cosc certification

[watch lover]

Hi All
Is it odd that the same movement can be swiss certified (cosc?) yet in another watch of the same manufacturer it is not? Some valjoux 7750 are and some are not? If they can make some that accurate what not make the same effort with all of the watches with the same movement?
Is the technical name for movement 'escap'? Again , thanks to all members for the continued education of this newbee.

Very best wishes to all

[Chris Hohne]

I don't think it's odd. ETA makes about 5 versions of its 2824 movement. There is everything from the base model to the model with special mainspings, regulators, etc. The escapement is the device that allows the mainspring to unwind at a constant pace. The escapement mechanism can be fine tuned, honed, polished, and adjusted to be extremely accurate.

Practically any quality movement (I would put ETA/Valjouz movement in this category) can be made COSC certified. The certification only states that the movement is very accurate. I took a Zodiac automatic diver I had to my local watchmaker. I bought it NOS about 5 years old and it wasn't keeping consistent time when I got it. The watchmaker took it apart, cleaned it, put it back together, fine tuned it, and it keeps COSC time now. It's not a COSC-certified movement, but it keeps COSC time.

I have several Oris watches I bought that keep COSC time. They are not COSC certified, but these movements must have been the "cream of the crop" - just luck. Some of my Oris watches are not within COSC specs. In the discontinued Oris Full Steel series, there was a specific COSC certified chronometer and there were non-COSC versions also. Same model, same manufacturer, same movement - but the chronometers had special tuning to get COSC time.

I have an Eterna Super Kontiki Chronometer - COSC certifed and everything. It uses a ETA 2824 movement that has been tweaked to meet COSC standards.

There is a company in Pennsylvania - RGM watches. He primarily uses ETA movements, but they are meticulously reassembled and adjusted and are extremely accurate. He even uses old (like 50-year old) pocket watch movements in some of his newer watches. But believe me, these movements are fine tuned and very accurate.

Most Breitlings are COSC certified and move of them use ETA/Valjoux movements. It's just a matter of how much time and money you want to spend to get COSC time. And that determines how much you have to spend on that watch. Some will pay extra for COSC certification, some will not.

Chris

[CottyGee]

1. Is it odd that the same movement can be swiss certified (cosc?) yet in another watch of the same manufacturer it is not?

2. Some valjoux 7750 are and some are not?

3. If they can make some that accurate what not make the same effort with all of the watches with the same movement?

1. A COSC certification means that the movement inside of your watch was timed and met the standards. As I understand it, a certificate means that YOUR MOVEMENT was timed - not just a movement of the same model, but your exact individual movement.

2. So, if I had two identical movements, one I could submit to the COSC folks for them to time. The other one, I could just put into a case and sell to you. (In fact, the un-timed one could actually end up being more accurate than the one I submitted!) In the end, it amounts to a piece of paper, and of course, an additional expense for having the movement timed - an expense which obviously gets passed on to the consumer.

3. My understanding is that passing the COSC certification is pretty much very easy for most Swiss movements to pass the certification these days...


Somebody correct me if I'm wrong on any of this! I'm still a newbie to all this (but hopefully learning). ;-)

[watch lover]

1. A COSC certification means that the movement inside of your watch was timed and met the standards. As I understand it, a certificate means that YOUR MOVEMENT was timed - not just a movement of the same model, but your exact individual movement.

2. So, if I had two identical movements, one I could submit to the COSC folks for them to time. The other one, I could just put into a case and sell to you. (In fact, the un-timed one could actually end up being more accurate than the one I submitted!) In the end, it amounts to a piece of paper, and of course, an additional expense for having the movement timed - an expense which obviously gets passed on to the consumer.

3. My understanding is that passing the COSC certification is pretty much very easy for most Swiss movements to pass the certification these days...


Somebody correct me if I'm wrong on any of this! I'm still a newbie to all this (but hopefully learning). ;-)

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. Like you I am new. I have no idea what to beleive now as I had read in books and on the net that only a sample of the movement had to be passed by the COSC then the whole batch was acredited? I have no idea who or what is correct?
I also understood ALL Breitling movements where COSC and not just some. I was speaking to the Breiting rep here some weeks ago and he said the COSC cert' was not so important as it once was many years ago. The specifications for receiving COSC can be and should be acheived by most reputable mechanical watches according to him. The other point he mentioned was its not that expensive to have a movement COSC acredited?
All very very interesting.
Like yourself I would have thought that each individual movement would have to be approved but again I have read that this is not the case?
Please remember I am very 'green' in these matters and am quoting what I have read, please pass these comments with a bucket of salt!!

