Questions about case and dial damage and wear

[CottyGee]

Howdy.

Newbie here.

Questions about two things:


Dials: Difference between "aging", "patina" and "damage";


Cases: Gold filled case damage - can it be repaired? At what cost??



DIAL:

I'll show a couple of examples, both from watches 60+ years old.

My questions are:

What's the difference between "ageing", "patina" and just outright damage?


Can any of the "damage" to the dial in the Photo #2 be repaired without making the dial look like brand new?


What are the "spots" in the Photo #2? They almost look like mold or something! Is it mold, or something else? Is there an "official" vintage watch collecting term for this type of damage?



PHOTO #1:
http://members.cox.net/cottygee/curvex_patina.jpg
Is this an example of "patina"?


PHOTO #2:
http://members.cox.net/cottygee/curvex.jpg
What are the spots??!?
Seems like "damage" (a bad thing),
as opposed to "patina" (a good thing).
Yes?


CASE DAMAGE:

In Photo #2 above, it looks like the goldfill near the lugs has worn through to the base metal (see red circles I added to the photos). Does this mean the case is pretty much trashed, or can it be replated? Any idea of the cost of replating? Can it be redone to have the thickness of "gold filled", or am I pretty much limted to traditional "gold plating" of 10 micons???


Neither of these is a watch I own. The photos are just examples of some things I've seen and wondered about.

I greatly prefer the way the dial on the Photo #1 looks. To me, that look ADDS value to the piece. But the spots on Photo #2 are too obvious and severely detract from the piece. However, if the darkness of the spots could be lightened or removed (even partially) without damaging the dial - especially between the "2" and "5" markers along the right side of the dial), it would come closer to an acceptable level of "ageing"...

What causes the spots? Why does the dial on the watch in Photo #1 look so much nicer than the dial in Photo #2?

So what say ye? What knowledge can you pass along to this (obsessed) newbie?? Thank you in advance for sharing your insights, expertise and wisdom, and any suggestions you might have!

Scott

[Ray MacDonald]

Well first of all you can never really expect a 65-70 year old watch to look like a new one. If it does it has had a dial restoration for sure.
I am not an expert in case and dial finishing but I'll offer a few thoughts.
Most watch dials made since 1920 have a base metal like copper as the substrate, and are then painted. Dials before 1920 were also copper, coated in a porcelain-like "enamel".
Aging and color change of the paint through light and oxidation results in the "patina" which we often see in the vintage pieces. This is what I see in dial #1 and would be perfectly OK.
Now dial 2 looks like it has led a tougher life. Some paint is flaked off or scratched off and there's lots of dirt and - God forbid - even maybe some mold on the dial. This could be a sign that water got into the watch at one point. The movement would have suffered from that.
Cases that are "gold plated" or "gold filled" were often made in past years by mechanically rolling a thin sheet of gold over a base metal. This plating has been worn away in many places on case #2, and you just can't replate the worn areas. I'd say the case is pretty well shot as far as repair goes. Not worth the expense to restore it.
You have got a pretty good eye for what is desirable in a vintage watch case and dial, and what is not.

[JohnF]

Hi Scott (and welcome to this forum!)

I recognize the watches from eBay. :-)

Second things first: redoing a gold filled case is very hard. Gold filling means that a sheet of base metal is bonded under pressure to a very thin layer of gold, in effect "filling" any surface irregularities flat. This is a very high-quality way of balancing cost-effectiveness (not 100% gold) and wearability (it takes a LOT longer for gold-filling to wear compared to gold plating.

And actually you can't redo gold filling at all: to do so requires serious pressure and can be done only on plate, not on a formed case.

But to be honest: that wearing through is the result of 60+ years of wear and I'd accept that as part of the nature of what you are looking at. After all, it'd be sort of like taking a 20-year Leica whose black chrome plating has worn through to the brass and using a black Sharpie to cover the brass up. :-)

To the first question: photo #2 is definitely damage, albeit moderate. Yes, moderate: it's not unusual to see even more damage than that to the point of illegibility.

As to the difference between aging and patina: patina, technically speaking, is oxidation of the fundamental metals involved. Copper patina is green; iron patina is black, as is sandstone patina (desert varnish they call it). It is the color that arises when the surface is heavily oxidized.

Aging, technically speaking, is the change in surface due to the interaction of gases, heat and ultraviolet light. You can artificially age something with the proper equipment, duplicating for instance the effects of 30 years's worth of sunlight on a photographic within a few days to check the archival performance of paper and pigments, for instance.

