar (B) dial is 16mm in length. At this length, the hand tip overlaps the minute marker just slightly, which is the way I think I see the historical examples shown in the discussion thread. The more modern watches I see seem to have shorter minute hands that do not come close to the minute marks. Just an observation and food for thought.


bruce

[Paulo]

Great observation Bruce. That shows the importance of a mock up with the hands on the dial, to assess the proportions.

[inlanding]

If it is remotely possible, perhaps posting a few images of the exact dial with replica blued hands of various hand sizes superimposed might prove to be worthwhile.

If the blued hands are made available prior to the finish work, then perhaps they can be as part of the original release? If not, I'll get them anyway and have a watchmaker place them and recert the integrity the watch.

This is really getting good...You guys are doing great work!!
Glen

Look forward to seeing what comes of this...very exciting

Glen

[thodgins]

Here is a pic of the Wempe (43mm I believe) and the hands seem to be the right length.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v83/abraxas/No2/No3/b4.jpg
Found on TZ-UK

Another look at the Wempe.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b112/pjbocean/111_1126.jpg
Pic from Pjbocean

[Paulo]

Follows the basic rule of thumb in my book: lume (marks) touching (hands) lume. ;-)

[thodgins]

The lume on the Stowa FO only touches the numbers and 5 minute markers. It doesn't bother me that the lume doesn't touch every minute mark. At least the hand extends all the way to the outer line.

http://www.german-watches.com/pix/a/z/fliegeroriginallimitiert/b0.jpg

[Paulo]

Agreed, should have said "considering the large width near the end the hands..."

Due to its thin style, if the Stowa's hand lume touched the minute marks the hand would surpass the dial limits.

[Janne]

The Wempe hands look very correct, widest part where it should be etc. I wonder who makes them?
the Stowa FE minute hand is of the wrong type, widest part close to the center.

[Paulo]

Stowa FO is a Baumaster A, not B.

[Janne]

Yes, what I meant is that they are of the wrong type for "our" watch!

[thodgins]

I was just using the Stowa to illustrate the lume on the hand and where the lume should touch.

[Janne]

And, with your pic, you have also reminded and shown us how beautiful the blued hand will be! :-!
It is just too easy to settle with the black hands when the watch arrives.....

[Paulo]

I understood your point Tod, but it really depends of the "distance" of the lume end and the hand end, which in the case of narrow ended hands is a big distance (which shows on your great shot) and in the case of broad ended hands, like the Baumuster B, is much smaller.

If the lume of a Baumuster B hand just touches the 5 minute marks the hand will look too small for the dial.

[thodgins]

I think Wempe did a great job with its hands and I would use that as a guide for the hands on this project.

I forgot to put that the pic came from Stowa. My bad. It isn't my great shot, I totally forgot to put the source.

[frank_be]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/frank_be/Laco/MinutenDialcomparison13.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/frank_be/Laco/MinutenDialwithHands05.jpg

Please have a closer look at the hands;

I will forward these CAD-files to Laco in order to get the blued hands process on rails again.

Please feel free to comment; Changes can still be made.



Greetings,
Frank

[Janne]

It looks like the widest part of the Minute Hand is too close to the tip!
according to my calculations, it should be 35% from the tip. Calculating between the tip and the center hole.

[frank_be]

Hello Janne,

I've changed some small things and indeed it looks better, maybe even perfect now.

I've changed the tip angle from 25° to 22° and your calculated 35% was IMO just a bit too much. I believe it is now +- 31%. In fact the bending point is at 5.60mm from the tip (with a hand length to the center of 18.00mm)

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/frank_be/Laco/MinuteHandCorrection01.jpg

What do you think of it?

Greetings,
Frank

[frank_be]

I think this picture makes the comparison even easier...

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/frank_be/Laco/MinuteHandCorrection02.jpg


Greetings,
Frank

[Janne]

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk70/jpultr/DSC01521-1.jpg?t=1212539285
Here is my unrestored hour hand, maybe you can do the calculations on it to confirm?
Do not forget that Garaventas B-uhr is a (superbly) restored one, the hands are possibly changed/replaced!

[JCJM]

I think this picture makes the comparison even easier...

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/frank_be/Laco/MinuteHandCorrection02.jpg

IMHO the minute hand looks a bit too "narrow". I personally would prefer the wide part to be about in the middle of the 55 marker resulting on a bit wider minute hand and less point heavy looks. Notice also that the second hand is well past the outer ring as is the point (difficult to see from the pic) of the minute hand also - it is not touching the outer ring, it is a little bit past it (or then again maybe it is just the angle the photo has been taken).

