A military Cortebert?

[soviet]

Hello guys,

For some reason , I like military watches such as those Russian divers, and early Pobedas, so I bought this one. It looks very much like an early Pobeda, and the price is also about the same. I think the movement could be more reliable. I also like the classic slim hands.|>

So is this a militray trench watch? Is Cortebert a good brand?:-s

Cheers,

Zhang

[Ray MacDonald]

According to the Ranfft archive, Cortebert calibre 677S was used in watches around 1950 so unless the trench was in Korea, I don't think it's a trench watch as commonly understood.
Here is a webpage on Cortebert. Perhaps one of our Euro-experts would like to comment further about Cortebert's quality and whether it might be a military model.
http://www.perseo-watches.com/english/cortebert_history.htm

[soviet]

Thanks for link. It looks like a well known brand. It was listed on my old Chinese list together with Zenith, Gruen, Wittnauer.. as 2nd category, 2nd class watches.:-)

[JohnF]

Hi -

The link is pretty good: it does give you the position of the company as your Chinese list points to.

I wouldn't call it a military watch, though: it is a fine example of a watch probably in the upper quantile of their product line. There are no fixed bars for the strap and there is no lume whatsoever, both of which were more usually the case with a military watch.

I place it towards the upper end of their product line for two reasons: the face and the hands. The face is a lovely example of some of the art-deco/military inspired watch faces of the era, with the master for the face having been done by a professional draftsman by hand (you'd be surprised how much was done by hand in the past...), as can be seen by the very small imprecisions in line width and the like as you would see from a typical blueprint from that era. The face is marvelously aged, with a lovely patina, despite the bad crystal and battered case.

The hands are also exquisite and perfectly balanced for the face and case: are they blued, or are they flat black with a light satin finishing?

The movement is 16 jewels, based on a 15-jewel movement with the extra jewel as bearing for the central seconds hand.

Interestingly there's no incabloc shock protection, which points more towards the middle/late 1940s rather than solidly in the 1950s; the model shown at Ranfft shows with incabloc.

Cortebert did some rather fine pocket-watch movements, such as the 516 and similar calibers, with some lovely damascening to the movement, but later went the matte gold finish that dominates European pocket-watch finishing, which I find a tad boring, especially in comparison to what the US was producing in its higher-end models.

JohnF

PS: Cortebert are very good quality, but replacement parts are not trivial...but any good qualified competent watchmaker should enjoy working on them, as their quality was above average, and that always makes a watchmaker happy... :-)

[soviet]

Hi JohnF,

Many thanks for the detailed explanation. I think I have learned quite a bit about this company. You asked about the hands. They are blue steel hands, and the second hand looks like red when new, but the paint is rusted off.

I usually service old watches myself, but if this is a valuable watch, I may send it to a professional watch maker. It has been running since I bought it, so I think the movement is well made and tough. It should be a very beautiful watch when new. I like its elegant style. It is similar to a vintage Pobeda, but even more elegant.|>

Cheers,

Zhang

[JohnF]

Hi -

Blued hands are always good, the second hand can be repainted to recreate the red, should be very nice when cleaned up. As you say, very elegant style...

Nice watch. :-)

JohnF

[Hartmut Richter]

One of the old Cortebert PW calibres - I think it is one of the 590 series or the 620 series - was the basis of the russian Molnija 3602/3603 calibre. The one you have (Calibre 677S - the S stands for centre second hand) is also similar but it is the savonnette version - the Molnija is a lepine movement. No wonder it resembles your Pobeda.....

Hartmut Richter

[soviet]

One of the old Cortebert PW calibres - I think it is one of the 590 series or the 620 series - was the basis of the russian Molnija 3602/3603 calibre. The one you have (Calibre 677S - the S stands for centre second hand) is also similar but it is the savonnette version - the Molnija is a lepine movement. No wonder it resembles your Pobeda.....

Hartmut Richter

Thanks. I have limited knowledge about Swiss made movements. I did not find the words savonnette or lepine so that I have no idea what they mean. But it just occurred to me that some old Rolex movements look very similar to this one. Did Cortebert supply movements to Rolex in the past?

[Hartmut Richter]

"Lepine" and "savonnette" refer to pocket watches and their movements. A standard PW will have the small second hand at 6:00. The "Lepine" movement is that named after a M. Lepine and is for open face PWs with the crown at 12:00. The savonnette (lit. "small snuff box") which the English call a "hunter" (or with a hole in the lid, the "half hunter"), PW has a lid which is usually opened by pressing a button in the crown. You therefore hold it with the crown at 3:00. In order to have the small second hand at 6:00, the lepine movement has it opposite the crown (if you make a wrist watch out of it, the small second goes to 9:00 - compare the Zenith "Elite") and the savonnette at right angles to it. Compare the almost identical Unitas 6497 and the 6498.

