Old British Pocket Watch Identification Help David Taylor, London Pocket Watch.

[John Vargas]

This is on of four antique pocket watches I have, but know nothing about; any help and information regarding them would be greatly appreciated.

The pocket watch is marked David Taylor, 27 Northampton Square, London. No. 5313.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Regards,

John

Click on thumbnails to enlarge…

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00010-11.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00010-11.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00011-12.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00011-12.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00012-9.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00012-9.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00013-11.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00013-11.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00014-11.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00014-11.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00015-11.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00015-11.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00016-10.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00016-10.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00017-13.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00017-13.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00018-10.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00018-10.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00002-15.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00002-15.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00004-16.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00004-16.jpg)

[Ray MacDonald]

I'd like to see a better picture of the case hallmarks to be sure. This one looks like a mid 19th century English lever.

[John Vargas]

Hello Ray,

Again, thanks so much for the information. I really appreciate it.

Here are some photos of the Hallmarks you requested.

Regards,

John


Click on thumbnails to enlarge photos…




http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00007-11.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00007-11.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00008-8.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00008-8.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00013-12.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00013-12.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00014-12.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00014-12.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00016-11.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00016-11.jpg)

[Ray MacDonald]

Interesting. The case is hallmarked 1818 but I'd swear this movement is newer than that. The balance looks compensated, and the movement generally looks like something from 1850 or so. Sometimes they took old verges out of these silver cases and replaced them with a more modern movement.
Can you see the toothed contrate wheel if you look at the watch from the side? It may be older than I originally thought and certainly is if the movement is original.

[John Vargas]

Hey Ray,

I took photos from every possible angle for you of the inside of the movement the best I could.

Hopefully these will help, and I really appreciate your help!

Regards,

John

Click in thumbnails to enlarge photos…

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00001-12.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00001-12.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00002-17.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00002-17.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00003-17.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00003-17.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00004-19.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00004-19.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00005-18.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00005-18.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00006-13.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00006-13.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00007-12.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00007-12.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00008-10.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00008-10.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00009-12.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00009-12.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00010-12.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00010-12.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00011-13.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00011-13.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00012-10.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00012-10.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00015-12.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00015-12.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00016-12.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00016-12.jpg)

[aditya]

Hello John,

Here is some more information.

This is a pair cased English pocket watch watch. This means that it has two cases (inner & outer).

As Ray has pointed out, one of the cases (inner) dates from 1818. The outer case seems to date from 1820.

In addition, the movement is certainly a later lever movement. As levers go, it must be an early example. The ratchet (missing) and pawl on the barrel bridge seem to indicate this. Later levers had this on the dial side.

So, I am afraid you have got three bits from three different watches. Having said that, the movement is quite good quality. It has at least 15 jewels and a diamond end-stone. I have a suspicion that it has a reverse train.

Hope this helps

Aditya

[Ray MacDonald]

Thanks Aditya for your post. Aditya is our best expert on 19th century English pocket watches so I invited him via PM to comment in case I was wrong.
I didn't see the fact that you have two different case parts. I was thinking the 1820 one came from the O'Reilly watch and just got posted twice. :oops:
It looks as if you have a 19th century Frankenwatch here, but that is not all that unusual in these situations. Many times the original verge movement wore out or just was considered obsolete. The case was still OK, or this time there were two silver case parts that fit the bill. A new lever movement was fitted at the jeweler and the watch was good to go. An interesting piece because of the work that was done. :-p

[John Vargas]

Hello Aditya,

Thank you. I truly appreciate your assistance, and your in-depth explanation of what I have here.

Now I know what I have. It makes it more interesting, if this watch could only tell me where is have been and seen in the last 200 years.

This is one of my favorite pocket watches. I really enjoy looking at it.

Thanks again,

John

[John Vargas]

Ray,

Thanks so much for inviting Aditya, and thank you for your help as well. It is greatly appreciated.

Although it has dents and scratches, and it’s a frakenwatch, outside of my Dudley it is one of my favorite pockets watches the more I look at it.

It is a nice piece as you and Aditya say. They really knew how to make watches back then. True pieces of artwork.

Here is my favorite pocket watch (Dudley), I am the second owner, and it still has the original wooden box it came with.

Regards,

John

Click on thumbnails to enlarge…

Unknown Watch…last known date 1848

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00061-1.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00061-1.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00060-1.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00060-1.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00059-1.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00059-1.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00058-1.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00058-1.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00057-1.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00057-1.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00056-1.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00056-1.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00055.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00055.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00054.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00054.jpg)




Dudley Masonic Pocket Watch…

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/th_DSC00006.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/DSC00006.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/th_DSC00069-1.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/DSC00069-1.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/th_DSC00068-1.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/DSC00068-1.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/th_DSC00066-1.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/DSC00066-1.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/th_DSC00067-1.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/DSC00067-1.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/th_DSC00065-1.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/DSC00065-1.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/th_DSC00064.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/DSC00064.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/th_DSC00063.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/DSC00063.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/th_DSC00062-2.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/DSC00062-2.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/th_DSC00062-1.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/DSC00062-1.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/th_DSC00015.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/DSC00015.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/th_DSC00014.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/Dudley/DSC00014.jpg)

[John Vargas]

Hey Ray,

I have been known to mess up when posting photos. Here are photos of the inner and outer case. This time, I made sure no other watches were around! LOL!

Regards,

John

Click on Thumbnails to enlarge photos…

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00002-19.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00002-19.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00003-18.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00003-18.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00004-20.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00004-20.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00005-19.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00005-19.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00006-14.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00006-14.jpg)

[Ray MacDonald]

OK the inner and outer cases are both hallmarked 1818, but as we know the movement has been replaced with a newer English lever. This makes more sense to me.