One thing that makes the pic a bit odd IMO is the fact that on the mock up the blued portion of the hands appear to be somewhat thinner than on the actual hands of the real thing. If I could make only one suggestion it would be the widening of the blued portion of the hands.

Just my 0.02

:thanks

[Frode]

I love the blue hands, but could do without the "tail" of the seconds hand, historical correctness nonwithstanding.

I'll bow to the majority if need be, but I guess getting a more "normal" second hand could be an option that was easy to provide? :think:

[Janne]

D.I.Y ? Wire cutter? ;-)

[frank_be]

IMHO the minute hand looks a bit too "narrow". I personally would prefer the wide part to be about in the middle of the 55 marker resulting on a bit wider minute hand and less point heavy looks. Notice also that the second hand is well past the outer ring as is the point (difficult to see from the pic) of the minute hand also - it is not touching the outer ring, it is a little bit past it (or then again maybe it is just the angle the photo has been taken).

One thing that makes the pic a bit odd IMO is the fact that on the mock up the blued portion of the hands appear to be somewhat thinner than on the actual hands of the real thing. If I could make only one suggestion it would be the widening of the blued portion of the hands.

Just my 0.02

:thanks

I think you are correct on the fact that the minute hand - just as the second hand - goes a bit further than the outside ring. I just didn't draw it that way because I don't know the inside diameter of the watchcase. I also don't know what tollerance the hands should have to the case.

For the exact thicknesses of the metal of the hands I would like to have a beter picture of the hands especially the hour hand. I also think the hands need more "flesh". I will change that later and post new pictures. (Not today)

Thanks for the comments. I, just as you guys, want this watch to be "perfect".

Greetings,
Frank

[Janne]

FrankB! You are putting in a lot of time redesigning the hands. As I posted on the Dial thread, will the hands be completely custom made for this subProject, then blued and lumed, or selected to match as close as possible to match your design from an existing supply?

Re my earlier post re widest part on minute hand:
If the proportions are changed on the dial for increased legibility , we cannot just "copy" the hand from the 55mm and scale them down. The widest part on the hand should be touching the same area on the numbers as on the 55mm. That is I think more important (aesthetics) than an exact, scaled down hand.
I hope this rambling makes sence to you!
Again, bl..dy good work you are doing there FrankB! Janne

[frank_be]

Re my earlier post re widest part on minute hand:
If the proportions are changed on the dial for increased legibility , we cannot just "copy" the hand from the 55mm and scale them down. The widest part on the hand should be touching the same area on the numbers as on the 55mm. That is I think more important (aesthetics) than an exact, scaled down hand.
I hope this rambling makes sence to you!
Again, bl..dy good work you are doing there FrankB! Janne

I get your point... It feels a bit like H0 and 00 scaled trains.

I'm concentrating on the angles that the hands have. And then I "play" with the lengths until it "looks and feels " OK.

We will come to a good model, I'm shure. Is your wife already back with the camera? :-d

Greetings,
Frank

[Janne]

No, FrankB! Another week to go!
And she is bringing me the Breitling me father-in-law is giving me! His eyes are getting weak, and has difficulty reading the time! :-!:-!
She gave our old camera to him. And I will buy him a new watch.
The new camera, we are buying it here. Almost half price on the same model here. Taxfree here, you see!
And then I can start posting better pics!

I really hope Laco will use all the work done here on WUS (specially by you) in their normal production. It will elevate the quality and authencity of their products!

Please do not spend too much of your valuable time on the adjustments. Once we have the watch fitted with the blued hands, we will not see those minute differences, I am 100% sure.
The overall impression is what counts, and, I have to say, we (you) have done a tremendous improvement already!
Scaled down to 38-39mm, those 1/10 of mm are not noticable! Yes, you see them on the screen, but not on the watch!
Go and enjoy the sun instead!
greetings Jan

[reinman60]

Sorry for the lack of updates. I've been away for the last 4 days and haven't had internet access.

I've been waiting to hear back from Mr. Pfeiffer, who in turn is waiting for a reply from Universo. He wanted to get some information about costs, etc. before he does any further work on the hands, and wants to see what they can provide without having to make a completely new set of dies, which could be rather expensive given the number of hands that will be made for this project.

He did indicate that he took the measurements of the hands from a set of originals in the Laco museum, and that he played with them in order to come up with something that looked right.

If the proportions are changed on the dial for increased legibility , we cannot just "copy" the hand from the 55mm and scale them down.He also said essentially the same thing, that the hands would not have the proper look if they were simply scaled down from the originals. He thought that the hands in the mock -up which he sent us were probably a little too wide, and would need to be refined further, but that he wanted to hear back from Universo before he proceeded any further.

