Hello Breitling Experts, Can you help with Info on this Astromat K18405 / 1461 >>>

[Michael adam-co]

Hello,

Took this watch out of the safe today after 10 years!
I will appreciate All Information about this watch Including how much it
is worth...
Some info to Value it : Box and Papers lost long time ago, Only the 18K Watch + the original 18K Deployant Clasp and Alligator strap.
Top Mint Condition.

I know much about Panerai but nothing about Breitling that's why I'm asking for Info...
If this is Not appropriate or against this forum rules I apologies and Mods please delete.

Thanks!
Michael


http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/ad/adamco/233_3369.JPG (http://www.vendio.com/my/ihost/standard.html#)



http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/ad/adamco/233_3372.JPG (http://www.vendio.com/my/ihost/standard.html#)



http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/ad/adamco/233_3363.JPG


http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/ad/adamco/233_3361.JPG (http://www.vendio.com/my/ihost/standard.html#)


http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/ad/adamco/233_3371.JPG (http://www.vendio.com/my/ihost/standard.html#)

[O2AFAC67]

Took this watch out of the safe today after 10 years! I will appreciate All Information about this watch Including how much it is worth... Some info to Value it : Box and Papers lost long time ago, Only the 18K Watch + the original 18K Deployant Clasp and Alligator strap. Top Mint Condition...retail price list for $27,400 USD on 18K Pilot bracelet. The bracelet listed for over $8K, looks like about $8600 when you extrapolate numbers from the list which only shows the 18K rouleaux at $8K in the accessories section. Makes the watch head about $19K to which you add another $1400 for the deployant clasp, totalling about 20 and a half K-bucks in 1991 dollars. Pre-owned Breitlings are often analagous to classic or popular cars like Corvettes when it comes to resale. They depreciate rapidly, level off after a few years and then begin to rise in value slowly. Standard pieces such as Navitimers or Chronomats typically sell for about half of their original sold retail value when new, variances based upon condition and provenance. An example might be a 2004 model two tone Crosswind on bracelet having a new list price of $5000 and selling today for around $2500 in excellent condition. A 1997 Stainless Steel Old Navitimer on strap sold for $2975 then and would sell for around $1800 to $2100 today because of its "character". Quite rare and unusual pieces such as your 18K "Quantum Perpetual" are a different story. An Astromat with the "1461" complication can run for a full four year cycle without resetting any of the other complications whereas a "QP" can run a century or more. What's the point? A mechanical watch will need service within a reasonable period of time and reasonable is not a century, sometimes it's less than four years. Bottom line is, the potential market for that piece is quite small among watch enthusiasts, limited to the very few who may be willing to spend substantially more for the "panache" of the rare QP complication housed in 18K gold. What does a gold QP owner get out of the ownership? Will the watch be worn or put in a safe to spend another ten years? Seems to me a certain level of eccentricity would have to go along with the amount of cash necessary to buy that watch. I'm not sure I would even if I had plenty of cash to spare. In addition, you or any potential buyer is looking at a hefty sum for a full service on the watch before the risk is taken to put it into service simply BECAUSE it has been stored and inactive for so long. If you're familiar with Panny's or any mechanical you know this already. All this makes me wonder why and how you have a piece like that ESPECIALLY without papers... Doesn't make a lot of sense to me unless there were some unusual circumstances involved in your acquisition of the piece. All of the latter ramblings are of course only my humble opinion. I hope the information I've provided is of some assistance to you.
Cheers,
Ron

[Michael adam-co]

Thanks Ron!

13 years ago I did not kept any boxes for any of my watches...

The aprox price you are talking about is for the The Astromat Chrono QP model K18405 ?
Is mine also QP ?

What do you think my watch worth today ?

Thanks allot!
Michael

[Broker]

Thanks Ron!

13 years ago I did not kept any boxes for any of my watches...

The aprox price you are talking about is for the The Astromat Chrono QP model K18405 ?
Is mine also QP ?

What do you think my watch worth today ?

Thanks allot!
Michael

It is a QP. IF you read the back the letters QP are on top. This is quite a nice watch. It would be wonderful if you had the box and papers but isn't a deal breaker with this watch. Do you have the stylus for it also?

Todd

[EJC]

It is a QP. IF you read the back the letters QP are on top. This is quite a nice watch. It would be wonderful if you had the box and papers but isn't a deal breaker with this watch. Do you have the stylus for it also?

