Can anyone help tell me about this pocket watch?

[gruntmedik]

Hi, this is my first post here, so please be gentle.

I inherited this pocket watch from my Papaw, and would love any info on it. I have full resolution pics if needed. It still keeps time (If I keep it wound:oops: )

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/gruntmedik/Pocketwatch002resize.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/gruntmedik/Pocketwatch003resize.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/gruntmedik/Pocketwatch005resize.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/gruntmedik/Pocketwatch008resize.jpg

[CalDiver]

grunt---Very cool to have a family heirloom like that pocket watch. Pocket watches really don't come up for discussion in this Ball wristwatch forum. There are plenty of other internet sites that have info on pocket watches. I would do an internet search and see where that takes you. You'll eventually find someone who knows all about your watch. Remember that the real identification of your pocketwatch is in the movement. You should get some good pics of the movement to help others identify exactly what you have snce Ball pocket watches were produced for many years. Have fun researching!!

[gruntmedik]

Thanks! He carried it all the time, so it has "character". Up until recently, I had no idea who had made it, but I've been bitten by the watch bug, and have been surfing for watch info. A thread on another forum I frequent mentioned pocket watches, and that got me thinking.

[86hawkeye]

Maybe someone at Ball could help you?

[nimbushopper]

It looks like an original Ball pocket watch. You need to contact Jeff Hess in St Petersburg, FL as he could tell you more about the watch than anyone else probably could. Jeff is CEO of Ball watch USA and his reputation is beyond reproach.

[JohnF]

Hi -

According to Shugart (Complete Price Guide to Watches), the Ball Watch Company didn't actually manufacture any watches, but rather was instrumental, forgive the pun, in creating what is really the first tool watch, the Railroad Standard watches. He helped formulate the first standards for time-keeping for commercial watches since the British, and by 1908 supplied watches to over 100 US Railroads that met the standards.

Ball watches were made by Aurora, by Elgin, by Hamilton, by E. Howard, by Hampden, by New York Watch Co., by Illinois, by Waltham, as well as by various Swiss manufacturers.

Now, we need a picture of the movement to aid in identifying, but Shugart does show a drawing, from an old cataloguem of this watch and case. It was called the "Conventional" dial, and was found on Waltham-made Bells.

If it is a Waltham inside, it could range from 15 to 23 jewels, and would have been made between 1900 and 1925. If you can provide the watch movement's serial number - not that of the case - then we can nail the actual date down fairly pat.

Great book, Shugart. One of the best to get if you are at *all* interested in any kind of watch, both pocket and wrist. :-)

JohnF

[gruntmedik]

Ask, and ye shall receive. These are the best I can do right now.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/gruntmedik/Pocketwatch041resize.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/gruntmedik/Pocketwatch025resize.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/gruntmedik/Pocketwatch020resize.jpg

[sukispop]

Great info, John, thanks very much! :-!


Hi -

According to Shugart (Complete Price Guide to Watches), the Ball Watch Company didn't actually manufacture any watches, but rather was instrumental, forgive the pun, in creating what is really the first tool watch, the Railroad Standard watches. He helped formulate the first standards for time-keeping for commercial watches since the British, and by 1908 supplied watches to over 100 US Railroads that met the standards.

Ball watches were made by Aurora, by Elgin, by Hamilton, by E. Howard, by Hampden, by New York Watch Co., by Illinois, by Waltham, as well as by various Swiss manufacturers.

Now, we need a picture of the movement to aid in identifying, but Shugart does show a drawing, from an old cataloguem of this watch and case. It was called the "Conventional" dial, and was found on Waltham-made Bells.

If it is a Waltham inside, it could range from 15 to 23 jewels, and would have been made between 1900 and 1925. If you can provide the watch movement's serial number - not that of the case - then we can nail the actual date down fairly pat.

Great book, Shugart. One of the best to get if you are at *all* interested in any kind of watch, both pocket and wrist. :-)

JohnF

[JohnF]

Hi -

Great! Will take a look this evening to identify exactly which model it is. Definitely a Waltham, though, as can be seen in the microadjustment mechanism on the balance assembly...

JohnF

[jhess]

JohnF,

Thanks!

your information is pretty solid.

However, you subscribe to what I believe is a popular misconception about Ball. Ball did make watches. Lots of watches. Prototypes and even some things for sale all from the ground up.