Never heard of Cortebert supplying movements to Rolex - Rolex got their simple movements off Aegler (who also supplied Gruen in the inter-war period) before they bought and amalgamated that company in the Wilsdorf Trust.

Hartmut Richter

[soviet]

"Lepine" and "savonnette" refer to pocket watches and their movements. A standard PW will have the small second hand at 6:00. The "Lepine" movement is that named after a M. Lepine and is for open face PWs with the crown at 12:00. The savonnette (lit. "small snuff box") which the English call a "hunter" (or with a hole in the lid, the "half hunter"), PW has a lid which is usually opened by pressing a button in the crown. You therefore hold it with the crown at 3:00. In order to have the small second hand at 6:00, the lepine movement has it opposite the crown (if you make a wrist watch out of it, the small second goes to 9:00 - compare the Zenith "Elite") and the savonnette at right angles to it. Compare the almost identical Unitas 6497 and the 6498.

Never heard of Cortebert supplying movements to Rolex - Rolex got their simple movements off Aegler (who also supplied Gruen in the inter-war period) before they bought and amalgamated that company in the Wilsdorf Trust.

Hartmut Richter

Many thanks!:-!|> I also have a Gruen with a 6-6012 movement. I wonder who supplied movements to Rolex? Marvin, Zenith?:-s

[JohnF]

Hi -

Aegler.

The history of this is rather complex, but here goes (transliterated from Ranfft):

In 1993, the Union Horlogère (UH) and the Vereinigte Uhrmacher Alpina (VUA) were established by Gottlieb Hauser as a coalition of leading manufacturers and trades in watches in order to unify and simplify purchasing and selling of watch parts. This led to the establishment of their own calibres, which were manufactured in the Alpina-Rohwerke-Fabrik (Alpine ebauche factory) by Duret & Colonnaz in Geneva.

In 1905, Gruen and Hamilton joined the UH. In 1909, Alpine Union Horlogère set up the Glashütte company Präcisions-Uhrenfabrik Alpina.

During WW1, it became politically necessary to split off the Union Horlogère SA in Biel, Switzerland and the ADUG (Alpina Deutsche Uhrmacher-Genossenschaft GmbH) in Berlin.

Between 1929 and 1937, Alpina Gruen Gilde SA was created to coordinate manufacturing and sales. This was also the consolidation of Gruen's manufacturing facilities in Switzerland with that of Alpina. The resulting calibres are perhaps the finest example of Swiss watch-making bar none, accounting of course for the technology of the time period.

This is where Aegler came from, makers of the famous "Doctors Watch" calibre, perhaps best known in the Rolex Prince (the vintage, not the new one). The success and quality of Aegler led Rolex to buy them to ensure that this level of quality would be available only to Rolex; in some ways, the Gruen concentration on their patented and hence proprietary Curvex technology (curved watch calibres to better fit the wrist) led ultimately to the downfall of that company, as their later calibres, while very good, did not have quite the same quality as the Aegler calibres that led to the enormous success of Rolex.

Post-WW2 ADUG became DUGENA, which is still, more or less, in operation today.


JohnF

[soviet]

Hi JohnF,

Thanks for this interesting account of past Rolex and Gruen relations. Today A very old Rolex Prince cost much more than a similar Gruen with the same movement. Did Rolex modefy the movement to improve its quality? Or it is just the market force?

Regards

Zhang

[JohnF]

Hi -

It's market forces: Gruens are not, strictly speaking, collectible, because the idiots who bought the company in 1958 threw away all the records, which up to that point in time had been kept immaculately. Truly a horological crime! For that alone they will spend a long, long time in one of Dante's circles (in hell).

Add to that the mystique of vintage Rolex watches: Rolex releases no information about its older watches, there are no parts available, and the result is that vintage Rolex sell for high prices. There's no economic reason for them to do so, it's a by-product of the successful brand image.


JohnF

[soviet]

Hi -

It's market forces: Gruens are not, strictly speaking, collectible, because the idiots who bought the company in 1958 threw away all the records, which up to that point in time had been kept immaculately. Truly a horological crime! For that alone they will spend a long, long time in one of Dante's circles (in hell).

Add to that the mystique of vintage Rolex watches: Rolex releases no information about its older watches, there are no parts available, and the result is that vintage Rolex sell for high prices. There's no economic reason for them to do so, it's a by-product of the successful brand image.


JohnF

Hi,

I don't quite understand why people would spend so much for a worn, primitive, and sometimes ugly watch? They often cost much more than a nice painting by a good artist.o|Could it be possible that some big companies buy back those "junks" to create an image that their new product is a worthwhile investment? I don't mean necessarily any specific brand.
These are not like Russian and Chinese watches that are at the rock bottom prices for what they are.:-s What is your opinion on this?

