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View Full Version : World's Oldest Clock Discovered?


Somewhere else
November 13th, 2009, 04:02
The news has slowly filtered out, well troweled over with commentary about Nero's orgies, that the revolving dining room of the "Golden House" was discovered at the beginning of this month by archaeologists.

Here is a good report on it from the BBC , which professional archaeologists tut-tut over, but which covers the fact pretty well:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8282007.stm

What is interesting about this "revolving room" is that Seutonius tells us that it "revolved night and day, like the heavens". It may not be too much of a leap in supposition to think that it revolved in time with the heavens and was, in effect, a proto clock. Given that we have extensive mechanical artifacts from the Greek and Roman eras: the Tower of the Winds in Athens, the Antikythera Device, the "Box of the Moon" from 4th or 5th Century AD Eastern Roman empire, the astrolabe and astronomical water clocks from both Alexandria and several European sites, the evidence seems to be building undeniably to point to a European origin for Su Sungs supposed astronomical proto clock in 12th Century China.

Archaeologist working on the Golden House, which was Nero's palace in the center of Rome, have found the remains of his revolving dining room, which had a four meter pillar for support, and was in turn supported by a series of arches.

What is particularly frustrating is that a number of mentions have been made that they have also found the machinery which supposedly powered it.

If this is true, then the history of the clock will have to be rewritten again. Even if they have not found any mechanism, if research can establish conclusively that this is the remains of Nero's famous room, then Chinese claims of priority for inventing water powered Orrery--of which no remains or supporting evidence have yet to be found- which can be seen as a proto clock have been conclusively disproven.

That is..until whatever the next discovery is.

Mangler0075
November 13th, 2009, 04:13
Wow Just freaking Wow.. what else is there to say... :-)

Janne
November 13th, 2009, 04:48
Nero is My Man! A Proto WIS!

Since moving here almost 3 years ago, I have watched counless programs on History channel (?) about all the early Chinese inventions.
In most cases, the "proof" was a (very white and whole) document just discovered by some Chinese researcher.
I think there is a try going on to change the History!

Somewhere else
November 13th, 2009, 11:14
Nero is My Man! A Proto WIS!

Since moving here almost 3 years ago, I have watched counless programs on History channel (?) about all the early Chinese inventions.
In most cases, the "proof" was a (very white and whole) document just discovered by some Chinese researcher.
I think there is a try going on to change the History!

As well as being a watchmaker by trade, I speak Japanese and Chinese and hold university level degrees in both. I think Chinese claims to have invented the clock are pretty much a total fraud.

It's like Chinese watch movements: they have a lot to be proud of and they have absolutely no need to make fakes, but they're the last people it seems to realize this.

I hope the discovery of Nero's revolving room puts an end to at least their puffery about clocks.

Ray MacDonald
November 13th, 2009, 15:57
This is an interesting thread about clock history but let's avoid the political commentary.

Janne
November 13th, 2009, 19:35
Now, how would power the movement of the room (clock)?
Water? Muscle power (human, animal?)?

In the clock theory, I am not aware of normal people dividing the day into units/hours?
I mean, if it was not a custom yet to divide the day into segments, why would Nero have the need?

I am aware that scientists did have a need for a kind of time keeping, but only them? Or?

Somewhere else
November 14th, 2009, 05:09
Now, how would power the movement of the room (clock)?
Water? Muscle power (human, animal?)?

In the clock theory, I am not aware of normal people dividing the day into units/hours?
I mean, if it was not a custom yet to divide the day into segments, why would Nero have the need?

I am aware that scientists did have a need for a kind of time keeping, but only them? Or?

The room would have been unquestionably water powered. We have the remnants of something quite similar (without the mechanism) in the Tower of the Winds in Athens, which exists to this day. Solla de Price, who brought the Antikythera mechanism to light also studied the Tower of the Winds. There are the remnants of resevoirs , holding tanks and an entire water control mechanism necessary to move a very large Orrery/proto clock. The Tower of the Winds pre dates Nero by over 100 years.

The Greeks and the Romans had, by the time of Nero (around 50 AD) already been dividing both the day and the night into hours for over 500 years. We have over 200 sundials from that era, as well as numerous remnants of water clocks including astronomical clocks that showed the movements in the heavens.

The use of water clocks and timing devices was so ingrained in Greek and Roman culture that the speeches by lawyers in court cases were timed by water clocks. This practice started with the Greeks and was adopted by the Romans

Janne
November 14th, 2009, 23:36
Another grain of knowledge added! Many thanks!