Patek philippe chronograph - opinions please!!!

[NewGuyWithOldPatek]

Hello Everyone. To preface, in the past I have dealt with several Patak Philippe pocket watches but cannot claim to be an expert. Hence, my posting here to benefit by the wisdom of other members.

I am currently in negotiations to purchase a Patek Philippe Chronograph pocket watch, whose pictures are attached. The movement is an older one and the seller states is marked PP with the serial number underneath the dial. From past experience with Patek Philippe pocket watches I know that they did put their mark and serial number underneath the dial on older pocket watches.

Naturally, the seller is reluctant to remove the dial himself. Equally understandably, this makes me somewhat nervous.

This watch has been recased.

In the past when dealing with such pocket watches I have been acquainted with the seller or the watch was still in its original case marked by Patek Philippe, giving me some comfort. However, the seller in this case does offer me a full refund guarantee on the watch. Still it is better to be sure before buying than trying to get my money returned afterward.

Importantly, the watch is not cheap. Neither would I expect it to be if everything is as it is represented.

Attached are several photos of the movement which I hope the experts here can review and give me their opinions upon. Please tell me everything that you are able and offer as detailed an explanation of your views as possible.

Thanks to everyone for their time and I really hope you can make up for my own ignorance on this watch. Take care.

[Janne]

I am totally ignorant about the watch, but I would just like to say, that in I would not pay top $$ for a recased PP.

Is it possible to have a pic of the dial?

Also a pic of the inner caseback would be very useful. Is the case 14 or 18k gold?

[NewGuyWithOldPatek]

Thank you for your prompt reply to my post.

To answer the previous questions:
1. I'll try to get a photo of the dial in a day or two. It does say Patek Philippe & Cie (small underline beneath the ie) above the hands and Geneve beneath the hands. I am not in doubt about the authenticity of the dial.
2. I'll also try to get a photo of the case, but that isn't very important to me. It is a sterling silver case. The value of the case is only as silver.

My main concern on this is whether the movement is authentic.

Thanks again and will try to get the photo up presently.

[Janne]

Ok, me (the Ignorasmus) again.
WHY is a PP chrono movement cased in silver? Strange.
This is not just a pocketwatch, it is a PP. and, not just ANY PP movement, it is suposedly a chrono PP!

IMO, if this was my watch, and if the movement is legit, basically I would feel the need to send it to PP to have it properly recased (and serviced) . That is the only way to do it justice, and get the full value.

That is in my opnion, of course others will soon chime in with their thoughts!

[NewGuyWithOldPatek]

Thanks, Janne. You've actually read my mind. If I decide to purchase I will send it to Patek to have it rejuvinated and properly cased. Just need to be sure on authenticity before I invest such a sum.

[Janne]

I tried to look on the finishing of the base movement. My laptop is too small to see if it is finished to PP standard. The parts of the chrono are not.
But, what do I know?

Edit: I am a total Idiot! Send an email to PP with the pics, they will tell you!!!

[NewGuyWithOldPatek]

That's a great idea. I had no idea they did such reviews. Perhaps they can shed some light on the matter, but I hope that everyone will continue to post their views / opinions / assessments of the movement. Thanks again!

[Janne]

They do. they have the archives filled with all info they need to expertly not only see if it is Legit, but also to rebuild it as new condition!

[NewGuyWithOldPatek]

I've sent a letter to Patek in Switzerland asking them to review my photos. However, I strongly doubt they will do it for a variety of reasons. Not least of which, they won't want to be held liable for any kind of assurance either way on the watch. As for the archives, that costs 100 Swiss Francs and can take up to two months. Needless to say, that is not feasible under the circumstances.

So if there are any other members opinions out there on the authenticity of this movement please post your comments. Also, please bear in mind that this movement is about 100 years old and has been recased so the finish will not appear as new. Anyway, I'm eager to hear any and all opinions. Thanks.

[Somewhere else]

I've sent a letter to Patek in Switzerland asking them to review my photos. However, I strongly doubt they will do it for a variety of reasons. Not least of which, they won't want to be held liable for any kind of assurance either way on the watch. As for the archives, that costs 100 Swiss Francs and can take up to two months. Needless to say, that is not feasible under the circumstances.