Frank, I think you redesign of the hands look great. Have you sent these to Laco already. I think the only question here is can this design be produced for a reasonable cost.

I've emailed Mr Pfeiffer again, and will post back as soon as I get a reply.

Cheers,

John

[frank_be]

Some minor changes to the hands...

I think everything is the way it should be... ;-)

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/frank_be/Laco/MinutenDialcomparison14.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b247/frank_be/Laco/MinutenDialwithHands06.jpg

As ever, please feel free to comment...


Greetings,
Frank

PS: I just e-mailed Herr Pfeiffer the CAD files.

[Janne]

PERFECT!
Gives more area for the lume, which will make the LumePervs really happy!
For us Oldies, easier to see and more readable!
I scaled the dial down to 36-37mm and it looks really good!
Off Topic: You have an interesting Collection,FrankB! I just noticed. Any chance of pics?

[frank_be]

Now al depends if alternative hands will be available... I just spoke with Herr Pfeiffer and they were still waiting for some offers from hand manufacturers.

Tomorrow I will get an answer from Lacher if my data is "usefull" :-!


Greetings,
Frank

[Erik_H]

I like the hands a lot. Outstanding job, Frank!

Erik_H

[JCJM]

This dial and hands are perfect.

I am wiling to pay a heavy price to get those hands... Lets just hope that they will custom make them for the project. - They can use the design later on for their other flieger models you know (IMO that should be told to Laco...).

Thanks,

[Paulo]

Outstanding work Frank! :-!

[yenfoolun]

look perfect. I'm definitely in this time!

but i worry the durability of flame blued hand!

this is what happened to my prs 20 italian le blued swan neck regulator!
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o210/yenfoolun/DSC_0157.jpg

i was told this is because of humidity in my country and different of temperature when i put inside my cold safe, condensation water can cause corrosion!

unless the hands is chemical treated!

[Janne]

I think, Yenfoolun, that you have a problem with that watch! It should have functioning seals to exclude humidity. I think it has a WR of 30-50m?
Those screws are chemically blued. No rust! Is the Swan neck PAINTED blue? The proper blueing (heat or chemical) protects the metal from rusting (thats why guns are blued) and to get rusty like that indicates poor quality or heavy water ingress.
Do you by any chance open your watches yourself ? Or have a watch maker that is sloppy, sweaty or that works in a non AC enviroment?
I live in a climate similar to yours, I wear Rubber surgical gloves OVER my watches for 8 hours each day, and they are fine!
Trust German Engineering! It will NOT happen!

[yenfoolun]

it was rated 100m WR... i'm sad bout it...
i posted this thread in tz uk, this is the link
http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=49572

i like blued hand... so i really hope this project can tie together with watch production, so it can come together with watch!

[Janne]

Myself, I am going to let Laco keep my watches untill the hands are ready and can be changed.
Nothing beats a Factory installation, and the warranty will not be affected!
WR 100 meters? I think you have a big problem with the watch! Do not even think to immerse it in water! I would run to a good watchmaker, or send it back if still under warranty! Good luck, Janne

[yenfoolun]

Myself, I am going to let Laco keep my watches untill the hands are ready and can be changed.
Nothing beats a Factory installation, and the warranty will not be affected!
WR 100 meters? I think you have a big problem with the watch! Do not even think to immerse it in water! I would run to a good watchmaker, or send it back if still under warranty! Good luck, Janne


i think i'll do the same... let laco changed the blued hand!

[Paulo]

If that will be possible I'll certainly choose that option too. :-)

[frank_be]

I have some comments on the blueing.

It doesn't mean that when it looks blue it is steel underneath.

Luckily there are modern techniques that also allow brass to be blued. I have a perfect example; My Omega Moonphase. It also has so-called blued hands but in fact they aren't steel. Same for the blueed indexes on the dial.

There are some advantages that come allong with the use of brass instead of steel:

Corrosion protection is MUCH better.
Magnetism has NO influence on brass.
Price is also better for brass-blued in comparison to steel-blued.

So IF we get blued hands in the end, they will probably be brass-blued instead of steel-blued and only your wallet will know the difference.
Also the delivery time for "the real stuff" is at least 6-9 months.

Hope this helps a bit.

Greetings,
Frank

[Crusader]

Please note that frank_be has now taken over the flame-blued hands project from reinman60.

Thank you very much, John, for piloting the project through the shoals of its initial stages, and good luck to you, Frank, for bringing it to the desired end!

[Janne]

Any News from Lacher?

[hotnerd]

Mr. Pfeiffer is on holiday this week. He will return next week :-)

Cheers,
Bhanu

[hwilsdorf]

I believe it is also sort of a "watch week" holiday over there? Some taking three weeks off? Correct me if im wrong.

