Blancpain/Rayville movement ID

[Hewybaby]

I acquired a watch in worse condition than I expected. It is in running condition but I'm not even sure what I have. I have been unable to identify this movement. I suspect a Frankenwatch.

The bridge and the rest of the movement don't seem to belong together. "GXM" which appears on the bridge is a mark for "Gothic", a brand with which I am unfamilar. I am relatively sure this was not a Blancpain related brand.

It is not shock protected, which is inappropriate for the supposed era of this watch and a brand like Blancpain.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k268/hewybaby/1950s%20Blancpain%20manual/DSC_0063.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k268/hewybaby/1950s%20Blancpain%20manual/DSC_0067.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k268/hewybaby/1950s%20Blancpain%20manual/DSC_0066.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k268/hewybaby/1950s%20Blancpain%20manual/DSC_0062.jpg

Any help identifying -- and how badly was I taken!

[Ray MacDonald]

Again I'll let the Euro-experts deal with this but the balance cock certainly looks different from the rest of the movement. The Blancpain portion would likely be late 1940s and a US import by all indication.
I've seen Gothics before but Gothic as far as I can tell was a New York based firm like Bulova and the ones I've seen are older models than the 1940s.

[JohnF]

Hi -

Ouch.

It's an AS 1010 (or related work) and almost certainly not used by Blancpain. One give-away is the goldfilling on the letters: both "A"s and the "P" have the inner area also filled, pointing to a very sloppy gold-filling. Directly below that, the "Seventeen17" is also incorrect, it should be "Seventeen (17)". This may not even be accurate: the As 1010 was also made in a 15 jewel incarnation.

On the up side, the balance bridge is the correct one, albeit I would agree that it is either from another watch or this watch has seen really, really extensive work. Dates from the 1940s.

JohnF

[Hewybaby]

Thanks Ray & John F

My wife wanted this watch based on the size of the case and the lugs, which I purchased essentially sight unseen. (When a woman who has let you purchase as many watches as this one has wants something horological, you say yes.)

This particular seller I thought I could trust (a respected poster here and elsewhere); price was insignificant to me and I had no familarity with vintage Blancpain movements. Lesson learned . . . .

I know Blancpain was once a movement maker, selling under the name Rayville (which I understand is an anagram of Villeret). When I look in the Ranfft database, only a handful of movements are shown. Can you enlighten me as to what movements vintage Blancpain used and how those they manufactured were identified?

The F. Piguet Calibre 21 seems to be identified as a Rayville calibre, including when it was used by Omega as Omega Calibre 700. I vaguely remember a history of Blancpain which included some association with F. Piquet. It seems I recall that Omega (or the holding company that owned Omega) buying Blancpain in the 1960s for its movement capabilities. Can you help fill in the holes in my memory?

[Hewybaby]

Another vintage forum identified this movement as AS 970. I did not supply you with a key piece of information, which is the movement diameter, which I quickly measure as 19.38mm.

This size matches the AS 970 (19.5mm) and is too small for the AS 1010. The two movements are very similar, and were produced in the same era.


Tangental thought

Looking at the production dates of both of these movements (1920s-1960s), is there any industrial or consumer product design being produced today which began production in the 1960s or before (other than watch movements; I can think of three --two chronograph calibres, the Lemania 1873[Omega 1861] and 2310 [Omega 321], and JLC 101)?

It seems to me that "lifetime designs", those that will be produced for a working lifetime, are largely a thing of the past.

[Hartmut Richter]

Brunner/Pfeiffer-Belli in their trilingial book on wristwatches show a Blancpain "Fifty fathoms" from the fifties or sixties with an AS 1361N (plus another Blancpain with a Cezard 7400) so they did use "foreign" movements including AS at the time.....

Mind you, I have to agree that this one does look a little tampered with.....

Hartmut Richter

[Ray MacDonald]

Did a little Googling and as far as I can see there are 4 stages to Blancpain history:
(1) 1735-1933 The Blancpain family owned the brand and manufacture.
(2) 1933-1970 Successors to Blancpain (Rayville SA) ran the company.
(3) 1970-1971 Swatch acquires Blancpain then mothballs the brand in the quartz era.
(4) 1983 - Swatch revives Blancpain as a luxury mechanical brand.

Some of the 1920s-1930s models before the Rayville takeover just say Blancpain Fils as you'd expect.

The Rayville models clearly say so and in fact on the balance cock you also see KXO in the same gold leaf. They look a lot like your particular watch, except the balance cock is gold lettered and does not say GXW. That still makes me question whether the balance cock is original even though JohnF points out it's a perfect fit.