So if there are any other members opinions out there on the authenticity of this movement please post your comments. Also, please bear in mind that this movement is about 100 years old and has been recased so the finish will not appear as new. Anyway, I'm eager to hear any and all opinions. Thanks.

This is a plausible fake and not a good one. As far as I know, Patek Phillipe never made cylinder escapement watches, or at least, I have never seen one, and I've looked at quite a few auction catalogs. The balance, in particular is very pedestrian. There appear to be no timing screws and no temperature compensation screws, and the balance is not even a bimetallic balance.

FAKE! The workmanship of the chrono mechanism seems average for a chronograph pocket watch, and there is no reasonable explanation for the watch to be recased.

Also, the big question: Where is the Patek Phillipe signature on this watch? Or I should say, from this era, Patek & Philippe. I have not seen a unsigned Patek movement. Sorry, they do not exist.

I'm going to take another look at your photos--it's impossible to go back and for between a post and the photos--and make some more comments.

DON'T BUY IT!!

[Somewhere else]

A few more comments: movement finish is very prosaic, and absolutely not Patek quality. The acid finished plates or a bit more typical of German manufacture than the Swiss, who followed French practice of jewel like finish on all exposed brass.

Also, none of the jewels appear to be rubbed in or chacon set. This also is very untypical of what you would expect in a Patek Philippe chronograph.

"F" for Fake. Don't buy it.

[lowme55]

This is an 1889 Patek Philippe pocket watch movement. Very well signed and detailed. I have to agree that this does not look legit.
http://www.bogoff.com/pocket/6428.html

[Somewhere else]

This is an 1889 Patek Philippe pocket watch movement. Very well signed and detailed. I have to agree that this does not look legit.
http://www.bogoff.com/pocket/6428.html

Thanks for posting this. It truly reinforces what I say. To which I will add two more things: Patek's somewhat (but not unusually so) distinct movement layout is completely missing (including wolf teeth rachet wheel) and also Patek watches seem to love very distinctive regulators. The Chronograph being offered is entirely lacking in this aspect too.

[radger]

Well I don't know if this is a PP or not but I disagree that the quality
of this watch is poor.

It looks to me to be late 19c Geneva work of very high quality.
It is not a cylinder escapement, it is a lever and I'm certain that the balance
will be cut, compensated and weighted with gold screws.

The 'exposed brass' is almost certainly gold frosted, the jewels are 'rubbed in'.
The chrono springs are polished and bevelled as in high quality Geneva work.

Saying that, it doesn't look like PP design.... some very high quality Geneva movements were unsigned, I'd need to see another PP with the same movement before I bought this as a Patek Phillipe.

[RON in PA]

If this was a real PP wouldn't it have a serial number?

[radger]

Definately, and I would think this movement will have a serial number
somewhere, probably under the dial, but even that wouldn't authenticate it
as a PP.

There are design elements in this PP chrono repeater which are similar
to this watch especialy in the escapement and chrono mechanism.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/olmstead/2215252708/sizes/o/in/set-72157600646063037/

This proves nothing of course.

[Somewhere else]

Well I don't know if this is a PP or not but I disagree that the quality
of this watch is poor.

It looks to me to be late 19c Geneva work of very high quality.
It is not a cylinder escapement, it is a lever and I'm certain that the balance
will be cut, compensated and weighted with gold screws.

The 'exposed brass' is almost certainly gold frosted, the jewels are 'rubbed in'.
The chrono springs are polished and bevelled as in high quality Geneva work.

Saying that, it doesn't look like PP design.... some very high quality Geneva movements were unsigned, I'd need to see another PP with the same movement before I bought this as a Patek Phillipe.

Take a closer look at the picture. That is a cylinder escapement. It is not a lever. You can clearly see the cylinder escape wheel. The watch is at rest (I believe) and there is no sign of the balance being cut, compensated or weighed with screws, gold or otherwise.

The exposed brass may be either GP or acid frosted. But it is not a finish that is at all typical of Patek and I have not (as of yet) seen a Patek with this finish. As for the chrono springs being of good quality ,...of course.

But this is neither a Patek nor is it a lever.

[radger]

I can assure you that this is a lever watch, I can see that quite
clearly. I can also see that the balance is in motion.