Zhang

[JohnF]

Hi -

Well, there's always sentimental value... :-)

Seriously, these are *not* primitive watches: they are, from a watchmaker's perspective, amongst the finest ever made (I'm thinking of the early Aegler calibres specifically), made by people with outstanding skills that are very, very hard to even find today. Sure, they didn't have the advantages of computer-aided design and the like, but they were really good at making watches. :-)

Ugly, of course, is in the eye of the beholder: me, I'd rather have a 1937 Curvex than a brand-new Rolex anyday. :-)

There are a couple of companies who have the principle of buying up any of their watches that come on the open market: if I remember correctly, Patek is one of them. They do this to keep the supply severely down and hence the rarity up; this reduces pressure on margins and forces any buyer to buy a new one, which is where, of course, the money is.

And what holds its value is quality: that is why older Russian and Chinese watches, generally speaking, do not hold their value. While quite a number of the older Russian/early Soviet-era watches were quite good, they remained well below the best that Switzerland could produce, and while you can certainyl get them back up and running, the higher precision of Swiss watches - not the average Swiss, mind you, but the higher quality Swiss watches - pays off over time in better long-term accuracy and dependability.

JohnF

[psychlist]

Here are a couple of UK-issued WW2 military Corteberts I owned until recently - attractive movements -

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/psychlist/cortebertpairshot.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/psychlist/cortebertmovts1-1.jpg

[soviet]

Hi -

Well, there's always sentimental value... :-)

Seriously, these are *not* primitive watches: they are, from a watchmaker's perspective, amongst the finest ever made (I'm thinking of the early Aegler calibres specifically), made by people with outstanding skills that are very, very hard to even find today. Sure, they didn't have the advantages of computer-aided design and the like, but they were really good at making watches. :-)

Ugly, of course, is in the eye of the beholder: me, I'd rather have a 1937 Curvex than a brand-new Rolex anyday. :-)

There are a couple of companies who have the principle of buying up any of their watches that come on the open market: if I remember correctly, Patek is one of them. They do this to keep the supply severely down and hence the rarity up; this reduces pressure on margins and forces any buyer to buy a new one, which is where, of course, the money is.

And what holds its value is quality: that is why older Russian and Chinese watches, generally speaking, do not hold their value. While quite a number of the older Russian/early Soviet-era watches were quite good, they remained well below the best that Switzerland could produce, and while you can certainyl get them back up and running, the higher precision of Swiss watches - not the average Swiss, mind you, but the higher quality Swiss watches - pays off over time in better long-term accuracy and dependability.

JohnF


Hi JohnF,

I "borrowed" some images from the 'bigbay' to show what I meant primitive movements and watches. One of them cost some 13 thousand US dollars! I have found junk movements similar to the "Roxxx" one in old Chinese Huacheng watches. I am sure there are high quality, precision Swiss watches that justify their high prices, but what about these?o| I don't mean to be provoking.:-d It is very hard for me to understand this if they are bought by true collectors. They must have a very,very big sentimental value to the one who paid the big sum.:think:

Kind regards

Zhang

[soviet]

Here are a couple of UK-issued WW2 military Corteberts I owned until recently - attractive movements -

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/psychlist/cortebertpairshot.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/psychlist/cortebertmovts1-1.jpg


Hi,

Thanks for these fine images.:-! I think I began to understand what qualifys a military watch. Special markings, lume hands are two major points. Am I right?

These are indeed very nice moevments.

[JohnF]

Hi -

It's a collector thing. I see what you mean: these are, after all, old watches.

Similar is not the same: I love and wear my Bill Yao Type I hommage watch, but would I like to have a pristine original? You bet I do, but I can't justify spending the money (and here I mod the vintages forum!), as it would cost several thousands of $. There are folks out there who, however, want exactly that: the original.

I'd love, for instance, to have a pre-professional Speedmaster. I even know where I can get one in excellent shape: the problem is that he wants $4500 for it (he's a master watchmaker specializing in Omegas, and he knows what the market value is...), and I can't justify that. But there will be a collector who does - the watch is completely original, with the original documentation and the original crystal, in excellent shape despite being close to 50 years old!.

It's all about what a collector is willing to pay for a piece of great rarity. If it is very rare, then people will pay that price to have it.

And the movements you show aren't primitive at all: the Rolex movement is highly finished and has a screw balance, while the Patek is work of art, despite the scratch on the movement from some idiot. They're not as flash as a modern movement, but they have a history that no modern movement can touch. That is what collectors pay for, plus rarity.