[Crusader]

I believe it is also sort of a "watch week" holiday over there? Some taking three weeks off? Correct me if im wrong.

It's the height of the holiday season in Germany, indeed. ;-)

[CKH2359]

hi,

i was just wondering what the procedure would be for getting the blued hands on the watch. should those who intend to change to blued hands indicate to Laco so that the watches don't get accidentally shipped out?

I am for the blued hands and not in a hurry to get the watch - 35/50.

Thanks for the attention.

[Frode]

"With the blued hands we have 2 options:

Steel hands that are thermically blued "the real deal". Swiss made, delivery time aprox. 18! weeks. Price 108 EUR +VAT (19% in Germany)

OR

Brass hands that are painted translucent blue. Made in Asia, delivery time is aprox. 8 weeks. Price is 9.80 EUR + VAT (19% in Germany). Though the word "painted" doesn't sound very promising, the result with this process is also very very close to the real steel version. delivery time here is aprox. 8 weeks."

Hmmmm. :think: "The real real" I know from my Stowa Airman and Antea.

Anyone whom can post a pic. of a blue painted brass hand? :thanks

[Janne]

Not easy, but I would not mind the cheap hands. We have achieved a really nice watch on a budget, I just feel spending 108 Euro plus DHL fees is too much. But I accept the Majority decision.

[Frode]

I have checked out the "brass-blue" hands on the Omega Moonphase. I suspect the Debaufre B-uhr uses the same technique.

I don't know.... the blue is TOO blue, if get my drift.

If "brass-blue" is the consensus, I'd get it simply because it is cheap, but I might just leave the black hands on. (Have the hands shipped here, and switch if I desire at my local watchshop.)

108 euro + VAT for hands alone is a hard sale, IMHO....:-(

[Mescalito]

although i'd like to get the "real real hands", i don't think i will or would be able to spend 1/6 of the price for the whole watch just for hands :roll:... so i think i might prefer the painted ones...

[Erik_H]

Can we get an estimate of how many they need for making the two options? If only a few opts for the thermically blued steel hands, can it still be done? I would still consider getting the real thing, and hope Frank would help finalizing the design. I do not want painted hands.

Erik_H

[DeDe]

hi,

its possible to order first a series of the painted blue hands and look if we like them. If not, can we order the real blue hands? For the price for the real blues, we can buy some more painted and try to blue them at home :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVg1c8JJzxs :-d (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVg1c8JJzxs:-d)

[Biggie_Robs]

108 euro + VAT for hands alone is a hard sale, IMHO....:-(

I agree with this 100%!

[frank_be]

Hi everyone,

No hurry to decide on this subject.

The term "painted" is somewhat wrongly chosen. Better would be "colored".
The colored brass version is indeed a bit more blue when you look at direct reflected light. Steel hands will be darker. But I can assure you that the overal impression of colored brass hands is very good.

On the other hand, imagine you were to put other hands on a Breitling and they were costing you e.g. 150 EUR. Wouldn't you do it then? What I mean is, there's no better thing than the real thing. And the price is sometimes relative.
And I think it's wrong to compare the watch price to the price of the hands seperately. we are very lucky to have a custom watch at this price in the first place.
BTW: The price would be only half per set if Laco would order 300 sets of hands...

Personaly I haven't decided yet what version I would prefer. Price is not that important, because when buying premium quality the price is the first thing you forget.

Delivery time is not an issue either. The long waiting makes the reward even better.

Universo hands are absolutely gorgeous. But they have their price.
(Just have look at the Stowa Flieger Original or Marine Original)

Steel hands can rust.

Brass hands can't rust.

This watch is a keeper for many of us... so why going through all the hassle of getting the perfect dial and case, and compromise on the hands?

I think my mind is made up after all...

:-d I prefer the steel hands. :-d



Greetings,
Frank

[CKH2359]

The waiting time (another 4 months!) and cost of thermically blued hands are beyond my budget and time.

Some questions:

1. How long will the painted blue on a brass hand typically last? Will it corrode or melt under a 35~40 deg direct sunlight?

2. Regarding the "thermically blued" or "painted blue" on the hands, will the work be done on the original set of black hands or new set of hands? if it is the latter, then will the original set of black hands be shipped along to us with the finished watch?

At this moment, I would opt for the painted blue option, due to budget and time constraints. If the painted blue would probably "melt" under the desert sun or "corrode" in wet weather, then I rather stick with the black hands.

[frank_be]

The colored hands will not degrade or corrode under normal conditions. And definitely not melt.
As with all luminous paints, the paint shouldn't get wet or it will turn brown.

