'Frankenwatch' Definition question

[jalexb]

If you restore or put together a vintage watch correctly in the sense that the parts are original & are that which would have typically come from the manufacturer, (I say typically as I've noticed some companies offered several choices of options i.e. gold, stainless, different colored dials, hands, bands etc.) would that newly restored watch be considered a 'Frankenwatch'? Thanks in advance.

[Shangas]

For something to be considered "Franken" anything, it would have to contain non-original parts. So if everything in the watch was original, and it was all taken apart, cleaned, oiled and reassembled and nothing new apart from perishable components (such as the mainspring) went back into the watch - it would be considered original.

But say if you did the same thing, but put the watch back together with half the pieces coming from a non-identical watch - it would be a frankenwatch.

That's my understanding, anyway.

[mondodec]

I'd add a qualification to Shangas' definition. His definition of 'original' is pretty spot on.

But if you were to replace some parts with genuine parts from , say, an identical parts movement (say because of wear) and those parts met factory spoecifications for the specific model AND the 'signature' parts were not replaced (Bridges with serial numbers etc and stamps in respect to adjustemnt) it could be said that you still have a factory specced example that you could call 'genuine' and not a frankenwatch.

A franken IMO is when various parts from various models are put together and claimed to be a particular model.

Cheers

desmond

[Ray916MN]

If you restore or put together a vintage watch correctly in the sense that the parts are original & are that which would have typically come from the manufacturer, (I say typically as I've noticed some companies offered several choices of options i.e. gold, stainless, different colored dials, hands, bands etc.) would that newly restored watch be considered a 'Frankenwatch'? Thanks in advance.

I would consider it a Frankenwatch if several parts were combined in a way that the factory never originally produced. For example for a given model, although a gold case may have been offered and a linen dial and lumed dagger hands, if the manufacturer never produced a watch with this combination, then it is a Frankenwatch. What is implied here is that the case, dial and hands came from 3 different models or versions of a watch.

A close cousin to the Frankenwatch is a watch with un-original hands, bezel, dial or some other single part. For a while, the rage was to refit Benz hands to diver watches, not a Frankenwatch, but a watch with un-original hands.

[Eeeb]

I would consider it a Frankenwatch if several parts were combined in a way that the factory never originally produced. For example for a given model, although a gold case may have been offered and a linen dial and lumed dagger hands, if the manufacturer never produced a watch with this combination, then it is a Frankenwatch. What is implied here is that the case, dial and hands came from 3 different models or versions of a watch.

A close cousin to the Frankenwatch is a watch with un-original hands, bezel, dial or some other single part. For a while, the rage was to refit Benz hands to diver watches, not a Frankenwatch, but a watch with un-original hands.

I generally agree. Even if it has original parts, if the watch was not originally made in that form, it is a Frankenstein.

I notice there is an Omega diver which has been reconstructed from original parts by a parts supplier. The Omega folks thought it a form of Frankenwatch ... I suppose one might be able to tell it from an original if the numbers on the movement, bracelet, et.al. did not match.

That said, sometimes you can make a better watch by changing pieces/parts. But it is dishonest to pass it off as original.

[Marrick]

Here's one I made earlier - and why.

I bought a Universal Geneve Polerouter (my 3rd) off ebay last year. The picture was terrible, but it was described as in GWO and in good condition. When it arrived, I found that the case had been a chrome plated one that had lost nearly all its plating. I got a partial refund - after some haggling.

I considered having the case replated - but the quote was £60 - as much as I'd ended up paying for the watch. Anyway, the way the back fitted on didn't seem quite right. So I went to my local watchmaker who diagnosed that the brass on the watch had actually worn away at the back - so replating was not going to be worth it. He suggested I look out for a replacement case.

Now, replacement UG cases are pretty scarce. Having failed to win a couple, another steel one of apparently the right size appeared on US ebay. I emailed the seller to ask if my movement would fit. His one word reply was 'Yes' - so I bought it. Not particularly cheaply and with a high shipping charge.