Best wishes to you.

[watch lover]

I don't think it's odd. ETA makes about 5 versions of its 2824 movement. There is everything from the base model to the model with special mainspings, regulators, etc. The escapement is the device that allows the mainspring to unwind at a constant pace. The escapement mechanism can be fine tuned, honed, polished, and adjusted to be extremely accurate.

Practically any quality movement (I would put ETA/Valjouz movement in this category) can be made COSC certified. The certification only states that the movement is very accurate. I took a Zodiac automatic diver I had to my local watchmaker. I bought it NOS about 5 years old and it wasn't keeping consistent time when I got it. The watchmaker took it apart, cleaned it, put it back together, fine tuned it, and it keeps COSC time now. It's not a COSC-certified movement, but it keeps COSC time.

I have several Oris watches I bought that keep COSC time. They are not COSC certified, but these movements must have been the "cream of the crop" - just luck. Some of my Oris watches are not within COSC specs. In the discontinued Oris Full Steel series, there was a specific COSC certified chronometer and there were non-COSC versions also. Same model, same manufacturer, same movement - but the chronometers had special tuning to get COSC time.

I have an Eterna Super Kontiki Chronometer - COSC certifed and everything. It uses a ETA 2824 movement that has been tweaked to meet COSC standards.

There is a company in Pennsylvania - RGM watches. He primarily uses ETA movements, but they are meticulously reassembled and adjusted and are extremely accurate. He even uses old (like 50-year old) pocket watch movements in some of his newer watches. But believe me, these movements are fine tuned and very accurate.

Most Breitlings are COSC certified and move of them use ETA/Valjoux movements. It's just a matter of how much time and money you want to spend to get COSC time. And that determines how much you have to spend on that watch. Some will pay extra for COSC certification, some will not.

Chris



Confusion rules here for me? I thought the valjoux movement was independentally made even though the company is now part of ETA?
I have been informed that ETA do make a 'valjoux copy movement' called the 2824 but it is not truly a valjoux??? All very confusing for us novices here.

I now understand how some movements are and are not made to COSC specifications, your explanation is great, thanks.

Was it correct when I was told that only a sample from each batch of a certain movement have to be inspected by the COSC for the whole batch to be accredited, or does EACH individual movement have to be seen and tested by the COSC?

I was also told ALL Breitling watches are COSC and not just some modles? Is this true?

Lastly what do Oris mean by "Valjoux 7750 base"? Does this mean that Oris take the 7750 and 'tweak' it as you have written?

I am so sorry to keep asking but what other way is there to learn. Thank you for your time and energy with me. (I have a lot more questions??)

Very best wishes.

[CottyGee]

Hmm... I guess I don't know for sure if each individual movement has to be tested. But that was certainly the impression I got reading over the certificate for my one COSC certified ETA7750 movement watch!

I think there's some official Swiss webpage that lists what exactly COSC means and what's required for a watch to claim "Swiss Made", etc. I'll see if I can find it. I know it's been posted recently.

[CottyGee]

Found this:

http://www.cosc.ch/chronometre.php?lang=en
A chronometer may thus be defined as follows:


A chronometer is a high-precision watch capable of displaying the seconds and housing a movement that has been tested over several days, in different positions and at different temperatures, by an official neutral body (COSC).

Each chronometer is unique, identified by a number engraved on its movement and a certification number given by the COSC.

Each movement is individually tested (emphasis added) for several consecutive days, in 5 positions and at 3 temperatures.

Each movement is individually measured. Any watch with the denomination "chronometer" is provided with a certified movement.

[Chris Hohne]

Valjoux was a separate company that was bought by ETA. Valjoux specialized in chronographs. ETA 2824 is a time/date only movement, Valjoux 7750 is a chronograph movement.

COSC requires each movement to be certified individually.

Not all Breitlings are COSC - i.e. Wings.

Not all Rolexes are COSC - i.e Airking, and no-date Submariner.

Chris

[watch lover]

Valjoux was a separate company that was bought by ETA. Valjoux specialized in chronographs. ETA 2824 is a time/date only movement, Valjoux 7750 is a chronograph movement.

COSC requires each movement to be certified individually.

Not all Breitlings are COSC - i.e. Wings.

Not all Rolexes are COSC - i.e Airking, and no-date Submariner.