[Ray MacDonald]

Your unknown watch with 1848 on it has a Swiss sterling silver case. It looks like it has a cylinder escapement 10 jewel movement which would be a pretty good Swiss movement for the time. I'd like to see a pic of the movement itself.

[Ray MacDonald]

The keystone shaped wooden box, silver Bible, and square third wheel bridge identify your Masonic watch as a 12S 19 jewel Dudley Model #2, made by P. W. Baker Co. between 1925 and 1935. Baker was the successor to the original Mr. Dudley, whose company went bankrupt in 1925.

[John Vargas]

I'd like to see a pic of the movement itself.

Hey Ray,

Thanks for the information. Your wish is my command. Sorry for the dismal photos. But, it is pouring outside, and somehow the inside lights don't do watches any justice.

Regards,

John

Click on Thumbnails to enlarge photos…

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00001-13.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00001-13.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00004-21.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00004-21.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00005-20.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00005-20.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00006-15.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00006-15.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00007-13.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00007-13.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00008-11.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00008-11.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00010-13.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00010-13.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00011-14.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00011-14.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00013-13.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00013-13.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00014-13.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00014-13.jpg) http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/th_DSC00015-13.jpg (http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/smkngun27/My%20Watches/DSC00015-13.jpg)

[Ray MacDonald]

Thanks.This movement is probably original. It's Swiss, a LeCoultre style movement that was popular from 1830 to approx. 1875. The 1848 date would certainly fit in there.

[John Vargas]

OK the inner and outer cases are both hallmarked 1818, but as we know the movement has been replaced with a newer English lever. This makes more sense to me.

Thanks, now we know why there is an additional hole on the back of the case (I think).

It’s nice to know that the outer and inner cases match. Have you ever heard of the watchmaker before?

[John Vargas]

Ray,

Thanks for the information, on both watches!

The original owner of the Dudley P.W. was a Brother in my Lodge, he purchased the watch in 1924. He ordered it from Dudley, via Mail Order, as a newly made Master Mason. He always wore it to special Lodge meetings, and I fell in love with it. When he passed, I was able to get it…with the box. The other items are mine.

Neat piece of watch making history.

Regards,

John

[Ray MacDonald]

I have not heard of him but his address is in an area of London (Islington -Clerkenwell) which traditionally was a watchmaker area.
I saw another David Taylor on the Internet with a serial number in the 9000s, which dated to 1860. So your watch would be earlier than that.
As watchmaking in those days in Britain was still pretty much a handmade affair, David Taylor was likely in business a fair while to make as many as 9000 watches.

[aditya]

You are most welcome john. And Ray, Thank you once again for pointing out these watches. My internet connection is acting up, so my visits have been rather infrequent lately.

It all makes sense now. I should have guessed there has been a mix up with the pictures :oops:.The proper round hole in the inner case was where the original movement (most probably a verge) had the winding square. The rough hole was made when this movement was put in.

There is a book, by Brian Loomes I think, that lists all watchmakers that have practiced their trade in the UK. I do not have it but that would be the best source to look for information on this maker.

Kind regards

Aditya

[Ray MacDonald]

http://www.brianloomes.com/books/books.html

[John Vargas]

Hello Aditya,

Again, thank you so much, I truly appreciate your and Rays help, it has been most helpful, and it is wonderful to see that people still help others.

Sorry for the mix up on the photos, I occasionally do that in my “speed posting mode”! LOL

On your advice, I went ahead, and purchased the book you recommended.

I hope that you can soon get your internet connection sorted, and back to normal as soon as possible.

Again, I thank you!

Warm Regards,

John

[John Vargas]

http://www.brianloomes.com/books/books.html


Hello Ray,

Thanks for the link! It is much appreciated! I went ahead and I purchased the book as well! Thanks again!

Regards,

John

[aditya]

http://www.brianloomes.com/books/books.html

Yes, that's the one "Watchmakers & Clockmakers of the world". Thanks for the link Ray!

John,

some random information regarding your 1848 watch.
The case is definitely swiss. The 'grouse' hallmark for 0.800 silver confirms this.

British sterling silver is 0.925, i.e. 92.5% silver. The equivalent swiss standard was 0.935 i.e. 93.5% silver.

Your case is marked 0.800 along with the grouse hallmark. This means the case is 80% silver.

Watchmakers were in the habit of scratching details of services performed on the inside of the caseback. These were, however, very tiny scribbles written in the watchmakers own obscure code (more often than not undecipherable). The rather large 'WHW 12-17-1848' could have been scratched by the original owner. What would be interesting to know is, did the swiss follow the month-date-year format in those days?

Kind regards

Aditya

[Ray MacDonald]

Thanks for the clarification on sterling silver, Aditya.

[John Vargas]

Aditya

Thanks for the clarification! Again, you expert advice is greatly appreciated.

I would like to thank you and Ray for the book information. I purchased it at Amazon for ½ the price new from the publisher. I am truly looking forward to it, and to reading and learning from it.

I would be interested to know if the Swiss followed the month-date-year format as well. There is another date, which is in the late 1860’s, and there is a faint scratches of something that appear to be Celtic Ruins.

I tried to Google for the information, but I came up with nothing.

Again, I really appreciate your help.

Warm Regards,

John

[John Vargas]

Ray,

Thank you so much Sir for posting that book link. It is greatly appreciated.

Warm Regards,

John