That said, in watch jargon patina and aging are to a certain extent interchangeable. Patina would, however, refer to the shift in color you can see in the first picture: aging wouldn't account for the shift from champagne to yellowish gold.

And I doubt that the marks in the second picture could be so easily removed: if that were the case, someone would've done that. They look more like significant scratches under the minute hand and otherwise like watch oil stains that were allowed to accumulate do to sloppy maintenance. This would entail a redialing - where the original dial is reproduced with new materials using the original as a master and the original dial to rebuild the face of the dial - which isn't cheap and for many collectors reduces the value of the watch significantly...

Hope this helps!

JohnF

[CottyGee]

Thank you both for the insightful responses.

I really like the "patina" of the first watch. I'd love to buy it, but Mrs. Cotty has put the "kabash" on that idea - we leave for a cruise for our 20th wedding anniversary next Sat. and she said, "I already bought you something", which I'm HOPING might be a solid gold Omega Seamaster Deville.

So I'm a tad confused still. Some clarification:
Patina would, however, refer to the shift in color you can see in the first picture: aging wouldn't account for the shift from champagne to yellowish gold.
The statement seems to contradict itself. Did you make an error in what you meant to say, or did I miss something? I think you mean that "patina" is the color shift, like when a newspaper sits out in the sun for a few days - like the color shift in the bottom half of Photo #1 where you can see the original (champaign?) color around the edges where the dial was protected from exposure to light, and goldish color of the majority of the dial. Yes?

So, the small "spots" visible on both dials are in fact something OTHER than "patina", technically speaking? One might refer to these spots as "damage", understanding of course that such damage is pretty normal for a 60+ year old timepiece! (Especially given that 'waterproof' wasn't much of a reality back in the 40's??)


I appreciate the replies. And while I'm anything BUT a 'hardcore' watch collector, I *DO* like and appreciate the "patina" on this particular watch. To me, a restored dial - on this watch - looks too much like a fake or reproduction. (However on the Seamaster Deville, I think a repaint looks acceptable. Go figure! LOL)

[CottyGee]

By the way FWIW, the watch in Photo #1 went for $761, sniped at the very last second, I'm sure pissing off the non-sniping buyers to no end!

Do any of you have a sense of how typical this sale price was for the item? (Can I post the item# of a closed auction?? I'm gonna guess this is okay - if not LMK and I'll remove it.) Item # 8907305387.

Is this a "good deal", "bad deal" or somewhere in between?? (I'd like to know since eventually I **AM** gonna git me one of them!) I'm talking an eBay auction (or trade forum) price, as opposed to the premium rightly paid to a dealer for his support and service, risk and work.

[Ray MacDonald]

If I'm reading John's post correctly, I think he means that patina is a color development or intensification process whereas aging would be a color loss or fading. I suppose both processes could take place to some extent depending on the chemical composition of the paint used.
Whatever is going on it doesn't have to take place uniformly on a dial so you can get some dappled spots after a number of years. I don't think this is damage in the sense of scratches or dirt/oil/mold whatever contamination. It just lends character to the watch.
Curvex models are the most desirable and eagerly collected Gruens. They will fetch the highest prices in an auction.
I found the watch (ref #280 cal 330 from ca 1937) and although my 2003 price guide (Shugart) is out of date now it has it valued at about half the price it went for. I'd say a 14K gold one would certainly go for that much, but I wonder about a gold filled case. However eBay is eBay and you can't argue about its market efficiency. 30 bids is a LOT.
There are lots of other Gruens (Veri-thins for example) that are just as nice when it comes to movement and case design but go for much less because they are not called Curvex. I love vintage but I'm not about to spend $800 on a watch that can't be worn except on Sunday in sunny weather.

[CottyGee]

I love vintage but I'm not about to spend $800 on a watch that can't be worn except on Sunday in sunny weather.
Why wouldn't you wear it all the time? Just curious. (And worried there's something important I need to know! :-!)

[Ray MacDonald]

Why wouldn't you wear it all the time? Just curious. (And worried there's something important I need to know! :-!)
Well...I suppose if you were a low maintenance sort of person you could wear it more often. ;-) But you have to be careful.
These watches have no appreciable water resistance and dust protection as well as being nearly 70 years old.
I would not take a chance on it getting wet from rain or splashing or say wearing it to the beach. As well, these older watches have zero shock protection so wearing it for any sort of physical activity would be a no-no.
If the watch gets damaged there is the difficulty with finding parts and a competent repair person. Gruen has been out of business since 1976 and the "real" Gruen company died in 1958.
You really have to get into the 1950s before vintage watches started to have the robustness of today's models.