Chris



Hi Chris,

The last thing I want to appear is a smart Alec, I know you have forgotten more than I will ever know about watches.
I do have the Breitling catalogue in front of me and can assure you that in this country, at least, ALL, including the wings are COSC. Just a minor point for you. even on the face it is written "Chronometre officielelment certifie".

What country are you in, the UK or USA?

How on earth do you know so much about the watch industry? Is this your profession? It should be!

Best wishes Chris.

[watch lover]

Found this:

http://www.cosc.ch/chronometre.php?lang=en



Hi,

I also thought that this must be the case. I was informed by the Breitling rep here that this would be impossible if one considers the sheer volume of movements made each day who have COSC. After the rep' talked to me about this I felt rather silly assuming that all movements would be inspected and tested.
He gave me food for thought and if we think about this just imagine the size of the opperation involved IF all movements where tested?
Sometimes the more I ask the more I wished I hadnt? lol.
I know a certain car maker claims a certain model has its engine built by hand by only one man. A recent TV programme investigated this claim only to find that this 'one man band' would have to make, by hand, something like 150 engines PER DAY for this to qualify. YET every engine in this model has a plaque with his signature written on it? (any Merc' owners out there with this model? take it back youve been had. lol)

Any more input on this?

Thanks for all the help I am receiving here. You seem a greast crowd of people.

[Chris Hohne]

You may want to share this information from the COSC website with your Breitling rep - all movements are individually tested.
--------------------------------
Founded in its current structure in 1973, the COSC ("Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres") is The Swiss Official Chronometer Testing Institute. It is a not-for-profit association, The COSC was founded by five watchmaking States ("Cantons") of Switzerland Geneva, Neuchâtel, Solothurn, and Vaud together with the FH, Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry, It encompasses the laboratories/observatories that had been created independently of each other from the late 19th century onward.

Nowadays, three laboratories do the actual testing of the movements submitted by the individual Watch Brand's manufacturers to be granted the official chronometer status, located in Biel/Bienne, Geneva & Le Locle.

The criteria first laid out by the General Time Railway Inspector Webb C, Ball in the U.S.A, in 1893 for Railroad chronometers and applied by the Waltham Watch Companysoon followed by the Elgin Watch Company and other American & Swiss Watch Manufacturers have of course evolved and been strengthened over the time, e.g, the international norm ISO 3159 provides the definition of a wrist-chronometer with sprung balance oscillator, with the COSC's own addition of a permanent display of the second.

Each Officially certified COSC Chronometer is unique, identified by a serial number engraved on its movement and a certification number given by the COSC, Each movement is individually tested for 15 days,in 5 positions, under 3 different temperatures, Based on these measurements, 7 eleminatory criterias are calculated, the minima of which must all be met e,g, for movements of a diameter over 20 mm, indicated in seconds/day:
Average daily rate: -4 +6
Mean variation in rates: 2
Greatest variation in rates: 5
Difference between rates in H & V positions: -6 +8
Largest variation in rates: 10
Thermal variation: +-0.6
Rate resumption: +-5

COSC have developed their own standard for testing Quartz Chronometers with 8 eliminatory criterias:
Average daily rate at 23 °C: +-0.07
Rate at 8 °C: +-0.2
Rate at 38 °C: +-0.2
Rate stability: 0.05
Dynamic rate: +-0.05
Temporary effect of mechanical shocks +-0.05
Residual effect of mechanical shocks +-0.05, 200 shocks equivalent to 100 G (981 m/s²)
Rate resumption +-0.05

Measurements are based on a time base established by 2 independent atomic clocks synchronised on GPS time.

Over 1 million official chronometer certificates are delivered each year, representing only 3% of the Swiss watch production, a proportion that underscores the exceptional nature of a chronometer, To earn chronometer certification, a movement must not only be made for the highest quality components, but also be the object of special care on part of the finest watchmakers and timers during assembly, standing out clearly from the standard watch production.

Sources: courtesy of "Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres", CH-2301 La Chaux-de-Fonds, Switzerland, email: info@cosc.ch
--------------------------------

[watch lover]

You may want to share this information from the COSC website with your Breitling rep - all movements are individually tested.
--------------------------------
Founded in its current structure in 1973, the COSC ("Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres") is The Swiss Official Chronometer Testing Institute. It is a not-for-profit association, The COSC was founded by five watchmaking States ("Cantons") of Switzerland Geneva, Neuchâtel, Solothurn, and Vaud together with the FH, Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry, It encompasses the laboratories/observatories that had been created independently of each other from the late 19th century onward.