And even their watches with WAltham and Hamilton ebauches were in fact manufactured by Ball using plates and such provided by other companies.

This has bothered me for a long time so I finally got to the bottom of this with a converstion with a fellow in charge of the NAWCC museum. He has confirmed, though a series of letters between Hamilton and Ball, that BAll and hamilton got into a little arguement of sorts over how Ball was doing and prices of ebauches etc. The letter clearly outline that Ball was in FACT a manufacurer.

I also have in my possesion a letter from the President of Waltham to a major Railroad attesting that Ball was a "manufacturer" of fine watches and that BAll did more than Waltham or any other company to insure the safety and fine timekeeping on the Railroads.

I am paraphrasing some of this but will scan some of this info here on this thread on a later date.

I love this type of thing and enjoy this type of conversation.

Keep it up!

Jeff Hess

Hi -

Great! Will take a look this evening to identify exactly which model it is. Definitely a Waltham, though, as can be seen in the microadjustment mechanism on the balance assembly...

JohnF

[Dave Berghold]

Jeff,
This is something that I was not aware of. And I don't mean to doubt the authority, but why have I not seen information about a Ball Factory? And I don't ever recall seeing anything that was distinctly and 100% or "nearly" a complete Ball product? I could understand if they were buying ebauches from Waltham, Elgin etc... but having seen so many that were "finished" in the Ball way, I've not seen anything that was more than 95% from another manufacturer.

I'm looking very forward to the Ball Tour in the next couple of weeks coming to my shop...maybe this will shed some light on the situation. And thanks for the generosity of the auction gift bag..... I'm surely tempted to tuck that Ball pocket knife on my belt.... Your staff has been entirely gracious! If only all other watch companies worked as well as you and your staff do, the world of watches would be a better place!

Dave

[JohnF]

Hi -

Interesting, as Shugart is usually a pretty good reference. Now are you pointing to Ball as being what the Germans would call a "Manufaktur" (what we all want watch makers to be, making everything themselves...) or that Ball "made" watches?

As we know, there are all sorts of definitions and nuances out there: if you were to really, really lay out the definitions exactly, then there are very, very few "manufacturers" out there who make their own cases, movements, dials, hands, etc., as you either need a huge volume (Seiko, Casio) or very high prices (the Glashütte folks) to really make that work economically. Just about everyone else farms out at least some of their work because there are others who do it better and for less money.

Now, I'm no expert on pocket watches, but Ball does seem to have added significant value added (that's my criteria in distinguishing between someone who slaps a label on something and calls themselves a manufacturer and those who walk the walk), as can be seen by the extensive damascening and adjustment of many Ball pocket watches. I can easily see Waltham, Hamilton and the others protesting that Ball didn't "really" make watches, but did what virtually all major players do today: put together the watch from the best components available to provide the best price-performance ratio for your target audience.

So, I think we actually both agree: Ball was a manufacturer, but not like Hamilton, Elgin or Waltham, but if anything they were a modern manufacturer, maximizing their value added in the process while also maximizing their profits. Gruen, for instance, took a similar approach and outsourced the manufacture of their calibres when it became too difficult to compete against Waltham, Elgin and Hamilton in the US, moving their manufacturing from the US to that notorious country with low labor costs and skilled workers (Switzerland at the time).

And after all, that business model helped Ball survive when others closed down or were sold. :-)

JohnF

[particleman]

Nice Watch :-p I remember reading somewhere that beginning in the late teens Ball manufactured movements but my reference book (complete price guide to watches 2006) states that Ball was not a manufacturer. Anyways like John said Am. Waltham with "Conventional"
I think the movement is a 16 size. sn# 258881 Indicates the watch was produced in 1915.
Book also indicates case is gold filled.
I think the watch is complete & all original.
Your Movement, Case, Dial, & Hands look just like the pictures in my book :-)

According to same reference, watches marked "Ball Watch Co." are easier to find then those marked "Ball & Co."

The book also states that a Ball Ad in 1902 read, "We do not sell movements or cases separately"
Cheers

[shortcircut]

I also ask the same question. I at the present time am unable to post pictures of my watch. The face looks the same, this info is on the internal guts,(quote) 6 Positions Adjusted,Ball Watch Co.Cleveland Ohio,999B,21 Jewels,serial #1B25271,Trademark Offical Standard. This was my grandfathers watch and am curious about the preservation and value of this piece of americana, any help would be greatly appreciated