Todd

Lovely piece. Your problem is as Ron stated high price and very limited market. I'd love a QP but I'll stick with my regular Astro 1461 for the price difference.

On the positive side, the movement is still used today so parts are available for servicing. After 13yrs in a safe, I agree with Ron servicing is a smart idea. My guess is you'll be lookingat a ~$750 for a full service.

Another good idea is a winder. After all what good is a perpetual calendar if you don't keep it wound. And you probably won't want to wear it full time.

AND, call your insurance carrier for a rider unless it is going back in the safe.

[Michael adam-co]

Hi Tod,

I know that the reference number is QP, but the dial seems to be missing the leap year indicator, looks like the regular 1461 dial. It's a bit confusing...

What do you think ?

Thank you,
Michael

[fenderusastrat]

Wow. I have to say your watch is incredible!! I have an Astromat 1461 in Two Tone 18K/SS but this on here in all solid gold is incredible!! Interesting observation about the dial and being that of the NON perpetual Astromat, without the leap year hand. I also thought the QPs had the leap year hand in the register at the 9 position??

Anyhow, regardless, your watch is beautiful!! Enjoy it!

[letsjet]

This is strange to me.........

Looks exactly like my old Astromat 1461, yet the back states it's a QP. It's almost like someone put a QP back on a 1461 to scam someone. Is there an 18k mark on the case?

I'm looking for an 18k QP but wouldn't touch this as it doesn't look like any I've ever seen in pictures. Further, I'm looking for YG or RG...

[Broker]

Hi Tod,

I know that the reference number is QP, but the dial seems to be missing the leap year indicator, looks like the regular 1461 dial. It's a bit confusing...

What do you think ?

Thank you,
Michael

After looking at it again, it appears as though the 9 o'clock totalizer seems wrong. It should have 1,2,3 and L year but it doesn't. This is quite puzzling to me. If you had the paperwork for the watch there wouldn't be any question.

Todd

[O2AFAC67]

This is strange to me.........

Looks exactly like my old Astromat 1461, yet the back states it's a QP. It's almost like someone put a QP back on a 1461 to scam someone. Is there an 18k mark on the case?

I'm looking for an 18k QP but wouldn't touch this as it doesn't look like any I've ever seen in pictures. Further, I'm looking for YG or RG...:oops: My bad. I didn't take time to even look at the dial after seeing the QP and correct model number for it on the back. The QP is indeed caliber 18 as shown the model number in contrast to the 1461 which is caliber 19 (same as the discontinued Oly). letsjet is right, very strange. Made even more strange by the lack of papers and provenance. I was going to venture an opinion as to current fair value of the piece but the value I had in mind took a huge plummet when I realized the discrepancies. Michael, I don't want to cast any aspersions here but can you give us what information you have regarding the provenance of the watch beside the fact it's yours and you didn't keep boxes for any of your watches 13 years ago? Point is, whether a 1461 or a QP, an 18K watch typically is sold new with special packaging and paperwork, and it makes no sense at all for any owner of such a piece to NOT keep said materials, especially when the piece is important enough to place in a safe for an extended period of time. Forgive the question but, are you trolling us? Apologies in advance if you are the victim of a scam of some kind as letsjet suggests. BTW, letsjet, the Astomat QP was only built in yellow or white gold on the same material Pilot bracelet. In 1991 the price for the yellow gold K18405 on bracelet was $27,400 and surprisingly, its counterpart in white gold J18405 was $4,000 more!! Sorry the discussion piece wasn't the one your were going after. Tough to find the real McCoy for sure. Good luck with the search. :think: :-)
Cheers,
Ron

[Michael adam-co]

Hi Ron,


Why be so surprised and suspicious ?

This watch was bought by me 13 years ago straight from the store and in these days
I didn't even bother to take the box and papers from the store when I bought watches,
Among my Collection I have 6 more expensive watches with no Box and Papers.
It all changed when I start collecting Panerais and learn to know the Important of the Box
and papers when reselling.


Thanks,
Michael

[EJC]

Hi Ron,


Why be so surprised and suspicious ?

This watch was bought by me 13 years ago straight from the store and in these days
I didn't even bother to take the box and papers from the store when I bought watches,
Among my Collection I have 6 more expensive watches with no Box and Papers.
It all changed when I start collecting Panerais and learn to know the Important of the Box
and papers when reselling.