Good sites can be found on the net which will explain to you the basic escapement
types to be had.

I reserve my judgement as to wether or not this is a PP

[radger]

The exposed brass may be either GP or acid frosted. But it is not a finish that is at all typical of Patek and I have not (as of yet) seen a Patek with this finish. As for the chrono springs being of good quality ,...of course.

But this is neither a Patek nor is it a lever.

There is a Patek Phillipe on this forum, at this time with as gold frosted
movement.

[radger]

Having looked at this movement....

http://www.antique-watch.com/des/w6986.html

I would say that there is a very good chance that the movement in
question is in fact genuine Patek Phillipe.

[NewGuyWithOldPatek]

I want to thank everyone for their expert opinions. Please, keep them coming! It seems that there is some debate which is exactly what I had hoped since I am inclined to think it is authentic, but have reservations. The best way is to argue the pros and cons and then come to a conclusion.

As a side note, one person has mentioned that there is no legitimate reason why this was recased. On this point I must disagree. The movement is around 100 years old and though I do not know, my guess is that at some point someone ignorant of the value of the movement, or even aware of it but in need of ready cash, thought they could make some quick money by selling the gold case or melting it down. I've seen this, admittedly shortsighted, action done again and again.

So although I am entirely open to opinions on the movement, please realize that over 100 years people go through a variety of conditions. The fact that a watch has been recased cannot be used either way to prove authenticity. It will reduce the price but cannot be a proof either way. Except that sometimes people do foolish things out of desperation.

Many profuse thanks to everyone who is commenting and I hope for many more as I would like to hear any and all opinions on possible authenticity.

[Hartmut Richter]

I would also say that the quality of the movement is high and in keeping with general standards which Patek set themselves:

1. It has a Breguet hairpring

2. It has a lever, not a cylindre escapement. In a cylindre escapement watch, the escapement wheel reaches the balance staff which isn't the case here.

3. The lever is a "moustache" lever with counteracting weights on arms reaching outside the pallets.

4. The end of the hairspring is held in a bean-shaped chaton (a requirement of the "poincon de Geneve")

5. The chronograph column wheel is covered by a shield (another requirement of the "poincon de Geneve")

6. The chronograph parts are, from what I can tell, angled (edges rounded off - another requirement of the "poincon de Geneve"). Don't know about the bridges and plates, though...

It may well have "wolf teeth" winding wheels but you can't see those since they are covered by the chronograph mechanism. As for the gold plated movement, here is another by Patek which has the same finissage:

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?00&ranfft&0&2uswk&Patek-Philippe_16H5

On the whole, I won't swear to the authenticity of the movement but I certainly can't identify it as a definite fake.

Hartmut Richter

[Somewhere else]

I can assure you that this is a lever watch, I can see that quite
clearly. I can also see that the balance is in motion.

Good sites can be found on the net which will explain to you the basic escapement
types to be had.

I reserve my judgement as to wether or not this is a PP

Thank you for your concern, but as a watchmaker of 30 years, I think I just may, possibly, be able to tell basic escapement types apart.

I've gone back and taken another look at the movement and it is, as you say, a lever movement. I think the motion of the balance fooled me. Looking more closely at the balance you can, indeed, see screws also.

However, my opinion is more definite than yours. It is not a Patek. It is a middle or somewhat better quality watch modified to be a chronograph, but it is not a Patek.

[radger]

Thank you for your concern, but as a watchmaker of 30 years, I think I just may, possibly, be able to tell basic escapement types apart.

I've gone back and taken another look at the movement and it is, as you say, a lever movement. I think the motion of the balance fooled me. Looking more closely at the balance you can, indeed, see screws also.

However, my opinion is more definite than yours. It is not a Patek. It is a middle or somewhat better quality watch modified to be a chronograph, but it is not a Patek.


No offence intended, you were so adamant that this was a cylinder watch
that I assumed you didn't know the basic differences.

It is an interesting discussion in that it shows how one person can look
at a movement and regard it as being of poor or middling quality and
another sees workmanship of very high quality...this must be down to
experience.

