Thoughts About A Possible Next Pil-Mil Watch Project [Archive] - Watchuseek, world's largest & highest trafficked Watch Forum site

Janne

October 4th, 2008, 06:53

Moderator Note:

This is an interesting discussion, and in order not to lose it in the thread about the Laco watches, I am copying the relevant posts into this separate thread

Janne, sorry it does not have the "toxic green" glow but it has its own personality :-d
Bhanu

I think I can live with that! Who knows what lume it had in the beginning, 60 odd years ago!
I have not received mine yet, but from your pics, guys, it looks really, really nice!
And the dial, Frank-be's work really shows what a pro he is!
If I may say so, visually this watch is the best of them all. In some cases, for a fraction of the cost.
The movement is maybe not so elaborate, but the first indications show it is an accurate, very successful conversation!

Boys, what is the next project?

Hary

October 4th, 2008, 07:03

Quick and dirty pictures

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v178/Harypotter/IMG_6168.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v178/Harypotter/IMG_6163.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v178/Harypotter/IMG_6144.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v178/Harypotter/IMG_6146.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v178/Harypotter/IMG_6143.jpg

Crusader

October 4th, 2008, 09:35

Boys, what is the next project?

One watch that has never been homaged, replicated or whatever you want to call it was the watch that was worn by the pilots who won the Second World War: the American A-11 (also delievered in quantities to the UK and the Soviet Union).

JohnF

October 4th, 2008, 09:59

Hi -

Yesssssssssssss! YesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYes
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YesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYes
YesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYes
YesYesYesYesYesYesYesYes...

Ok, you get the idea.

Resized to ca 40mm, with the same 2824--->2801 conversion.

And so people know the general kind of thing we're talking about (I don't have a really good shot of the A11...):

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w233/JohnF1956/79_12.jpg

Bill would be *the* perfect guy to do it. But it's not like he's got any free time on his hands...

There are actually a number of possibles: how about this one:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w233/JohnF1956/30937.jpg

or this:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w233/JohnF1956/c483_1-1.jpg

Or something more exotic, such as watch based on this:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w233/JohnF1956/avatar80MWR.jpg

That's a 24-hour face, pure americana militaria...

Or keeping with the Germans:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w233/JohnF1956/DSCN41118x6.jpg

JohnF

JohnF

October 4th, 2008, 10:10

Hi -

:-)

You got it.

Here's an A11:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w233/JohnF1956/918-088a.jpg

And here's a larger dial picture of what I'd love to own as a wrist watch:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w233/JohnF1956/8_14_0017.jpg

The latter could be done with a modified 7750 with the left-hand orientation and a conversion that used the date wheel to drive the subdial at 9..

JohnF

TIMEangel

October 4th, 2008, 10:13

Seconded. Count me in on the next homage project.

JohnF

October 4th, 2008, 10:15

Hi -

Well. we've got three: time to start a new thread????

JohnF

ht8306

October 4th, 2008, 13:36

Count me in...please. That's 4 :)

Mescalito

October 4th, 2008, 13:56

Boys, what is the next project?

because the working with laco has been such successful, i would definetly go for a laco replica with dial A!
the case, the engravings, the crown, the modified handwound eta-movement with hacking second and the straps can be the same, only a new dial has to be printed. therefore i would suggest to copy the dial of the original 55mm-laco and minimize it in vector-files like frank_b has done it in this project. blued hands for the new project could be a side project as well and i think the price might be the same (and i don't think that we'll find such a price for such a watch anywhere else).
we now have a lot of experience in making an outstanding hommage to the original laco watch and a dial A-version would perfectly complete a nice collection of b-watches.

so if we're heading towards such a project, i would definetly join in :-!