The new set of hands will have the form the forum decides.

The original black hands will be sent back to you of course.


Greetings,
Frank

[CKH2359]

Hi Frank

Thank you for the prompt reply.

The "melting" concern was with regards to yenfoolun's watch is the earlier post on his prs 20 italian le blued swan neck regulator.

Certainly I would like to know the forum's decision. I have seen Stowa's Airman Original's blued hands and thought they looked just great.

Cheers!

[Frode]

Anyone own a Stowa Airman or something similar with steel blued hands AND a watch with brass/blue painted hands (Debaufre/ or similar)?

Informed opinions, and even better, side by side photos, would be very welcome! |>

[Erik_H]

I decided long ago that I want the blued steel hands. I am not going to change my decision due to cost or time. The blued steel hands are neccesary to create my vision of the perfect downsized B-Uhr, and anything else would ruin the idea for me. We have come so far in this project.

Everyone would respect those who would go for the less expensive version.

I hope the rest of us can continue towards the perfect watch we have envisioned.

Erik_H

[Janne]

After reading the posts after mine, I do realise that I and the wife will be happiest with the proper blued hands. And I have ordered TWO watches, mind you!!
So I lean towards the expensive, but better option!
And due to the time, the cost will be easily absorbed! And what is 216 Euro anyway??

[fachiro1]

kudos to you Janne! My thoughts exactly!:-!

[yenfoolun]

Hi Frank

Thank you for the prompt reply.

The "melting" concern was with regards to yenfoolun's watch is the earlier post on his prs 20 italian le blued swan neck regulator.

Certainly I would like to know the forum's decision. I have seen Stowa's Airman Original's blued hands and thought they looked just great.

Cheers!

hehe... i'll definitely go for painted brass hands! scared of steel rust in high humidity Malaysia...
and after a very very bad experience with my prs 20 le.... i'll not take the risk... i was banned from tzuk forum after posting my feeling there... not sure whether or i will get back my blued swan neck now...

and price is a must considered factor! only 50 watch is made, so 50 sets of hand will not get much discount!

[Janne]

How many of us are opting for the blued (of both sorts) hands?
Yenfoolun, I think your "accident" with your Swan neck was just really, really bad luck!
Did you get to the root of the problem? Rotten seals that compromised the WR? Sweaty watchmaker?

[Biggie_Robs]

If blued hands are to be done, then I think they should be the expensive, Swiss blued steel. I just have to decide if I can justify the expense (I want to)!

For me, the sword-style minute hand is probably an even more important factor than the blueing. They are both significant factors, but I really want that sword-style minute hand on my B-uhr. So it is going to be hard for me to turn down the opportunity to make that happen (especially in beautiful, blued steel).

Still, it's more expensive than I expected--stupid me, I guess. :oops:

[Janne]

I believe the design of the hands has been finalised? Correct, Frank-be?

[Frode]

Having slept on it, I have decided for the steel hands too.

Never mind the price was tripled from the stipulated 30 euro. :-x

Having a special watch like this, and suddenly going for the cheap "almost the real thing" hands, is like buying a Ferrari, and as a last option, going for inexpensive, narrow tires.....

And it is not only the wallet that knows the difference. If I went brass, everytime I looked at the watch, I would think: "Too much blue....dang!" :rodekaart

[yenfoolun]

How many of us are opting for the blued (of both sorts) hands?
Yenfoolun, I think your "accident" with your Swan neck was just really, really bad luck!
Did you get to the root of the problem? Rotten seals that compromised the WR? Sweaty watchmaker?

tzuk's eddie said it was because of condensation water when i put it into cold safe!
our fellow master from wus watctmaker forum said it was contact between 2 different metal!
my local watchmaker said it was not properly handle during assembling, probably it was touched by sweaty human finger without rubber glove... or moist gone into movement during winding!
what ever it is... i still waiting without knowing status... since i was banned to tzuk and never get reply for email sent to tzuk... :(

so i will not take the blue steel hands... because this watch is not water resistant.... no more taking risk.... but i do like blued steel...

[Sandy]

I'll take the steel hands.

All of us thought the watch was reasonably priced at 550 euro including shipping knowing that the hands were not replica. Would we have kept our order if the price was 660 euro with replica hands? I would have, so why balk now at the steel hand price?

[Janne]

so i will not take the blue steel hands... because this watch is not water resistant.... no more taking risk.... but i do like blued steel...

The WR is 5 ATM, so ok to shower and swim in. (50 meters)

Sandy, what iritated me was that the cost had tripled for the hands. And the time it will take.
What still irritates me is that Laco will send the watch with black hands to me, and that later I have to send the watch back to Laco for hands change. This will add cost and of course there is a risk of losing the watches in the transport!!