Thanks,
Michael

Your dealer should have informed you better.

[letsjet]

Michael,

I don't care about a box or papers, they can be purchased for almost nothing. What I do care about is the watch doesn't look correct. So, we are wondering if it is what you say it is. The box and papers might provide clues. But since you didn't take the box and papers with you when you bought the watch and then you lost them some time ago I'm going to assist you with your question.

As a purchaser of several limited edition Breitlings, I think your watch is very suspect. As such, I would put the value at about $2k, slightly less than a SS Astromat, which is what it appears to be w/o box and papers. (Thoses things add a little value to people that buy collector watches)

Good luck,

But one other thing I find interesting is that you have a reference to breitling-classic-center. Can you explain your reference?

[O2AFAC67]

Hi Ron,


Why be so surprised and suspicious ?

This watch was bought by me 13 years ago straight from the store and in these days
I didn't even bother to take the box and papers from the store when I bought watches,
Among my Collection I have 6 more expensive watches with no Box and Papers.
It all changed when I start collecting Panerais and learn to know the Important of the Box
and papers when reselling.


Thanks,
MichaelSorry I came across that way but after reading this.... http://cgi.ebay.com/BREITLING-18K-Gold-Astromat-Chrono-QP-model-K18405_W0QQitemZ190137851265QQihZ009QQcategoryZ313 87QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem the alarms went off. You even stated on TZ in response to a forum member... "I really don't know what your problem is.
"free help" ? Do you want to be paid for answering questions on the forum ?

I kindly asked for all Information about this watch.
I did not hide any thing, I didn't know I need to specify why I need info or giving you
my life resume.

And yes, This watch was bought by me 13 years ago straight from the store and in these days
I didn't even bother to take the box and papers from the store when I bought watches. "

Didn't "hide anything"? Just omitted having the piece on auction by a "well known collector all over the world" who happens to be a "power seller" of fine timepieces. And 13 years ago you bought a very rare 18K gold watch from a "store" not "bothering" to take the box or papers which were of course extremely relevant to the piece but not enough for you to "bother". I asked you about provenance and you say "store"? Did the "store" remove the 1461 caseback and install a QP caseback and forget to give you the paperwork on the upgrade? As on the other forum, I apologize to our members here for my naivete'. I sometimes get so wrapped up in research trying to help members I can't see the forest for the trees. Next time you need information for one of your power sales, be forthright and honest. Don't play innocent with us. The act doesn't wash. :-| :rodekaart
Ron

[letsjet]

Ron,

This is no reflection on you and doesn't require any drama.

BTW-

I look forward to Michael becoming a big contributor to the forum.

[Michael adam-co]

Ron,

Sorry If I did wrong, It is my watch and I don't know much on it
and honestly wanted Information about it.

I did ask for info so I will know better what I am selling. When I bought it, it was just a nice watch for me and I did not
get into the watch details, After 10 years in the safe I wanted to sell it and realize it is a Rare watch and wanted to know more about it...

Now to post a Picture and ask for Information is Ok, But to say
I want to sell it is Shilling and I didn't want to do this.

Again I thought I did good buy not saying I want to sell it and
Shilling the watch, I apologies if I did wrong.

Thank you,
Michael

[Michael adam-co]

vbmenu_register("postmenu_453302", true); Hi letsjet,

Thanks for your advice.

Concerning breitling-classic-center :
I offered him the watch and took Pictures with his name and Today date.

Thank you,
Michael

[letsjet]

That is not my understanding of what shilling is.

As long as you don't misrepresent or have someone bid up your auction, you don't have to worry about shilling.

Truthfully you should look for a mark on the case to show that it is 18k. The watch would need to be opened to see what movement is in it.

[O2AFAC67]

Ron,

Sorry If I did wrong, It is my watch and I don't know much on it
and honestly wanted Information about it.

I did ask for info so I will know better what I am selling. When I bought it, it was just a nice watch for me and I did not
get into the watch details, After 10 years in the safe I wanted to sell it and realize it is a Rare watch and wanted to know more about it...

Now to post a Picture and ask for Information is Ok, But to say
I want to sell it is Shilling and I didn't want to do this.

Again I thought I did good buy not saying I want to sell it and
Shilling the watch, I apologies if I did wrong.