Mescalito

October 4th, 2008, 14:03

because the working with laco has been such successful, i would definetly go for a laco replica with dial A!
the case, the engravings, the crown, the modified handwound eta-movement with hacking second and the straps can be the same, only a new dial has to be printed. therefore i would suggest to copy the dial of the original 55mm-laco and minimize it in vector-files like frank_b has done it in this project. blued hands for the new project could be a side project as well and i think the price might be the same (and i don't think that we'll find such a price for such a watch anywhere else).
we now have a lot of experience in making an outstanding hommage to the original laco watch and a dial A-version would perfectly complete a nice collection of b-watches.

so if we're heading towards such a project, i would definetly join in :-!

i found on the internet that laco has already manufactured such a limited edition for another forum. it looks quite good, but as you can see, there would be a lot of improval opportunities for us ;-) (perfect dial, perfect lume, crown, handwinding movement instead of automatic one, side engravings, back,...)

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2030/dscf0070ks2.jpg

although i really like our back engraving, maybe we could change this one, if we were going for a dial A-version? i really like the historic engravings, which for example is stowa using nowadays:

http://stowa.de/shop/pix/a/z/flieger_original_serie/b10.jpg

Erik_H

October 4th, 2008, 14:50

Mecalito, your proposal is interesting and I would consider it. However, for a Baumuster A I will also consider the Stowa serial production watch (I missed out on the LE) as I find that one to be such a beautiful solution to a Baumuster A.

I will for sure be in on Crusader/JohnF's proposal though. Let's get a new thread and see what we would like to do.

Erik_H

JohnF

October 4th, 2008, 14:55

Hi -

I agree here: the IA is available as hommages from a number of sources, not the least of which is Laco itself.

Crusader, check your PM...

JohnF

Crusader

October 4th, 2008, 15:57

Here's an A11:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w233/JohnF1956/918-088a.jpg

This is exactly the lumed variant (lume pattern, hands shape) of the A-11 I was thinking about. :-!

Erik_H

October 4th, 2008, 16:10

I am listening. I have already decided I want it on a khaki band...

Erik_H

Janne

October 4th, 2008, 17:14

Count me in! Love that Bulova. But the A-11 is nice too!

My preference: I would love to have John's "black dial", with a modified 7550.
Not too big, around 40-42mm

The negative with an A-11 is, it is quite close (visually) to what we have done.
But, as always, Majority Rules!

Sandy

October 4th, 2008, 17:35

I'm in for the A-11 as well.

I'm not interested in the type A Baumeister because I'm one of the lucky ones who have a Stowa Flieger Original limited edition.

daviswalker

October 4th, 2008, 18:08

A military-style watch that has been suggested on the Stowa forum is a field watch. I don't know the exact history of this design, but I would love to learn about it as part of a modern recreation. Pic is from a postcard that Joerg sent out. The top watch in the postcard, in 40mm, would be my vote.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa76/dave_walker/ww2stowa.jpg

Dave

inlanding

October 4th, 2008, 19:10

The A-11 sounds like a great idea - gotta be a great lumer!

Glen

Mescalito

October 4th, 2008, 20:03

Mecalito, your proposal is interesting and I would consider it. However, for a Baumuster A I will also consider the Stowa serial production watch (I missed out on the LE) as I find that one to be such a beautiful solution to a Baumuster A.

you're right about the stowa, but i'm pretty sure that a stowa will be much more expensive than another laco one.
i also already have a pilots watch with baumuster a-dial - the archimede pilot (which is a relly nice watch, of course)- but the laco is much more authentic.
i think such a project would be very easy to realize with our experiences with laco and imho the amount of 50 wouldn't be a problem either ...

frank_be

October 4th, 2008, 20:35

VERY nice watch dial; I'll do the dial vector conversion :-)

Greetings,
Frank

daviswalker

October 4th, 2008, 22:59

Reading more about my idea, it looks like this design is the WWW watch I've always heard about but never understood. Here's another example from the forums. It appears that lots of companies made them during WWII with varying hand styles but I don't know of any modern examples.

http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=130225

So here's a vote for a WWW recreation.