End of being irritated, we are after all waiting for the, by far, best "B-uhr re-creation" on Earthi and it is Saturday!

[yenfoolun]

The WR is 5 ATM, so ok to shower and swim in. (50 meters)

err... ok! will think bout it...

[Hary]

hehe... i'll definitely go for painted brass hands! scared of steel rust in high humidity Malaysia...
and after a very very bad experience with my prs 20 le.... i'll not take the risk... i was banned from tzuk forum after posting my feeling there... not sure whether or i will get back my blued swan neck now...

and price is a must considered factor! only 50 watch is made, so 50 sets of hand will not get much discount!

Sorry to hear your bad experience with prs20LE. I wouldn't accept the argument of high humidity caused the rust. I think it must be isolated case, please check with fellow owners of prs20LE in Malaysia/Singapore. I suspect your prs20LE was not properly assembled/sealed. I would not worry to have the real blued hands to be installed on Laco.

For Singapore WIS friends who decide on blued steel, maybe we can go together to local watchmaker to have the hands installed.

[yenfoolun]

Sorry to hear your bad experience with prs20LE. I wouldn't accept the argument of high humidity caused the rust. I think it must be isolated case, please check with fellow owners of prs20LE in Malaysia/Singapore. I suspect your prs20LE was not properly assembled/sealed. I would not worry to have the real blued hands to be installed on Laco.

For Singapore WIS friends who decide on blued steel, maybe we can go together to local watchmaker to have the hands installed.

blueing should help in prevent steel from getting rust. watch water resistant has no problem after test. not sure other malaysian/singaporean have prs20le will face the same problem... i hope theirs r ok!

any malaysian who need to get a local watchmaker for installing hand?
i knew someone can fix it professionally.... just pm me if you need help!

[Janne]

Posted the following on the wrong LE thread, so here it is in the correct one:
Is it time to make a rollcall so Laco knows how many Blued steel or Painted brass hand sets we want?
I take it the Design of the Hands is finalised!

[inlanding]

The real thing for me, too. The Stowa Airman uses those true blued hands and they are spectacular.

So should it be for this special Laco WUS LE.

I hope the sword minute hand is part of the Universo decision.

It is no problem for me to receive the watch with its standard black hands, then have the correct blued ones sent separately.

Glen

[Biggie_Robs]

I thought the sword minute hand was the decision that we had already made?

[Janne]

I thought that frank-be was finished with his great creation on the 7 of July?
And Laco was now in the process to source them?
I might be mistaken (but I do not think so!)

[frank_be]

I thought that frank-be was finished with his great creation on the 7 of July?
And Laco was now in the process to source them?
I might be mistaken (but I do not think so!)

Laco has 2 sources where the blue hands can be bought.
The form will be new, as original as possible compared to the WWII version.
The forum can still decide how the final form of the hands will look like, but I think we were already very close.

Greetings,
Frank

PS: I haven't got much time at the moment(business). And next week I will be on a paragliding course in France. But the week after I will have time again.

[Janne]

I think the design from July 7 is as close as we can get.
Frank, be careful with the paragliding!!
Have fun, Janne

[frank_be]

I think the design from July 7 is as close as we can get.
Frank, be careful with the paragliding!!
Have fun, Janne

Thanks Janne, and yes we will be carefull.

It is a guided course with a paragliding school and we don't fool around. We also have a reserve parachute and an airbag backprotection and a helmet of course. And in case of ANY doubt concerning weather conditions we don't even start. We also always go check the landing area and check all possible obstacles that could cause trouble. Because if the wing collapses below 30 metres you are in serious trouble...

This is me while flying:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS22UDQUADc
Nothing spectacular but great fun!

Greetings,
Frank

[CKH2359]

Hi I know this is off-topic, but must compliment your flying - it is a good video. For someone like me who has a fear of heights, looking at your video already gave me cold sweat. Thanks for sharing!

[bullitt731]

Posted the following on the wrong LE thread, so here it is in the correct one:
Is it time to make a rollcall so Laco knows how many Blued steel or Painted brass hand sets we want?
I take it the Design of the Hands is finalised!

I am still in for the blued hands as long as Laco will keep my watch and install them. No need to pay twice for shipping back and forth and I don't trust anyone locally to install them. :-!

[Janne]

I believe that Laco WILL ship the watch to you with the black hands. And we will need to ship it to them ourselves for the installation of the blued hands.
Myself, I would prefer your way, i.e. Laco keeps the watch untill the Blued are ready to be installed.