[CottyGee]

Okay - I see what you mean. I was aware of the issue with water tightness and the non-shock resistence. But a guy could wear one into the office for computer work on a regular basis without a problem, it seems.

I don't think I'd like one that's as tired as the one I showed in Photo #2. But the watch in Photo #1 seems like it would be good to go after a good watch guy went through the movement...

Damn... I need about $20L to get going good on this new "hobby" (obsession?) of mine!!! LOL

[JohnF]

Ray -

Yep, that's what I meant. You say it so much better. :-)

My Shugart is from 2005 and I found it too: $200/$275/$400 for the gold filled. That's the price for a watch rated at 75%/87%/97%, i.e. average/good/excellent shape.

Get yourself a Shugart for ballpark prices, it's a decent resource, somewhat uneven for many watches, however. ISBN 1-57432-459-4 :-) Whenever I see a neat watch on eBay, the first thing I do is check Shugart...

JohnF

[JohnF]

Hi -

Just think of it this way: most modern watches are pretty well sealed up (there are exceptions) and you can go swimming with them, take a shower, go to the beach, rock climbing, whatever. You don't need to worry about the watch.

Watches like these are not cased, really, but more "packaged": the case merely exists to put the watch in it and offers, basically, NO protection against dust, water, heavy humidity, etc. There's not, usually, even a gasket or an O-ring to close the case beyond the metal-on-metal bond.

Which means that you're basically walking around with the watchworks naked on your wrist. Live in New York or Washington, DC? Don't wear it in the summer with 100° temperatures and 99% humidity without planning on getting it serviced pretty often.

But as a dress watch for elegant occasions? Hard to beat, and there aren't gonna be too many folks who will be wearing such a beautiful antique Gruen Curvex...

:-)

JohnF

[JohnF]

Hi -

Just found the watch #2 on eBay and there's something special about that one: it's a Driver's watch.

Gruen had one major specialty: they built curved watches. The watchwork itself is curved, built on several layers.

The Driver Curvex was even more curved and was designed to be worn on the SIDE of the wrist, so that when you drive, you can see the time without having to turn your wrist.

That makes the watch, of course, enormously more collectible than the "normal" curvex: they were only made over 3-5 years (in an act of horological desecration, the Gruen company records were destroyed in the 1960s by new management, who are now currently in horological hell for having done so): it might even make up for the relatively poor face on the dial.

I've seen really excellent condition Curvex Drivers go for as much as $5000 in auction, but that was for NOS (New Old Stock, i.e. a watch that never left the box and is therefore considered to be absolutely pristine) gold case. If you find one in really great shape, it could be considered a decent investment, given the fact that the number made were in the low 5-digit numbers and most no longer exist.

JohnF

[Ray MacDonald]

Damn... I need about $20L to get going good on this new "hobby" (obsession?) of mine!!! LOL
Well, I'm retired and I know JohnF has teenagers to put through college so we won't be spending that sort of cash any time soon. :-)
However we both collect and enjoy vintage watches. They are really quite affordable if you don't choose the most expensive models to collect when you begin.
This 1949 rose gold Bulova cost me $56 on eBay and I spent another $70 or so getting it cleaned and a new crystal. It's truly a gorgeous watch.

[CottyGee]

Just found the watch #2 on eBay and there's something special about that one: it's a Driver's watch.
Yeah, I noticed that. But I also noticed the seller is very specific in not showing the movement, saying what the movement is, or even that the watch is running!

Maybe some guys get excited about a genuine Gruen Ristside running or not, but to me the whole point of these toys is to be able to use 'em! Kinda like cars. I have very little interest in restoring a vintage vehicle unless it's gonna be a driver.

Prolly you guys have all already seen this, but I read with interest this series on the original Gruen company... (http://www.pixelp.com/gruen/introduction.html)

[JohnF]

Hi -

Yep, not showing the caliber is problematic, and he doesn't say "sorry, don't know how to open this".

I think you understand that it's a tad dangerous buying something like that online, with most eBay sellers disavowing any sort of warranty or even a guarantee that what you see is what you get. For lots of things, eBay is great: but for watches over whatever your personal pain threshold is?

No longer. Of course, that does make it more difficult to find the watch you want.

What I've started doing is whenever I see a watchmaker or watch shop that handles vintage watches, I pop in and let them know what I'm looking for, talking a bit with them. I leave a business card and write on the back what I am looking for (Gruen PanAM Jumpdate). Haven't heard from anyone yet, but I'm still hoping...

And yes, the link is well known. It's what got me into Gruens in the first place. :-)

JohnF