Dave

Crusader

October 4th, 2008, 23:23

VERY nice watch dial; I'll do the dial vector conversion :-)

Greetings,
Frank

Which one, Frank - the A-11, or one of the earlier ones John posted as well?

Janne

October 5th, 2008, 00:10

If this new project goes ahead, we should have a sterile dial, no name-no logo. I prefer not to have a "fake" on my wrist.
I am open for everything, but would it not be nice with a white dialled watch for a change?

Crusader

October 5th, 2008, 00:14

If this new project goes ahead, we should have a sterile dial, no name-no logo. I prefer not to have a "fake" on my wrist.

There is a strong Watchuseek policy against fakes. ;-)

Some of the watches discussed here (like the A-11) were sterile anyway, and for other proposals, if made by the same company as the original (like the Stowa field watch) the logo should add to the authenticity.

Janne

October 5th, 2008, 17:29

I am aware of the policy, my personal averson for fakes is even stronger. I just wanted to prevent a dial design with a name / logo, type Benrus etc.
Unless we can make this project with the original manufacturer, of course!

Crusader

October 5th, 2008, 19:10

Janne

October 5th, 2008, 19:45

Let me assure you: Not during my watch, not on my ship, not in my Navy. :-)

|> :thanks

In the discussion on the Stowa Forum some months ago, there were some pics of some very good looking watches. Anybody remember the name of the thread?

daviswalker

October 5th, 2008, 19:54

Janne, this is the Stowa forum watch thread.

http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=152581

Dave

Janne

October 5th, 2008, 19:54

Hi -

And here's a larger dial picture of what I'd love to own as a wrist watch:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w233/JohnF1956/8_14_0017.jpg

The latter could be done with a modified 7750 with the left-hand orientation and a conversion that used the date wheel to drive the subdial at 9.. JohnF

I love this dial! John, do you have more info about this watch?
It is just so unusual, 24 h dial, colours, markings!
In the "Elapsed Time" subdial, there is an extra hole in the dial, touching the "6". What was that for?

Would this not be a suitable "WUS LE II " ?

Janne

October 6th, 2008, 05:43

And here's a larger dial picture of what I'd love to own as a wrist watch:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w233/JohnF1956/8_14_0017.jpg

The latter could be done with a modified 7750 with the left-hand orientation and a conversion that used the date wheel to drive the subdial at 9..

JohnF

Not that I would like to be too persuative or repetitive, but just imagine to have a watch with this beautiful , blue and white, lume!!!
WOW!
Greetings all, :-!, Janne

frank_be

October 6th, 2008, 11:30

Which one, Frank - the A-11, or one of the earlier ones John posted as well?

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w233/JohnF1956/918-088a.jpg

That one.

Very clean dial.

Greetings,
Frank

Crusader

October 6th, 2008, 11:35

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w233/JohnF1956/918-088a.jpg

That one.

Very clean dial.

Greetings,
Frank

The A-11. That is my favorite, too. b-)

TIMEangel

October 6th, 2008, 15:02

I am excited with A-11. I repeat. I am in.

Cheers

ht8306

October 6th, 2008, 15:26

I seconded that. It will be simply amazing, and not many similar interpretations. I'm in!

thodgins

October 6th, 2008, 21:09

I could go for a watch with the A-11 dial. That would be cool. Did Hamilton make a watch with the A-11 dial? Just curious who were producing these watches.

Crusader

October 6th, 2008, 22:15

I could go for a watch with the A-11 dial. That would be cool. Did Hamilton make a watch with the A-11 dial? Just curious who were producing these watches.

Hamilton, Elgin, Waltham, Bulova though one - Hamilton? - was not subsumed under the A-11 designation, though the watches were largely identical.

The A-11 was a production standard with many case and minor dial/hands variations, though some aspects are fairly universal: Hour numbers 1-12, minute/second numbers in increments of 10, same-type minute and hour hands.