Blancpain never made a lot of watches or calibres at any point in its life although as Hartmut says they did use other ebauche makers (in fact even LIP at one time.)

[Ray MacDonald]

Perhaps some ceramic household items (dinnerware patterns) or silver hollowware are still being produced - although more likely in Indonesia/China than Stoke -on-Trent or Sheffield. Some of these "open stock" designs go back 100 years or more.
Also how about zylonite (cellulose acetate) eyeglass frames? Some of the patterns from the 1940s seem to be coming back into fashion today.
But I agree - not too much stuff from the 1940s still out there.

[JohnF]

Hi -

There are actually quite a number of "lifetime designs" out there, but not necessarily for the consumer. More than a few industrial products have had very, very long lifetimes, especially machine tools and the like. I can think of one manual lathe made by a US maker that has been produced in its current form for around 50 years or so: it is a low-power manual controlled finishing lathe that has a huge customer base amongst finishing and job shops, as it allows an artisan high-precision, low-volume manual work, as opposed to high-precision high-volume mass production of parts that other lathes in the same company's lineup of products offers.

But long-lived, standardized products are not what consumers want. Ultimately that counts more than anything else, as the consumers pay the bills.

Whereas a successful businessman back in the 1940s might be happy with a nice house, a decent car and a nice high-grade Waltham pocket watch, the successful businessman in the 2000s wants the nice house, a decent car, trophy wife and holidays in the Caribbean; they'd rather have five different quartz watches for five different life-style choices than a single really good watch. Those five watches cost less than 1/10th of what the Waltham would cost today (or a wristwatch of similar quality, reflated for current dollars) and for the businessman, they're just fine.

And I just recently received a timepiece that has been in production since 1928, is still on the market today in basically unchanged form - cosmetic changes, and there's a version with a moon dial, but basically it's unchanged - and now is keeping time in my living room to about 2 minutes/week (I'm letting it get used to its new surroundings and haven't tried to regulate it yet): my grandfather's Atmos from Jaeger LeCoultre. You can go to Wempe today and buy one that is virtually unchanged from the one he bought in 1963 (mine dates from then, according to family lore).

JohnF

PS: The ETA standard line up - 2824, 7750 - are now in what, their third decade? Also not bad...

[Hewybaby]

Did a little Googling and as far as I can see there are 4 stages to Blancpain history:
(1) 1735-1933 The Blancpain family owned the brand and manufacture.
(2) 1933-1970 Successors to Blancpain (Rayville SA) ran the company.
(3) 1970-1971 Swatch acquires Blancpain then mothballs the brand in the quartz era.
(4) 1983 - Swatch revives Blancpain as a luxury mechanical brand.

Some of the 1920s-1930s models before the Rayville takeover just say Blancpain Fils as you'd expect.

The Rayville models clearly say so and in fact on the balance cock you also see KXO in the same gold leaf. They look a lot like your particular watch, except the balance cock is gold lettered and does not say GXW. That still makes me question whether the balance cock is original even though JohnF points out it's a perfect fit.

Blancpain never made a lot of watches or calibres at any point in its life although as Hartmut says they did use other ebauche makers (in fact even LIP at one time.)

I will have to re-read Omega Saga (or rather the English reprint in Journey as my French is non-existent except for horological terms). Omega or the Omega holding company SSIH bought Blancpain/Rayville in the 1960s it seems I recall. It was one of what seems in my recollection to be one of roughly 10 companies swept up in a quest for more capacity during that era.

I don't think Swatch existed in 1970-71.

http://watchescorner.blogspot.com/2007/08/outsiders-who-saved-omega-and-swiss.html

This article gives Swatch's creation date as 1982, but Wikipedia cites 1983. Either date is after 1970. The 1970 date may be the purchase by Omega or SSIH, but I recall it being earlier.

[Hartmut Richter]

As far as I know, the Swatch was originally conceived around 1980. There followed a period of research and development, including the economic production of the thing (it originally cost around 50 Swiss Francs to produce, which wasn't economical once the remaining costs were added) and the thing was launched on the market in 1983.

Hartmut Richter

[Ray MacDonald]

Well technically SSIH bought Rayville but since SSIH is now Swatch Group I didn't bother with the old name. The date I have for the takeover was 1970.

[Hewybaby]

Well technically SSIH bought Rayville but since SSIH is now Swatch Group I didn't bother with the old name. The date I have for the takeover was 1970.

I am home now and found the text I was remembering in Omega Saga. SSIH bought the Blancpain/Rayville factory in Villeret in 1961, not the company.

[Hewybaby]

Thanks for all the responses. Now I just have to find hands that fit the face!