When it arrived, my movement and dial just didn't fit right in it. The bezel was off, and I could not get it to stay on. So - after a lot of effort - I gave up and went back to my watchmaker. He had it for months. Eventually, he found that a Seiko 5 ring (I'm not sure the exact terminology) would fit inside and hold the dial and movement in the right position. He then found that the bezel did not fit the case. It was, by now, far too late to complain to the US case seller. At the watchmaker's suggestion, I have glued the bezel on with araldite. The movement is a 218-2 (1960 - 1962); the case back has 1969 scratched on the inside; the Seiko silver ring looks right; and I do not know if the bezel is UG or not (although it is high quality).

So - its a Frankenwatch. If I had my time again, I would have cut my losses and just resold the original piece as it was. But it looks good, I think, although the crown might be bigger.;-)

http://inlinethumb04.webshots.com/5507/2237537240101294029S425x425Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/44235/2478097530101294029S425x425Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb19.webshots.com/31378/2621471300101294029S425x425Q85.jpg

The other 2 shown below.

[jalexb]

Many thanks for all of those personalized definitions. I can see the logic behind them & agree. And thanks for sharing the UG pictures along with the experiences that accompanied it - very nice to read.

[tomshep]

At the risk of being torn to pieces for using the car analogy, there is a lot of similarity with car restoring. If you simply cannot get the right part but can save 99% of the original, then you should, in my view. I'm bidding on a NOS which is in better condition than a friend's rusted heirloom. As much as can be kept original will go back into the movement but that will be the plates, the keyless works and the stem. I'm not going to get precious about the barrel because the originality is compromised. To me it is a Frankie (but in no way a fake,) because a majority of the parts will be renewed. My friend will see it as GrandPa's watch, fully restored with identical parts to those that came out.

[Eeeb]

...To me it is a Frankie (but in no way a fake,) because a majority of the parts will be renewed. My friend will see it as GrandPa's watch, fully restored with identical parts to those that came out.

Well, it's both. In my view of collectivity, if it does not run, it is a parts watch. To me, running reproductions rank above parts watches. So any non-original parts which are necessary restore function are worth while in the calculus of collecting.

But we are all free to have differing opinions. |>

[tomshep]

Yes Eeeb, that's the dilemma. If it is indistinguishable from the factory supplied item (even if it is my own cut-and-shut;-) then nobody but me and he knows it to be a Frankie.

Regarding Universals.
The cases fall apart and the bits are nigh-on unobtainable. Don't go near them unless you want an elegant and understated timekeeper of beguiling charm. I have just bought a whole movement to repair mine. It will travel half way around the world and it has cost me a pretty penny for no more than a wheel and a second hand (which makes it a repair and not a Frankie to me). The waiting is driving me mad because after so many disappointments, I dare not throw this one back into the bay. It seems to be one of those watches that just grows on your wrist, despite being tiny by today's standards. There's a lot of wreckage out there and good ones seem few and far between, so anybody who can save one deserves the pleasure of wearing it. In the unlikely event of a correct bezel turning up, it can be added which will give even more pleasure, so good luck to you Marrick.

[Marrick]

Yes Eeeb, that's the dilemma. If it is indistinguishable from the factory supplied item (even if it is my own cut-and-shut;-) then nobody but me and he knows it to be a Frankie.

Regarding Universals.
The cases fall apart and the bits are nigh-on unobtainable. Don't go near them unless you want an elegant and understated timekeeper of beguiling charm. I have just bought a whole movement to repair mine. It will travel half way around the world and it has cost me a pretty penny for no more than a wheel and a second hand (which makes it a repair and not a Frankie to me). The waiting is driving me mad because after so many disappointments, I dare not throw this one back into the bay. It seems to be one of those watches that just grows on your wrist, despite being tiny by today's standards. There's a lot of wreckage out there and good ones seem few and far between, so anybody who can save one deserves the pleasure of wearing it. In the unlikely event of a correct bezel turning up, it can be added which will give even more pleasure, so good luck to you Marrick.

Thanks for that. But I won't hold my breath! Good luck with yours too.|>