Thank you,
MichaelFirst, I too look forward to your membership and participation in our forum. I have no doubt you are able to provide posts of substance and interest to us all. Thank you for your courteous and considerate apology. I also apologize for being overly reactive with unrequired "drama" as letsjet unneccesarily admonished. The different route I alluded to would have been to describe the situation and reasons for your request and then ask for PM's in response. Many of us would be happy to help facilitate a sale for you in that manner I believe. Thank you again for staying with us and good luck with your sale. I hope we were of worthwhile assistance. :-)
Best Regards,
Ron

[Michael adam-co]

letsjet,
You can see in Picture #4 the Gold marks on the 2 sides of the Crown.

[Michael adam-co]

Thank you Ron, That is very honorable of you.

Honestly I don't know how much I can contribute to a Breitling forum as I came
to asked about a Piece I own and know nothing about... Also, Panerai is 100% all
I'm interested in for the last 11 years.

If any one can put more light on my Astromat, how come it is QP K18405
and doesn't have the L-Year I appreciate it allot.

Thank you all,
Michael

[O2AFAC67]

If any one can put more light on my Astromat, how come it is QP K18405
and doesn't have the L-Year I appreciate it allot.
the watch is a caliber 19 Astromat 1461 with the wrong caseback installed. How and why it became like that, only the person who installed the caseback could say... :-s
Cheers,
Ron

[karmatooburn]

the watch appears fake or the very least not right. so how can you guys ask him to be apart of the forum and such? isn't this the same crowd that slams fakes on ebay weekly and talks about it being such a crime and all. plain silly if you ask me. but just for the record, you lost the papers to a 20,000 plus dollar watch. ok maybe, and then someone at breitling put the wrong case back on it? or the wrong hands or wrong movement, etc etc? really??? well let me be the first to call bulls it on this watch.

[letsjet]

I can, now that you ask. That's where I think they should be.

Your watch is a puzzle....... I would contact Breitling directly. They have a very supportive staff that can assist. I would appreciate you coming back into the forum to explain what you've learned. It is not like any QP I have seen and my only guess is that it is an incorrect case back.

Do you recall the store that you purchased it?

letsjet,
You can see in Picture #4 the Gold marks on the 2 sides of the Crown.

[EJC]

the watch appears fake or the very least not right. so how can you guys ask him to be apart of the forum and such? isn't this the same crowd that slams fakes on ebay weekly and talks about it being such a crime and all. plain silly if you ask me. but just for the record, you lost the papers to a 20,000 plus dollar watch. ok maybe, and then someone at breitling put the wrong case back on it? or the wrong hands or wrong movement, etc etc? really??? well let me be the first to call bulls it on this watch.

Have to agree with you. The whole story is very weird and doesn't make much sense.

At no point does he say he bought it new or from an AD.

"When I bought it, it was just a nice watch for me and I did not
get into the watch details."

He also doesn't say what he paid for it. I would think someone paying $27K for a watch would want to know what was so special about it.

Then you have the question of someone starting an auction for a $27K watch at $4 with no reserve!

[letsjet]

I have studied this carefully and I have come to this conclusion.

It is an 18k (I think white gold not Yellow gold) Breitling Astromat 1461 with an Astromat QP back.

There is a ref. in the Breitling book and a picture that shows this should have the leap year dial. Interesting about the english dial also.

[Michael adam-co]

Hi,

To solve this puzzle : Looks like a very Rare incident by Bretling Factory:
The watch came like that from Breitling, It is an 18k Yellow Gold 1461 with QP case back.
The watch was bought by me 13 years ago straight from a Famous Breitling AD.

The watch was in the safe for 10 years there for it was never serviced, No one ever
touched it and the back was never opened.

Thank you all,
Michael

[letsjet]

That is very interesting thanks for the info...

It doesn't look like yellow gold. Do you have a picture that shows yellow? Further the case back model number is not for yellow gold.

Are you going to pull your Ebay auction? I think you should as it's not a QP.

[Michael adam-co]

It is Yellow gold, The case back model number is for yellow gold.

Yes of course I will End the Auction tomorrow and relist it with the new Info and correct details.

Thanks,
Michael

[letsjet]

Michael,

I'm glad to hear you will relist your auction tomorrow with the correct info.

Though, my ref. has the K18405 as an 18 gold case and the
J18405 as yellow gold case.

Further I don't see YG in your picts. Could you take a better picture if it is infact YG?

Thanks

[letsjet]

Michael,

Are you going to varify this?