The neat thing about this watch is that while it is an unobtrusive watch, it is the watch that kept the USAAF, flying, and to a lesser extent the RAF, RCAF and the Soviet Air Force during WWII and after. It was there when Germany was bombed to pieces, when the War in the Pacific ended in nuclear explosions, and when the Berlin Airlift turned erstwhile foes into friends and allies and handed the Communists their first resounding defeat of the Cold War.

There are design elements in the A-11 still present in today's US military issued watches, like the full 1-12 numerals, or the same type of minute and hour hands.

ryanc

October 6th, 2008, 22:36

Count me in on this one for sure...

Janne

October 6th, 2008, 22:44

Crusader

October 6th, 2008, 22:51

The Benrus in JohnF's post (no 4), is it also a watch to the A-11 specification?
I like the Benrus dial, but prefer the "no-name" A-11 case with the coin edge!
It gives it a visusal "edge" (;-)) over the Benrus case!

Do you mean this one?

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w233/JohnF1956/79_12.jpg

I am afraid that this is a Mil-W-46374 field watch type kind of thing with incorrect hands. ;-)

No, it's not an A-11, but one of its descendants. Watches of the original type of Mil-W-46374 field watches, and its high-spec. equivalent GG-W-113 are availiable on eBay in droves ... can't see how a homage would fly given that they can still be rstored to specs easily. I own four GG-W-113, and two have been restored to specs.

For example:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/Lobebaer/Watches/GGW113resized.jpg

Janne

October 7th, 2008, 00:27

Aha! OK, the "pure" A-11 it is then!
Laco make a similar case as the A-11, minus the coin edge, in 42mm, in the "Navy" range.
But I guess it is a quite "standard" case!

saigonblack

October 7th, 2008, 15:51

Count me in count me in, pretty please!

Im not gonna miss the next one for sure.

JohnF

October 7th, 2008, 20:21

Hi -

That dial is from an aircraft clock, not a watch!

That extra hole: no idea right now. If I recall correctly - and this is vague - it was a running indicator: as long as the mainspring had power, this was red, and when the mainspring no longer had any energy to transmit, it turned black. But like I said, this is only a vague memory of the actual aircraft clock.

The picture is from a dial face that was offered on eBay and went for more than I was willing to pay for it. I just searched on eBay for anything similar, nothing up right now. :-(

JohnF

I'm starting a research project on this particular one...

Janne

October 7th, 2008, 21:28

Aircraft clock- even more interesting. Wow, imaging having a dial like that! :-p

Mescalito

October 8th, 2008, 18:37

seems that noone here would be interested in a perfect LACO type A-replica... :-(

Janne

October 8th, 2008, 19:37

seems that noone here would be interested in a perfect LACO type A-replica... :-(
Mescalito! Do not cry! All you need is to have ONE dial printed. The rest of the watch parts can be just like the LE!

ht8306

October 9th, 2008, 04:26

I am very keen for a perfect Laco Type A replika 42mm.

TIMEangel

October 9th, 2008, 04:35

I will support if the dial are exact replica liked what Frank B did for the Laco Type B LE 50

frank_be

October 9th, 2008, 09:23

I will support if the dial are exact replica liked what Frank B did for the Laco Type B LE 50

All I need is a good hi-res picture of a good original and some time ;-) :-!
And with some luck we can re-use the new blued hands on this watch too.
You can count me in.

Greetings,
Frank

Crusader

October 9th, 2008, 10:48

Mescalito! Do not cry! All you need is to have ONE dial printed. The rest of the watch parts can be just like the LE!

You would need a different hour hand, too. ;-)

hwilsdorf

October 9th, 2008, 12:50

frank_be

October 9th, 2008, 16:32

I don't think you can reuse the type B hands on the type A. :) That would be short of horrible. :) :) I would like second a Type A Frank_BE drawn dial! Can we get a better handwound movement from Laco? Any Durowe movements left over from the 40's?

