Looking for info on "Jacques" watches from late 1800s, early 1900s

[sfam]

Greetings,

I just recently got into watch collecting, and have really gotten excited about transitional WWI style lug watches, where pocket watches with porcelain dials have been converted into wrist watches.

I recently won an auction for such a transitional watch. The dial has the word "Jacques" on it. I am trying to determine its history, including country of origin, and approximate manufacture date. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated!

http://www.communibuild.com/watch/jacques_watch/jacques_2.jpg

The inside has no details that I can see which tell me anything about it. Unfortunately, in doing searches, I get deluged with watches that have "Jacques" in the title, and have so far had no luck in even identifying the country of origin.

The watch is about 45mm in diameter, and has a snap-back case on it (the inside of the case has no distinguishing marks that can help identify, but I'll post the picture below). It has a push-button mechanism to set the time. Incidentally, the watch is in running condition and seems to keep decent time even though the R/S meter is pegged to one side.

Here's some shots of the crown, inside and snap-back case.

http://www.communibuild.com/watch/jacques_watch/jacques_8.jpg


http://www.communibuild.com/watch/jacques_watch/jacques_11.jpg


http://www.communibuild.com/watch/jacques_watch/jacques_10.jpg

Again, any help, including informed guesses would be greatly appreciated. I'm not at all knowledgeable enough about the movements to identify this one, but perhaps that might indicate where this is from. Thanks in advance.

[Marrick]

There's athread here about a French maker:

http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/lofiversion/index.php/t31495.html

[Hartmut Richter]

The movement is clearly a ca. 1900 pin set, crown winding Swiss "Le Locle" style pocket watch movement which seems to have been put in a wrist watch case. I don't think that it's a converted PW since the elongated crown tubus typical of PWs is not there. The movement is one of the higher class, 15 jewel lever escapement calibres; however, as there is no maker's mark, it may have been made in the cottage industry. As for "Jaques", they may have been one of the many makers using generic movement and applying their name to the dial, just like there were then, have been since and even exist now.

Hartmut Richter

[JohnF]

Hi -

Also note that the regulator adjustment lever is WAY off the advance markings. This either points to a movement that desperately needs so TLC or one that someone worked on who had no idea that you should NEVER move this beyond the marked limits. Those limits are there for a reason, and moving that lever beyond them is a BIG no-no, as you may place stress on part of the hairspring assembly that will lead to a catastrophic failure (i.e. it might break clean off!).

Has the watch been worked on recently? It looks like it could certainly need some TLC...

JohnF

[sfam]

Hi -

Also note that the regulator adjustment lever is WAY off the advance markings. This either points to a movement that desperately needs so TLC or one that someone worked on who had no idea that you should NEVER move this beyond the marked limits. Those limits are there for a reason, and moving that lever beyond them is a BIG no-no, as you may place stress on part of the hairspring assembly that will lead to a catastrophic failure (i.e. it might break clean off!).

Has the watch been worked on recently? It looks like it could certainly need some TLC...

JohnF

Hi Guys, I truly appreciate the responses. I actually just got the watch in the mail yesterday, and from the ebay ad (the pictures posted were from that ad - got the watch from Singapore), I don't think it has been touched for quite some time. I'm probably going to be dropping it off at a fairly good watchmaker in Herndon, VA today to see about fixing it. I personally haven't touched anything on it, other than winding and setting it.

I think I got it for a relative steal at $52 bucks, so I don't mind putting another $100+ or so to fix it up. Regarding the regulator adjustment lever being way out of bounds, going towards the "fast" side I believe, could this be a sign that the mainspring is worn out and that the previous owner was trying to compensate for this?

EDIT: I think I may be wrong - it appears to be pushed to the slower side of the regulator adjustment.

[sfam]

The movement is clearly a ca. 1900 pin set, crown winding Swiss "Le Locle" style pocket watch movement which seems to have been put in a wrist watch case. I don't think that it's a converted PW since the elongated crown tubus typical of PWs is not there. The movement is one of the higher class, 15 jewel lever escapement calibres; however, as there is no maker's mark, it may have been made in the cottage industry. As for "Jaques", they may have been one of the many makers using generic movement and applying their name to the dial, just like there were then, have been since and even exist now.

Hartmut Richter

Thanks so much for the response. I'm still fairly new to this stuff so I hope you don't mind if I ask for some clarifications. Does this mean you believe this to be a Swiss-made watch or just in the Le Locle style? I'm guessing 1900 pin set refers to the approximate year (or timeframe) it was made? Regarding the wrist watch case, does this mean you think the watch was removed from a PW case, perhaps at a later date, and then added to the wrist watch case, or would this have been normal to just take an existing pocketwatch style movement at that time and put it in a wrist watch case at its inception? Meaning, do you believe it was probably always a wrist watch or later converted?

Also, is there a source you would recommend where I could learn more about the cottage industries of Switzerland around the turn of the century?

[sfam]

There's athread here about a French maker:

http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/lofiversion/index.php/t31495.html

Interesting! Wonder if there's a relation.

[Hartmut Richter]

"Thanks so much for the response. I'm still fairly new to this stuff so I hope you don't mind if I ask for some clarifications."

Not at all.

"Does this mean you believe this to be a Swiss-made watch or just in the Le Locle style?"

The movement is almost certainly Swiss. Even now, the Swiss export their movements and others put them in their watches (Germans, Italians, etc.) so the watch need not be Swiss. But it probably is.

"I'm guessing 1900 pin set refers to the approximate year (or timeframe) it was made?"

Yes, such movements were common around ca. 1870-1910 - before then, the key set and wound version was more common, after that, everything was operated by the crown. If it was key set and wound, the centre wheel and the one on the mainsping should have square extensions to put a key in. If it was fully crown operated ("keyless works), it shouldn't have the pin on the case next to the crown. 1900 is therefore a somewhat approximate age.

"Regarding the wrist watch case, does this mean you think the watch was removed from a PW case, perhaps at a later date, and then added to the wrist watch case, or would this have been normal to just take an existing pocketwatch style movement at that time and put it in a wrist watch case at its inception? Meaning, do you believe it was probably always a wrist watch or later converted?"

It might have been taken from a PW but remember that many (probably most) of the early wrist watches were made by using up old stock of PW movements in the factory and putting them into wrist watch cases. I would think that this is what happened here.

"Also, is there a source you would recommend where I could learn more about the cottage industries of Switzerland around the turn of the century?"

No. The cottage industry was that in which, in a remote Swiss valley, farmers spent their winter months making bits and pieces for watch movements. One specialized in jewels, the other in gear wheels, etc. and someone else put the lot together. If the company that finally made the watch put it all together, no makers name would appear on the movement - the one on the dial would be valid. Even if it was all assembled by some farmer, there will probably be no makers's mark on the movement since he didn't maintain a regular "ebaucherie" (factory specializing in making raw movements for the watch industry). Only ebaucheries and watch companies had marks. Naturally, the documentation of the Swiss cottage industry is zero so you won't find anything about them anywhere.

Hartmut Richter

[sfam]

Thanks again Hartmut - I'm definitely getting an education on this thread!