Need Help Identifying Swiss Pocket Watch

[craigkasmin]

Hi all,

This watch was handed down from my great-grandfather but we have no info on it and it appears that the manufacturer is not engraved anywhere on the movement or case. I would guestimate that the watch was manufactured between 1900 and 1930. I'll describe it is best as I can and have attached a couple of photos (sorry, they're the best I can get).

It's a Swiss, approximately 14 size (American gauge) movement in a smooth-surfaced 18k gold hunting case. The surface of the main bridge has a gravelly texture (see photo). The only markings on the movement are: (1) on the pillar plate are an apple pierced by an arrow (a la William Tell) and the number 51422, and (2) underneath several of the bridges is 9721.

The case is more interesting. The dust cover (see photo) from top to bottom has: 1) 5 medallions; 2) ANCRE; 3) a line bisected by a dot; 4) Spiral Breguet; 5) Balancier Compense; 6) 15 Rubis; and 7) QUALITE SUPERIEURE. The inside of the front cover is marked 18k, some kind of shield, then DEPOSE and a Swiss cross inside an oval, and C2 591; inside the back of the case is marked with the same shield as the front and 37591.

That's all I've got. Thanks in advance for your help!

[craigkasmin]

I should note that the movement is very similar in appearance to that shown in Zenon Turtle's July 13, 2007 post. The case is different, but both do show medallions well. Perhaps we can solve more than one mystery at the same time....

[Ray MacDonald]

I'm not sure I can tell you much more than you already know as unfortunately the photos are a bit blurry. But I think you are correct about the age of the watch. Maybe the European experts can weigh in here.
Is the dial porcelain(enamel) or is it a metal dial? If porcelain it's probably before 1920.

[Chascomm]

All those medallions on the dust-cover remind me of several pre-Revolution watches that have been posted on the Russian forum. These were good-quality Swiss watches made for Russian market; Pavel Bure, H.Moser, W.Gabus, etc. So I'm thinking ~1900-1910 for this watch. I don't recall having seen medallions on later watches, but the experts will set me straight.

Noting the specifications listed, it would appear that the movement was of a quality to match that of the case.

[craigkasmin]

The dial appears to be painted or possibly some kind of paper stock on metal, definitely not enamel. I'm trying to get better pictures. Thanks.

[craigkasmin]

That's an interesting theory -- my great-grandfather emigrated from Poland, but I don't know if he obtained the watch prior to his emigration. Perhaps you're heading in the right direction. Thanks.

[Hartmut Richter]

Not really - the bridge layout is different! On yours, the centre wheel is held by the mainspring bridge whereas on Zenon's watch, it is held by the geartrain bridge.

If you want to try finding the movement on Ranfft's pink pages (and it may not be there anyway, even thought the database is fairly extensive!), the best way would be to do it by movement diameter. Measure the movement in mm, divide by 2.26 (to convert it to french lignes) and then do a search at that movement diameter. E.g. a 36mm movement is a touch under 16''' so you search for that keyword to come up with PW calibres of that size. Works for wrist watch movements too, of course - although the return there is too extensive to scrape through by hand without further keywords!!

Hartmut Richter

[craigkasmin]

Yes, I see the difference between my and Zenon's movements, but I thought that the similarity in the surface texture and something as obscure as the free-standing screw (I'm not sure what it's for) at the 4:00 position could be telling, or is this common with Swiss watches? Zenon sent his watch to a watchmaker for servicing and will get some feedback on it. I will also try your suggestion. Thanks!

[craigkasmin]

A search of Ranfft did the trick, albeit in a roundabout way. Starting with a search of the Russian site, a search on Ancre brought up the manufacturer Zenith. I looked through the Zenith forum's postings found another watch shown that has a case with a dust cover with medallions, Ancre, 15 Rubis, Balancier Compense and Spiral Breguet. I'll forward my info to Zenith and see if they have a record of it. Thanks!

[Hartmut Richter]

My reply is on the Zenith forum, where you also posted looking for info.

Hartmut Richter

[craigkasmin]

Here are some better photos -- I just don't have the equipment to take good closeups. The medallions, from left to right, are 1) a woman looking to the left; 2) a globe with a sash from bottom left to top right; 3) a woman looking to the right; 4) a woman looking forward; 5) a Swiss cross encircled by what might be some kind of wreath.

[craigkasmin]

Hi, the movement is 42mm, approx 18" or 19". Unfortunately, very few results on Ranfft. I'll try working up something on the medallions.

[craigkasmin]

More clues? Working with a 5x loop, I was able to find some additional markings on the case. 1) the lug (ie where bow is attached) has an R stamped on it on one side, 2) below the 18k mark on the inside of the front cover is an image of a romanesque woman looking to the left. I'm hoping that will spark someone's memory. Thanks!