Can someone give me a picture of an original WWII Laco Type A Beobachtungsuhr?
So I can warm up already b-)

Greetings,
Frank

TIMEangel

October 9th, 2008, 18:08

Frank

With your input again, a must have for me. Go full steam pls

Cheers

bigflax925

October 9th, 2008, 18:34

I'm in for a Type A

bigwill

October 9th, 2008, 18:49

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w233/JohnF1956/avatar80MWR.jpg

Next special? It's just GOT to be this beautiful 24hr version - different, oozing character, and simply unobtainable anywhere elese (or do you all know something I don't...?)

Thanks for posting this JohnF, and stating a new longing to infest my life...

Crusader

October 9th, 2008, 18:51

I am trying to give an interim shortlist (in no particular order) of this thread so far to facilitate discussion

To me it seems that at least three watches are considered candidates for a Pil-Mil watch project:

- Laco B-Uhr Baumuster A, more or less along the lines of the current Baumuster B Limited Edition
- A-11 American Military Aviation Watch (as made by Elgin, Waltham, Bulova and Hamilton)
- Field Watch (DH/WWW) with seconds subdial (e.g. as made by Stowa)

A Laco Baumuster A would compete wtih a number of other Baumuster A homages, like e.g. the Stowa FO (or Archimede, or Steinhart ...); The A-11 and the Field Watch are not currently homaged AFAIK.

(I did leave JohnF's cockpit clock dial out of the picture, as I think making a chronograph movement with 24h principal time indication is in a completely different category of project altogether.)

hotnerd

October 9th, 2008, 20:14

Crusader

October 9th, 2008, 20:26

I think it will be possible to commision a watch with our specifications from Stowa or Laco.

I am not sure how easy it will be to do this project with Bulova or Hamilton :think: Unless you are thinking of having Stowa or Laco make a homage A-11 watch? But then it will not be from the "original manufacturer".

Cheers,
Bhanu

For an A-11 homage, I think one would need to approach an American watchmaker to preserve the American connection - fortunately, there are a number of them around. :-)

Nalu

October 9th, 2008, 20:28

I'd support any of the three projects mooted by Crusader. I can provide sample photos of various WWWs if needed. I don't have any photos of my A-11 and don't own a Baumester A dial, though one is on The List.

JohnF

October 9th, 2008, 22:49

Hi -

Agree with Martin here: the A11 must be, in keeping with the homage philosophy that was the driving spirit of the Laco we all know and love, made by a US watchmaker. There is the problem of movement, etc., and there's a lot to be thought about.

The A11 has a rather complicated history: I've seen ordinance numbers such as W33-038ac-6601 and W30-053ac-1321, for instance; spec 94-28734-B seems to be a common denominator. Generally speaking, the watch made for the air forces did not have luminous hands: the version made for the army had this as an option (stamped OFA-XXXX on the case back). The vast majority had black dials, but Elgin made some for the USAAC with white dials.

Movements were made by Elgin, Bulova and Waltham. Hamilton made military movements, but apparently NOT for the A11. Given that these folks aren't around any more, we need to either find a box of movements or find an alternative.

In any case (pun intended) it's a hacking movement with central seconds.

Now, as befitting my role on WUS as vintages mod, I just *happen* to have a fairly pristine copy of TM 9-1575, the War Department Technical Manual for Wrist Watches, Pocket Watches, Stop Watches and Clocks from 6 April 1945. Shall we agree that this is a definitive source? :think:

Let me describe what it says: The Elgin wrist watch, model 1783, grade 539, is equipped with a waterproof case with a screw-type back and a sweep second hand. The movement is 16 jewel. The addition of the sweep second hand requires a hollow center wheel pinion, a sweep second hand bridge assembly, and an upper third wheel. The mainspring barrel bridge is drilld and tapped to permit attachment of the sweep second pinion bridge with a screw. The third wheel pinion is longer to permit attachment of the upper third wheel.