Nowadays, three laboratories do the actual testing of the movements submitted by the individual Watch Brand's manufacturers to be granted the official chronometer status, located in Biel/Bienne, Geneva & Le Locle.

The criteria first laid out by the General Time Railway Inspector Webb C, Ball in the U.S.A, in 1893 for Railroad chronometers and applied by the Waltham Watch Companysoon followed by the Elgin Watch Company and other American & Swiss Watch Manufacturers have of course evolved and been strengthened over the time, e.g, the international norm ISO 3159 provides the definition of a wrist-chronometer with sprung balance oscillator, with the COSC's own addition of a permanent display of the second.

Each Officially certified COSC Chronometer is unique, identified by a serial number engraved on its movement and a certification number given by the COSC, Each movement is individually tested for 15 days,in 5 positions, under 3 different temperatures, Based on these measurements, 7 eleminatory criterias are calculated, the minima of which must all be met e,g, for movements of a diameter over 20 mm, indicated in seconds/day:
Average daily rate: -4 +6
Mean variation in rates: 2
Greatest variation in rates: 5
Difference between rates in H & V positions: -6 +8
Largest variation in rates: 10
Thermal variation: +-0.6
Rate resumption: +-5

COSC have developed their own standard for testing Quartz Chronometers with 8 eliminatory criterias:
Average daily rate at 23 °C: +-0.07
Rate at 8 °C: +-0.2
Rate at 38 °C: +-0.2
Rate stability: 0.05
Dynamic rate: +-0.05
Temporary effect of mechanical shocks +-0.05
Residual effect of mechanical shocks +-0.05, 200 shocks equivalent to 100 G (981 m/s²)
Rate resumption +-0.05

Measurements are based on a time base established by 2 independent atomic clocks synchronised on GPS time.

Over 1 million official chronometer certificates are delivered each year, representing only 3% of the Swiss watch production, a proportion that underscores the exceptional nature of a chronometer, To earn chronometer certification, a movement must not only be made for the highest quality components, but also be the object of special care on part of the finest watchmakers and timers during assembly, standing out clearly from the standard watch production.

Sources: courtesy of "Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres", CH-2301 La Chaux-de-Fonds, Switzerland, email: info@cosc.ch
--------------------------------



Thanks,

Wow, you certainly know your onions!!! I shall print this out and indeed 'share' this info with the Breitling rep'. Please understand I am very much new to the history of watches. I have always collected them but never had the time to study them as such. Dont be at all surprised that the information the Breitling rep' gave me in THIS country is wrong, most information is like that here?
This is the reason I seek to find the truth here.

This, perhaps, explains the vast price difference between the Oris and Breitling then?
I must say that todate, though I do like the Oris, I am very dissapointred with its time keeping, I have been going around looking very odd wearing a watch on each wrist, the Oris on my Left and various others on my right. The idea was to see just how accurate the Oris was. I can say this the winner so far (out of mechanical movements) Is the ETA based Tissot Le Locle (NOT the chrono).
The Tissot has made all the valjoux movements look rather sick, both the Le Locle Tissot modles I have keep very very good time +2 per day!! My Oris is working on + 15 per day, but oddly seems to be getting better??

Again, thank you for your kind replies. I do hope you dont mind my asking so many questions? Hm Hm.

Watch lover

[KILOFINAL]

thanks for that detailed explanation Chris.

[Simon St]

My TT1 gained about 15 seconds per day for several months before finally running in (oil distributed evenly around the movement) it now gains from 3 to 5 seconds a day when worn regurlarly which is excellent. A watches daily gain or loss is affected by gravity also so when worn on the wrist for several days after the movement has run in from new should improve. The same goes for my hand wound Omega Speedmaster Professional both movements are not Cosc certificated but are high quality movements in their own way. Remember that a watch maker can easily regulate your watch if need be in a few months.

Regards,

Simon

[tchaos]

A watches daily gain or loss is affected by gravity also so when worn on the wrist for several days after the movement has run in from new should improve. [snipped] Remember that a watch maker can easily regulate your watch if need be in a few months.

Regards,

Simon
daily gain/loss is affected by gravity due to position of the watch/movement, temperature, and magnetism (although not as much as before)... The recommended break-in period is 90 days to allow the oils to settle, as mentioned by simon above.