As your opinion is very definite that this is not a Patek I'd be very pleased
if you would share with me the benefits of your experience and point
out the subtleties which make this watch a Patek.

http://www.antique-watch.com/des/w6986.html (http://www.antique-watch.com/des/w6986.html) ...........

and the watch in question 'definitely' not.

[Janne]

Does anybody know in which stage PP put the name on the movement?
I just have a crazy and wild idea, could this movement have been assembled "on the side"?

Also, did PP make all of the PP movements, or did they buy in from some other manufacturer?

[NewGuyWithOldPatek]

Admittedly, there is a lot I don't know. However I have seen many watches from the 1850-1900 period which are stated to be Patek Philippe and are marked underneath the dial. In particular, I have seen many Tiffany & Co. watches which are sold, and apparently authenticated as being Patek Philippe though they are not marked. Again, I am no expert but many of these I have seen sold by reputable dealers or auction houses that are either not marked or supposedly marked under the dial and are authentic. Does anyone have any specific information on this matter?

[radger]

Does anybody know in which stage PP put the name on the movement?
I just have a crazy and wild idea, could this movement have been assembled "on the side"?

Also, did PP make all of the PP movements, or did they buy in from some other manufacturer?

It's a mystery right enough.

Well we know that this watch has a Patek Philippe dial so we know
that it's either genuine or pretending to be a Patek.... ie a deliberate
fake.
I'm asking myself why someone would go to the lengths to produce
this level of fakery and then omit the obvious ie plastering Patek Philippe,
adjusted 8 positions etc etc all over the bridges.
Using this logic, the fact that the name is omitted from the bridges makes
the movement more likely to be genuine.

I think the movement will be fully marked on the dial plate.

[radger]

Admittedly, there is a lot I don't know. However I have seen many watches from the 1850-1900 period which are stated to be Patek Philippe and are marked underneath the dial. In particular, I have seen many Tiffany & Co. watches which are sold, and apparently authenticated as being Patek Philippe though they are not marked. Again, I am no expert but many of these I have seen sold by reputable dealers or auction houses that are either not marked or supposedly marked under the dial and are authentic. Does anyone have any specific information on this matter?

I have seen such watches but have no specific information on the
matter. All Patek movements will have a serial number however.

[NewGuyWithOldPatek]

Here are a few examples I found on the internet this morning. Obviously, I make no claim either way about whether these are or are not accurate descriptions. Just posting them to make the point that many people sell or have sold such watches claiming them to be marked under the dial. Thanks.

Patek Philippe 18k Huntingcase Pocketwatch with Patent and Archives - "Movement under the dial is marked 125998 Brevete No. 1016."
http://www.goantiques.com/detail,patek-philippe-18k,2022116.html (http://www.goantiques.com/detail,patek-philippe-18k,2022116.html)

Patek Philippe, The Forgotten Beginnings - PDF FILE - "Patek Philippe mark "PP" found under the dial of Patek watches between 1850 and 1860."
http://www.hautehorlogerie.org/IMG/pdf/Patek_Philippe_The_Forgotten_Beginnings.pdf (http://www.hautehorlogerie.org/IMG/pdf/Patek_Philippe_The_Forgotten_Beginnings.pdf)

Jones Horan Auctions, Patek Philippe
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:M11CwucDGowJ:www.jones-horan.com/0405/0405d.htm+Patek+Philippe+marked+unde+the+dial&cd=20&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&ie=UTF-8 (http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:M11CwucDGowJ:www.jones-horan.com/0405/0405d.htm+Patek+Philippe+marked+unde+the+dial&cd=20&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&ie=UTF-8)
133 Patek Philippe early stem wind 51mm in Patek Philippe stamped 18K HC, all case numbers match; fine Patek Philippe script signature on cuvette, wolf tooth winding, numberless mvt and unmarked dial all in apparently original marked Patek lined wood box, comes with chain
Photo1 (http://74.125.95.132/images/0405/pf101_a.jpg) Photo2 (http://74.125.95.132/images/0405/pf101_b.jpg) Photo3 (http://74.125.95.132/images/0405/pf101_c.jpg) Photo4 (http://74.125.95.132/images/0405/pf101_d.jpg) Photo5 (http://74.125.95.132/images/0405/pf101_e.jpg) Photo6 (http://74.125.95.132/images/0405/pf101_f.jpg) This lot sold on 11/14/04 for $2400
141 Patek Philippe with Adrien Philippe’s early winding system, gilt mvt #8814 with wolftooth winding, cylinder escapement, signed Patek and Comp under dial, unsigned Roman porcelain dial, ET 18K OF case signed “Made for Jones, Shreve, Brown and Co Boston Patek, Philippe & Co Geneva No 8814” all original, c1856, 40mm
Photo1 (http://74.125.95.132/images/0405/rp40_a.jpg) Photo2 (http://74.125.95.132/images/0405/rp40_b.jpg) Photo3 (http://74.125.95.132/images/0405/rp40_c.jpg) Photo4 (http://74.125.95.132/images/0405/rp40_d.jpg) This lot sold on 11/14/04 for $1800