Now, most other sources identify the 539 movement as a 15 jewel movement, but this definitely states it as being a 16 jewel movement.

So what does this look like?

This is shamelessly stolen from Darlor in Canada, an excellent vendor according to Ray over on vintages:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w233/JohnF1956/elgin7772_big.jpg

This is from Dr. Ranfft's excellent web site:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w233/JohnF1956/Elgin_539.jpg

So, what does this mean?

Unless someone has a couple of hundred of these as NOS lying around, we need to find an updated movement. While the ETA 2801 immediately comes to mind, it ain't quite the same...

So, that's the basics. There's a lot more to discuss and decide: let the comments begin!

JohnF

Crusader

October 9th, 2008, 23:11

Personally, to keep the watch reasonably priced and maintainable, I'd settle for a 2801 or (as in the case of the Laco) a stripped-down 2824 as the movement.

It would still be neat to have an American connection, but seeing that there are a number of small American watch companies represented on watchuseek, either with official fora or as sponsors, I think that this is an alley well worth exploring.

ht8306

October 10th, 2008, 03:57

Here's a IWC and Stowa pictures taken from:

http://www.qahill.com/tz/b-uhr/b-uhr.html
Images are from Gisbert A. Joseph (http://www.joseph-watches.com/), Roland Kammer, Michael Friedberg, among others.

IWC
http://www.qahill.com/tz/b-uhr/iwc-big.jpg

Stowa
http://www.qahill.com/tz/b-uhr/stowa-big.jpg

ht8306

October 10th, 2008, 04:12

Found another one. A Wempe original :-!

Picture from: http://www.heirloom2.com/military.htm#LACO_WORLD_WAR_II_BEOBACHTUNGS-UHREN_

http://www.chronoking.com/hg/20070722/WP771.JPG

Crusader

October 10th, 2008, 08:12

The Laco has a distinctively fat hour hand, compared with some of the other makes.

I think we would need an original Laco indeed.

Lonetime

October 10th, 2008, 08:24

Count me in for something.:-)

brainless

October 10th, 2008, 11:23

@JohnF:

"Now, most other sources identify the 539 movement as a 15 jewel movement, but this definitely states it as being a 16 jewel movement."

Hi John,

in both pictures I can see (engraved in the bridge) "15 jewels" - or am I wrong??

Volker

ht8306

October 10th, 2008, 11:34

Found it! A Laco Type A :)

http://artimg.diamondwatchcompany.de/1434/image00003_max.jpg

hwilsdorf

October 10th, 2008, 13:24

Guys,

If you are seriously considering a Type A dial, I am definitely IN! :-!

Here is the dial Mr Peter Pfeiffer emailed me :
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e10/hwilsdorf/Laco%20WUS%20LE/dial_hands_Type-A.jpg

P.S. I have to stress that it has to be a Frank_be vectorized dial! :-)

Jason

hwilsdorf

October 10th, 2008, 13:38

Looks like it's missing the outer white ring again? The numerals and indices looks okay. BTW, the illustration provided is for a 42mm case. Ready to rock n roll! b-)

frank_be

October 10th, 2008, 13:54

Looks like it's missing the outer white ring again? The numerals and indices looks okay. BTW, the illustration provided is for a 42mm case. Ready to rock n roll! b-)

Looks good from far but far from good... :-d where have I heard that one before?

I hope someone can give me a head on hi-res picture of the real watch and you will all see there are differences.

The differences are small, but it makes or breaks a watch face IMO.

E.g. some IWC pilot watches and all the Damasko's have the same font and it looks way too new. This font doesn't have the correct forms of that era.

But as said before, I would be honored to convert another dial.

BTW, I like the IWC B-uhr font the most, but that's personal taste of course.