[hotnerd]

I think Frank may have to communicate urgently with Mr. Pfeiffer if some of the forum members intend to hold their watch back for few months. Laco's intention is to ship all the watches with black hands in next two weeks.

We will collectively have to decide which hands we agree upon and if all of us even want the blue hands option. Some of us may receive the watch and be satisfied with the black hands.

Laco may base the cost of hands on how many members sign up for the option.

Cheers,
Bhanu

[Janne]

No 2/50 and 50/50 preferences:Expensive properly Blued hands as Frank-be designed, Laco ship both watches asap, local watchmaker installs blued hands later when I am used to the Black ones ;-)

A question too; Is it a good idea to ask Laco to supply new seals, to be replaced at the same time the hands are changed by the local watchmaker? Or can they be reused safely, without jeopardising the WR?

[Paulo]

Please be aware that blued hands will take more than 6 months to be delivered. :-(

[Janne]

6 months ? ? ? OK, that settles it, I change them locally!! 6 months, that is a lot of time!!
My previous post is changed!

[bullitt731]

I believe that Laco WILL ship the watch to you with the black hands. And we will need to ship it to them ourselves for the installation of the blued hands.
Myself, I would prefer your way, i.e. Laco keeps the watch untill the Blued are ready to be installed.

Sorry, under those circumstances I would have to pass. I just can't rationalize paying the shipping charges 3 ways to the US. I will follow the project to see how we end up, I hope this issue can be overcome. As long as the watch and hands are paid for in full I guess I don't see why this could not be possible. :-s

[hotnerd]

Sorry, under those circumstances I would have to pass. I just can't rationalize paying the shipping charges 3 ways to the US. I will follow the project to see how we end up, I hope this issue can be overcome. As long as the watch and hands are paid for in full I guess I don't see why this could not be possible. :-s

Sorry to hear that but I hope you do realize that shipping is free from Laco. You will only pay for shipping once.

The blue hands were considered in the beginning of the this special edition but we all decided to make this a separate project since it will take 6 months. This was known back in April.

We could have ordered our blue hands then.........:think:

Cheers,
Bhanu

[Biggie_Robs]

We could have ordered our blue hands then.........:think:

Cheers,
Bhanu


I've been having that same thought!

[Janne]

Well, next time we will know! Considering most of us are "happy" amateurs, I think we still have done pretty well!

[hotnerd]

Well, next time we will know! Considering most of us are "happy" amateurs, I think we still have done pretty well!

Very well indeed and more than happy :-!

Cheers,
Bhanu

[yenfoolun]

i'll also get the watch first...

[CKH2359]

I think most lume will lose a little of their brightness after some time.

Given the 6 months waiting time required for making the flame-blued hands, what would help in ensuring that the lume on the new hands be the same as that on the watch that we are going to get and use for six months (possibly on a daily/weekly basis)?

[Janne]

The lume is different anyway between the indices and the hands, (thickness etc). So it should be OK. 6 months is a short time, it should be good for 20 years or so?
Let's just hope the colour will be the same.

Add: well, you might be right when it comes to the seconds hand. That one will be the same(delivered with the watch initially). Now you got me worried. I might not use the watch much before I have the blu hands fitted. Maybe just after sunset, when I am on the prowl, thirsty for some blood....

;-) Janne

[bullitt731]

Sorry to hear that but I hope you do realize that shipping is free from Laco. You will only pay for shipping once.

The blue hands were considered in the beginning of the this special edition but we all decided to make this a separate project since it will take 6 months. This was known back in April.

We could have ordered our blue hands then.........:think:

Cheers,
Bhanu

After some checking I believe I have found a watch repairman up to the task of changing them out locally. If we can come to some general concensous where we all order and pay for the hands now to secure the price including shipping and they will be shipped within 6 months by Laco or something to that effect I am still in. I will just wait to see what you guys all decide before making a definate decision. After being fortunate enough the receive a Stowa FO LE, I think the hands are very important in making this watch the best example we can get to date anyway.

Heck I waited almost 18 months for the Stowa, 6 months for the hands is nothing.

[CKH2359]

Hi

For the sake of my own understanding, I gathered that the original pilot watches produced by the five companies (LS, IWC, Stowa, Laco, and Wempe) has blued hands. Subsequently, most of the replicas, and even the models today have black hands.

In the 1st place, what is the purpose of having blued hands in the original pilot's watch? Economically, it is better to have black hands as it saves costs and more importantly, time.

Anyone here can provide some clues as to the actual historical rational for having blued hands on pilot watches?