[Eeeb]

Opinions are opinions. Personally I often form an opinion about the legitimacy of a watch without being able to state exactly why... though I am trying to train myself to determine how I came to that opinion. And we all don't have to concur with an opinion.

On this discussion, the linked to watch is clearly marked and is clearly of a style which Patek used for many years. But I am no Patek expert so my opinion that it is legitimate is not a strong one. On the original watch being discussed... Patek did make unmarked movements. These are often the hardest to identify as a genuine Patek and I certainly do not have the expertise to strongly assert one way or another. However, absent some form of authentication, I generally don't believe sellers claims these watches are genuine Pateks as the incentive to lie is quite large.

[NewGuyWithOldPatek]

Thank you for posting. I am grateful for everyone who is venturing an opinion. Also, I concur that not all Patek movements were signed though I am extremely wary for the reasons you mentioned. Just above I posted some links to watches and information about when Patek signed under the dial which you may find interesting. I confess I'm learning quite a bit on this subject. Thanks again and please refer anyone you may know who could shed light on the matter to the discussion on this watch.

[NewGuyWithOldPatek]

Here is an upcoming auction at Christie's with two Patek Philippe Chronograph movement. One is unsigned. Also, one is cased in blued steel which I hope shows that Patek Philippe chronographs came not only in gold or that it is uncommon they could be recased.
http://www.christies.co.uk/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=5257807

[tomshep]

That opinion is so clearly divided shows that there is sufficient and reasonable doubt to make this a risky investment.

[Somewhere else]

That opinion is so clearly divided shows that there is sufficient and reasonable doubt to make this a risky investment.

This is an enormously interesting discussion, but I think this sums it up. When buying a watch on the basis of photographs without being able to actually examine the item yourself, I would say, better safe than sorry. As I occasionally buy Pateks too, you would be surprised at the variety of what is often on various auction sites, and if you pass this one up, then you will soon have another chance at a similar and perhaps less doubtful item.

[Roland Ranfft]

Hi folks,

just a summary:

@Somewhere else: That it is a lever escapement, you've already noticed,
but even worse: Pateck Philippe made many watches with cylinder
escapement, almost all early watches, and later many ladies watches.
But I must admit: never chronographs.

@NewGuyWithOldPatek: In fact, I see many details I've seen in some Patek
Philippe chronographs - even the bridge layout is matching. But the
problem: The same details are found in contemporary chronographs from
Vacheron Constantin, Agassiz, Meylan - i.e. everyone who got this
movement kit from the LeCoultre factory and finished it after his own
standards.

Moreover chronographs of this style were not made before about 1900,
and at least after 1880 no unsigned movement left Patek Philippe. And the
seller is wrong: Early PPC movements have well the serial number under
the dial, but no manufacturer signature.

Better believe that it is a kit from Lecoultre, nicely finished by an unknown
artist.

Anyway, nothing is impossible. But I'd never buy this movement as Patek
Philippe without knowing the serial number, and withouit asking an archive
copy from PPC. Moreover a dial view of the movement would be helpful,
not only due to the number, but also because high grade watches are
finished in this invisible section as fine as on the back side.

Regards, Roland Ranfft

[Eeeb]

...Moreover a dial view of the movement would be helpful, not only due to the number, but also because high grade watches are finished in this invisible section as fine as on the back side.

Regards, Roland Ranfft

Interesting. Another new bit of information for the databanks!