Greetings,
Frank

ht8306

October 10th, 2008, 14:04

Hi Frank,

Can this work?

http://artimg.diamondwatchcompany.de/1434/image00003_max.jpg

frank_be

October 10th, 2008, 14:19

From the way it is photographed yes,

But also no, because it has to be a much higher resolution, and the second hand has to move to get the exact form of the "2"

Also maybe the luminous paint has been redone at some point in time and it seems on this picture that the paint is a bit too thick applied. But that is hard to tell from this picture.

Greetings,
Frank

hwilsdorf

October 10th, 2008, 16:34

Hows this Frank?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e10/hwilsdorf/LacoTypeA.jpg

Erik_H

October 10th, 2008, 17:05

Hwilsdorf, interesting photomanipulating but I think this dial has been too much "restored" by applying new paint to numbers and indices.

Erik_H

hwilsdorf

October 10th, 2008, 17:10

No wonder the "9" looks funny but I thought they used to hand paint them?

Anybody else has a 1940's type A who would like to share their dial?

Cheers mate!

Erik_H

October 10th, 2008, 17:12

I am trying to give an interim shortlist (in no particular order) of this thread so far to facilitate discussion

- Laco B-Uhr Baumuster A, more or less along the lines of the current Baumuster B Limited Edition
- A-11 American Military Aviation Watch (as made by Elgin, Waltham, Bulova and Hamilton)
- Field Watch (DH/WWW) with seconds subdial (e.g. as made by Stowa)

I would be most interested in either an A-11 or a Field Watch. It will be a much more challenging project compared to a Laco Baumuster A; but I am willing to go all the way. Whatever the majority decides; I will be in as this is too fun to miss out.

Erik_H

Hary

October 10th, 2008, 18:30

Never get enough of Baumuster A. 42mm from Laco, handwinding with 2801 would be nice. I'm in :-!

daviswalker

October 10th, 2008, 19:12

I would be most interested in either an A-11 or a Field Watch. It will be a much more challenging project compared to a Laco Baumuster A; but I am willing to go all the way. Whatever the majority decides; I will be in as this is too fun to miss out.

Erik_H

My preference is for the WWW, but would be very happy to come along with the A-11 project as well. For either, I have little experience but would be happy to help advance the project in any way I can. No interest in the Baumuster A for me.

Dave

Janne

October 11th, 2008, 01:50

Unfortunately no interest for a Baumuster A either.
A-11, WWW ot that lovely dashboard clock-dial.
I still think the "dashboard" would be a worthy successor, more difficult and more unique.
Got an idea. That Czech Airforce Longines - would Longines want to play with us?

hotnerd

October 11th, 2008, 03:50

Crusader

October 11th, 2008, 09:37

Jan, Longines (Swatch) will be tough to convince for a special edition. Even if we managed, it will not be a "resonably priced" watch :-(

Therefore, it is much easier to get a project done with independent watch makers such as Stowa and Laco. A field watch from Stowa or Baumuster A from Laco is easily possible.

Accomplishing an A-11 watch from an American company? Well, Hamilton and Bulova are the same issue as Longines. Waltham and Elgin are probably names licensed by Asian companies who may be interested but my confidence to get it done with them low for what we want.

Then, we can approach a company such as RGM or d.freemont and it is very possible to get the project done. But, unlike Laco project, these companies are not the original manufacturers of the A-11 watch. As long as this is not a big deal (I am sure it will be to some), then we can get this project done.

Again, ideal situation is to find that independent watch company that produced military watches during the war and still does for authenticity.

What's everyone's thoughts?

Cheers,
Bhanu

Personally, authenticity for an A-11 homage would extend to the company being American, even if they are small and/or upstart. Having it made by, say, a German or British company would be somwhow wrong, though I am the first to admit that my choice of "authenticity" in this respect is entirely arbitrary.

I think convincing an OEM to reproduce a small run of watches will be very difficult to achieve. Keep in mind that Laco didn't build the Pil-Mil special from scratch, but only changed the engraving, crown and dial/hands. You'll be looking at a completely different cost level when you are talking about custom cases, or modified movements.