[miroad]

This guy now has this Astromat listed on
Ebay for $12k or best offer. I have to say that I'm very suspicious of this watch. The most unimaginable detail is the lack of boxes, papers, stylus, receipt, etc. He must have paid at least $20k for the watch but walked out of the dealer (where?) without any supporting documentation, even a box? The really strains credibility. Additionally, the inconsistency of the case back being for a perpetual calendar watch not matching the dial? He also has a lot of pics in the listing (Ebay item 190139965659) but none of the movement. He doesn't accept Paypal so no buyer protection. Any more ideas, guys?

[O2AFAC67]

This guy now has this Astromat listed on
Ebay for $12k or best offer. I have to say that I'm very suspicious of this watch. The most unimaginable detail is the lack of boxes, papers, stylus, receipt, etc. He must have paid at least $20k for the watch but walked out of the dealer (where?) without any supporting documentation, even a box? The really strains credibility. Additionally, the inconsistency of the case back being for a perpetual calendar watch not matching the dial? He also has a lot of pics in the listing (Ebay item 190139965659) but none of the movement. He doesn't accept Paypal so no buyer protection. Any more ideas, guys?Well, at least on the auction he repeats pretty much what has been said here. ( http://cgi.ebay.com/BREITLING-18K-Gold-Astromat-1461-Complication_W0QQitemZ190139965659QQihZ009QQcatego ryZ31387QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ) Sure would be interesting to have Breitling open it up and verify the caliber 19 1461 inside of the piece. Wonder what happened to the actual No. 10 caliber 18 QP... :-s :-( o| :rodekaart I think this would be an absolutely perfect acquisition for the Breitling Museum Online character. He should buy it and soon we would see it up for resale at approx. 80K USD. Hahahahahaha!! :-d
Cheers,
Ron

[Broker]

Well, at least on the auction he repeats pretty much what has been said here. ( http://cgi.ebay.com/BREITLING-18K-Gold-Astromat-1461-Complication_W0QQitemZ190139965659QQihZ009QQcatego ryZ31387QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ) Sure would be interesting to have Breitling open it up and verify the caliber 19 1461 inside of the piece. Wonder what happened to the actual No. 10 caliber 18 QP... :-s :-( o| :rodekaart I think this would be an absolutely perfect acquisition for the Breitling Museum Online character. He should buy it and soon we would see it up for resale at approx. 80K USD. Hahahahahaha!! :-d
Cheers,
Ron

Don't laugh. The guy is bidding on one of my watches. :rodekaart

Todd

[letsjet]

I don't think it will sell for anywhere near that price. I real QP sold for around that a few days ago.

The watch is strange but look at Michaels feedback rating. That should tell you something about him trying not to mislead.

I'm in the market for a QP........

[fenderusastrat]

Obviously this guy is not a dishonest guy given his Ebay feedback. He might have a watch that is a puzzle or a mystery to us, but that does not mean he is dishonest.

Letsjet, Where did you see a QP sell for around the same price as he is asking?? If you can find me one for 12K I would buy it too.

[bradders]

Don't laugh. The guy is bidding on one of my watches. :rodekaart

Todd


he he he:-!

[Michael adam-co]

Hello again every one,

I will open the back of the watch in a few days and will post pictures
to Confirm what movement are inside.

About : "The most unimaginable detail is the lack of boxes, papers, stylus, receipt, etc..."
I already said that in these days even when I bought a $50,000+ watch I did not
care about the box and papers, cary them, Keep them, stock them or what ever...
I just did Not care about Box and papers or Reselling the watches I bought

I am a well know Panerai Collector all over the world for the last 10 years and have
good friends almost in every city in the World, Tons and Tond of Solid references.

Thanks,
Michael

[Michael adam-co]

Also, Maybe fenderusastrat (http://forums.watchuseek.com/member.php?u=10228) and I will meet around the 25 so
he can tell you all about me and My Breitling Asromat...

Best,
Michael

[fenderusastrat]

Hey guys, I see that Michael told you guys we might meet up to take a look at his watch. Yes, it is true. In a major coincidence it turns out I am going on a trip out to the land where Michael resides and I may just go meet him to take a look at the watch, hopefully unlocking the mystery of what it is and how it got that way.

I will keep everyone posted...

[letsjet]

Great, you can also verify YG .... as I don't think the ref no. reflects YG.

( Nor the pictures ;-) )