JohnF

[soviet]

Hello JohnF,

Thanks for the education. I need to learn more to appreciate the fine quality of these movements.:-) So there are people out there who are willing to pay to have these watches.o| I thought if someone put them on a site, and buy back themselves, they would only pay a small fee for the auction, and create an image for some brands.:roll: But as you said, it is a collector thing. anything could happen for something very rare and original.

[Roland Ranfft]

Hi there,

of course companies like e.g. Patek Philippe or Rolex are intrested in high
prices for their historical products, because it makes it easier to achieve a
high margin when selling their present products.

However, the collector with limited budget, but unlimited interest in high
grade craftsmanship has the chance to get equivalent items for small
fractions of the prices aked for fameous brands.

Here two examples:

1) A movement of a watch which can easily compete with old Breguet
watches, known as most expensive collectors watches:
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&a&2uswk&4001
Same finish quality, same design, same temperature compensation and
shock protection like a contemporary (1830) Breguet. And while most
Breguets came with a cylinder escapement, this one has a superior lever
escapement, found only in few Breguets. Last not least a repeater
movement from 1830 with 6.2mm height can be regarded as very thin,
if compared with the 7.9mm of a primitive Valjoux 7750.

2) Recently I bought a Gruen from ca. 1925 for some 44 Euro to get this
movement into the archive:
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&a&2uswk&Gruen_826
It needs some work, but this can be justified because it is an authentic
Aegler/Rolex movement. While Rolex prefered the hunter version of this
calibre, to keep the same parts on stock for the versions with sub second
and sweep second (calibres 700, 710). Gruen obviously made only a sweep
second model with this movement - mainly intended for doctors who
regarded a center second as more efficient for their application than a
magniufied sub second. So such a watch has the same quality like an
equivalent Rolex, but is definitely rarer.

Regards, Roland Ranfft

[Roland Ranfft]

Hi there,

of course companies like e.g. Patek Philippe or Rolex are intrested in high
prices for their historical products, because it makes it easier to achieve a
high margin when selling their present products.

However, the collector with limited budget, but unlimited interest in high
grade craftsmanship has the chance to get equivalent items for small
fractions of the prices aked for fameous brands.

Here two examples:

1) A movement of a watch which can easily compete with old Breguet
watches, known as most expensive collectors watches:
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&a&2uswk&4001
Same finish quality, same design, same temperature compensation and
shock protection like a contemporary (1830) Breguet. And while most
Breguets came with a cylinder escapement, this one has a superior lever
escapement, found only in few Breguets. Last not least a repeater
movement from 1830 with 6.2mm height can be regarded as very thin,
if compared with the 7.9mm of a primitive Valjoux 7750.

2) Recently I bought a Gruen from ca. 1925 for some 44 Euro to get this
movement into the archive:
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&a&2uswk&Gruen_826
It needs some work, but this can be justified because it is an authentic
Aegler/Rolex movement. While Rolex prefered the hunter version of this
calibre, to keep the same parts on stock for the versions with sub second
and sweep second (calibres 700, 710). Gruen obviously made only a sweep
second model with this movement - mainly intended for doctors who
regarded a center second as more efficient for their purpose than a
magnified sub second. So such a watch has the same quality like an
equivalent Rolex, but is definitely rarer - and much cheaper

Regards, Roland Ranfft

[soviet]

Hello Roland,

Many thanks for your most valuable input. I have been confused by this watch collecting thing.
But big money were paid for a rare stamp that is only a piece of paper, or a rare coin that is only a piece of metal, it would not be too difficult to understand the high price for vintage watches.:-) I think it is not related strictly to the intrinsic value or quality of the item, but history and cultural.

Sorry, for some reson, I can't open the links. But I'd very much like to see what these movements look like.

Kind regards

Zhang

[Chascomm]

of course companies like e.g. Patek Philippe or Rolex are intrested in high prices for their historical products, because it makes it easier to achieve a high margin when selling their present products.

However, the collector with limited budget, but unlimited interest in high
grade craftsmanship has the chance to get equivalent items for small
fractions of the prices aked for famous brands.The Huacheng watches from pre-revolution Shanghai are another example of rare but low-priced watches that offer the buget collector an opportunity to examine some prime examples of Swiss engineering. However as Zhang has shown over on the Chinese forum, Huachengs can be a bit of a lottery as there is no indication of what is inside until the back is opened.

[soviet]

The Huacheng watches from pre-revolution Shanghai are another example of rare but low-priced watches that offer the buget collector an opportunity to examine some prime examples of Swiss engineering. However as Zhang has shown over on the Chinese forum, Huachengs can be a bit of a lottery as there is no indication of what is inside until the back is opened.


Here are some examples of early Swiss movements that I found in Huacheng watches. Some has a brand name such as Election, Ovation, MST, etc. The rarest is a Marvin 535S.:-d Some look similar to the Rolex one.:-s