[Janne]

Just a guess:
Fact: The watches ( B-uhren) were not waterproofed.
Maybe: When flying, I guess the change of altitude can produce condensation inside the watch. Blueing is a good way to prevent rust forming. That is why guns are blued (obviously not S/s guns) on the outside.
If the hand rusts, (rust expands, has a greater volume than the original metal) maybe it can dislodge the luminous compound?
As I wrote, just a guess!

[CKH2359]

Thanks Janne for the logical guess. :)

I have another concern (this was after discussion with my local watch maker who happens to be a Laco service centre) - will having our local watchmaker install the blue hands, assuming they are shipped separately and later in the year, void the international warranty of the watch?

I believe Janne, you highlighted this same concern on 23rd June (about warranty and waterproofness of the watch after installing the blue hands) - but I can't seemed to find the offical reply.

BTW, what is the warranty on the our watches?

[Janne]

No official reply given. Laco/Lacher warranty is 24 Months.

[CKH2359]

Ok. No problem. I just got the invoice email from Mr. Pfeiffer - I will check with him. :)

[CKH2359]

Mr Pfeiffer informed me that the watch warranty is international - 2 years. He also clarified that if a watchmaker is working on the watch (re: changing to the blued hands), it doesn't affect the warranty.

Cheers

[Janne]

That is VERY generous of Mr Pfeiffer! Usually, once the goods are tampered with by a non approved person, the warranty is void!

[Frode]

That is VERY generous of Mr Pfeiffer! Usually, once the goods are tampered with by a non approved person, the warranty is void!

I presume there will be a difference weather you let your local watch repairman or local butcher have a go at it.....:-d

[CKH2359]

That's what I thought... it's very generous of Laco! But judging from the fact this watch:

1) is not using precious material ;
2) nor is the movement complicated or expensive or hard-to-find ;
3) the cost of manufacturing is relatively low ;
4) there are only 50 pieces to support ;
5) the fact that most of us who bought it love it to bits and would most likely get our most trusted and qualified specialist to work on the watch

I think it makes sense for him to make this business decision.

[Janne]

Yes, he is lucky Sean (Yamahaki) did not buy one! I can see Sean putting it through some new testing to see of it is OK.;-)

[hotnerd]

Frank,

The ball is in your court for the blue hands project :-!

Perhaps we can start with a poll for which type of hands (with an example). Close the poll in one weeks time and then approach Laco on how to proceed?

Cheers,
Bhanu

[Paulo]

Frank,

The ball is in your court for the blue hands project :-!

Perhaps we can start with a poll for which type of hands (with an example). Close the poll in one weeks time and then approach Laco on how to proceed?

Cheers,
Bhanu

I agree, better start now, otherwise we risk having Christmas mess the project timelines. :-!
If I can be of any help just let me know. :-)

[yenfoolun]

Frank,

Perhaps we can start with a poll for which type of hands (with an example). Close the poll in one weeks time and then approach Laco on how to proceed?

Cheers,
Bhanu


agreed!

[frank_be]

Hi everyone,

The reason I'v waited a bit was because I wanted everybody to receive his watch first.

Then everyone can decide if they still want to go forward with bleud hands or not. Now considering the quality of the delivered wathes so far (and I haven't seen a real one myself yet), I may assume that a lot of us want the blued hands. I think blued hands will upgrade this watch even more. Hard to imagine because the quality allready is very high.

I will call Mr Pfeiffer later this week to discuss the minimum sets of hands the group has to purchase, because that will have a direct impact on the price.

For us we will have to decide what type of hands we prefer. And who would like to join in the project.

I will start a new thread to let you all say If you're in or not, and if you want the "real steel" or the "blued brass".


Greetings,
Frank

[frank_be]

Hi everybody,

I would also like to say that Mr. Pfeiffer told me we can buy more than 1 set of hands if we like. Just in case you want a spare set.

Also the people who don't want blued hands please also respond in the "Blued Hands: Who's in" thread.

Greetings,
Frank

[Crusader]

Also the people who don't want blued hands please also respond in the "Blued Hands: Who's in" thread.

I changed the thread title accordingly.

[Biggie_Robs]

Is there a timeframe for this blued-hands project? It seems that we know the shape of the hands and that they will be "real steel" from the sticky thread (32-1-1 vote). I didn't want to clog up that thread with my questions, but I wondered:

Are we simply waiting to find out how many people are willing to go in on a set of hands? And after that, for the price from Laco?

I remember a price being quoted, but I've not tried to sift through all the different threads to try to find it, and some have mentioned that the price may go down if more people order the hands.

Is anything being done to recruit others to order blued hands? If not, will there be? If not again, then when does the clock start for the six-month wait? It is going to be a six-month wait, right? Or have I misremembered?

I'm just curious, guys. :-! One way or another, when these hands get put on this watch, I will be a happy guy! b-)