Janne

October 12th, 2008, 09:18

We have done WW2. What about a Huntercased WW1 watch?

hotnerd

October 13th, 2008, 01:20

Martin,

You raised very valid points. My POV was that we were able to accomplish the Laco project because it is an "independent" OEM and they did not have to modify a lot of components.

If we approach an independent company in US, the primary issue will be keeping the watch affordable. It will be true more so with an upstart company. The company will have to import several components and then cost of assembling the watches. Seeing how much customization we desired with Laco (rightfully so), it will be very difficult to achieve that with an American company and keep the watch affordable.

For example, last year I went to d.Freemont (then in Arizona) and saw a beautiful chronograph model. The only issue was that the movement was not decorated and it had a display case back. I requested just for asthetic reasons, to replace the screws with blue screws. The cost of doing that was $700USD.

I definately believe in trying our best and we should do so. However, I also believe in being practical. Laco and Stowa actually go beyond the norm of accomplishing such projects. They are also (luckliy for us) in the right region for watchmaking where parts can be resourced somewhat easily. A US company or an upstart will have a tough time sourcing exact parts (think Laco crown), let alone accomodating our customization.

- Is this A-11 homage watch acceptable to be made by non-OEM?
- What will be considered a resonable price for this watch (for features)?
- If parts are sourced from China; is that acceptable?

Imho our best option for an Affordable watch will be a field watch by Stowa and or Baumuster A by Laco.

Cheers,
Bhanu

bullitt731

October 13th, 2008, 04:06

In terms of quality, available componets and keeping the price affordable I think we will be limited to German companies. MKII would be a great fit, but Bill has so many iron's in the fire I doubt he would be interested. RGM might be an option, but I doubt they would be interested in building anything in our price range. I guess there is no harm in at least asking them though if the A-11 ends up being the model chosen.

Personally living in the US I would pay dearly for an A-11 homage. I would prefer to have it made in the US, but that may not be a realistic option. Under these circumstances asking a German company to make the watch is fine with me if we can find one that is interested. I believe it is much more important to produce a quality product at an affordable price.

In any case I will support whatever decision is made based on the fact that the Laco project turned out so nicely and we have so many dedicated forum members.

Please let me know if I can help in any way. :-!

abraxas

October 22nd, 2008, 18:05

The A-11. That is my favorite, too. b-)

http://fixedblade.us/db3/00276/fixedblade.us/_uimages/Elgin1.jpg

How about the 24H version?

john

JohnF

October 22nd, 2008, 20:42

Hi -

I've also got that watch, albeit on the classic khaki band.

However, it's not an A-11. The movement inside is a Elgin 685, the original Elgin A-11 has an Elgin 539 with 16 jewels (this according to the TM 9-1575 War Department Technical Manual: Ordinance Maintenance, Wrist Watches, Pocket Watches, Stop Watches and Clocks from 6 April 1945, War Department, i.e. the repair manual for military watchmakers...). The movement in the A-11 is actually the Model 1783 Grade 539, 8/0 size.

You've probably got engraving on the back showing it as an A-11. The case is fine, just that someone, somewhere, has a bunch of NOS Elgin 685 movements from gun cameras from the Korean war and NOS A-11 cases, and put the cases and the movements, along with the dials, together. I got mine on eBay, and I call it my A11Franken. We've had a discussion on this over on vintages a while ago, and I am convinced - it took some convincing, too - that this is, unfortunately, not a real issued watch.

It's an outstanding movement: 18 jewels, 18'000 beat, 23.7mm diameter, 8/0 size, and was adjusted for multiple positions. It was manufactured in both 12 and 24 hour variants, and was probably one of the finer Elgin movements made for the military. I know mine shows excellent isochronism and runs around 7s/day fast, which given the age is righteous indeed. :-)

But the production run was in 1952, according to Ranfft.

JohnF