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  1. #11
    Mod. Russian, China Mech. Chascomm's Avatar
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    Re: Slava Transistor...

    Wow!.....

    I never thought anybody on this forum would get to own one. That's amazing. Well done!

    Interesting design, too. Clearly it is derived from the earliest Accutrons, right down to the case-back setting. And yet all those extra drill holes makes it look like a real prototype. I guess the Soviet watchmakers were not content with a simple reverse-engineering exercise, but wanted to do a few experiments of their own.

    This is a bit of a controversial watch, too. Just think about when this watch was made and the legal issues arising out of the Bulova patents; ESA had to stop production of their version, and Citizen had to buy a license from Bulova. Did the Soviets really pay for this technology or is this a genuine example of intellectual property infringement? In spite of popular myths, such things were extremely rare in the Soviet watch industry.

  2. #12
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    Re: Slava Transistor...

    Except for the one Yuri Levenberg has, this is the second one I see in all those years.

    Go and get it !. It is worth a premium, even in not working condition.

    There is an interesting anecdote is mentioned in Doensen’s book. He claims that the production of this movement was stopped because of the difficulties Slava had with its buildings. They were located on top of the Moscow subway. The trains cause so much tremblings that the production lines couldn’t yield some parts with the necessary precision.

    Tammo

  3. #13
    Member Mark Gordon's Avatar
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    Re: Slava Transistor...

    That's a very important piece, Phil. Wish it was heading for my collection. Go for it.
    -- Mark
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  4. #14
    Member Krzysiek_W's Avatar
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    Re: Slava Transistor...

    :oops: few days ago i saw this slava and i dont get it!

  5. #15
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    Re: Slava Transistor...

    On this subject there is an interesting article by Nick Downes on LIP (quote):

    The roots of the Russian watch industry

    Russia bought the liquidated American watch company La Dueber in 1928, and moved the machine tools and production facilities to Russia. Unfortunately, the movements and the equipment did not allow them to produce good quality watches, and so they looked for other ways to get better watch technology. In 1936, Fred Lipmann signed a deal which allowed Russia to buy movements and watch parts, and then to buy Lip’s technology. Russia got modern, reliable watch technology, and Lip got the cash it needed to get over the financial problems caused by its rapid expansion.

    Lip engineers and technicians supervised the installation of a factory at Penza near Moscow, and trained Russian engineers. They also sold a large quantity of T18 (tonneau) and R43 (pocket watch) movements to feed the factories while they were getting up to speed. All told, Russia produced some 10 million Lip-designed movements in the pre- and post-WWII periods. The Russian-produced T18 was called the Swesda, the R43 was called the Zim and the R26 was called the Pobjeda. The watches Saljut and Molnija used the R36 movement, which was also part of a deal between Lip and Russia.

    Russia produced the Poljot between 1965 and 1973, and virtually all its parts are interchangeable with the Lip R25. Similarly, there is a striking resemblance between the Lip T15 and the Slava. It seems certain that Lip sold technology at around this time to Russia. In 1969 Lip were invited to Russia to investigate bringing the Russian technology up to date, and a deal was signed in 1972 to allow Russia to get technical help from Lip. This cooperation continued until Lip’s demise in 1975, and resulted in the design of a Franco-Russian quartz watch.

    Note: the only sources I have for this information is the book by Marie-Pia Auschitzky-Coustans and references in articles in AFAHA bulletins. None of the sources I can find on Russian watches mention Lip. However, the pre-WWII period of Russian watch making is poorly documented, and the sources are vague. I have a Russian-made watch of the period, and as far as I can tell the movement is virtually identical to a T18. Of course, this doesn’t mean it isn’t just a good copy.


    Lip started experimenting with electricity in 1928, and they produced some interesting electric clocks in the pre-war period, but it wasn’t until 1948 that they started work in earnest on electric watches.

    On the 26th October 1960, Bulova released the tuning fork-based Accutron, and Lip realized that it was a superior technology to the R27. This provided the impetus for Lip to put increased effort into the development of what was to become the Lip R148.

    The R148 was Lip’s second electro-mechanical movement, but their first really successful one. It still used a balance, but had improved switching and circuitry, and only needed one battery as opposed to the R27’s two. It was also easier to produce and regulate. It had 14 jewels, beat at 18,000, and was fitted with a stop-seconds.

    The balance is maintained in oscillation by electromagnets that act on two “horns” on the rim of the balance. A fine wire acts as the switching contact. There is no contact when the balance is in the rest position. As the balance turns, an impuse pin pushes the end of the contact wire on the collet of the balance staff. As it is pushed, it makes the contact and an impulse is given to the balance by the electro magnets. There is only an impulse in one direction of rotation.

    The R148 went through numerous improvements and changes during its production. A version with a simple date ring, the R184, sometimes called the
    Datolip, was produced in 1964. Lip sold the R184 to companies including Benrus, Elgin, Marvin, Universal Geneve and Waltham.“ End of quote


    According to the Marie-Pia Auschitzky-Coustans book on the history of LIP, the
    Transistor was a joint effort by LIP and Slava. There is no verification of this claim
    so far, but looking at the history of LIP in the Soviet Union quite plausible.

  6. #16
    Member TZAG's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Slava Transistor...

    That was a VERY informative post Raketa Thank you!
    just above sea level

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  7. #17
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    Re: Slava Transistor...

    Quote Originally Posted by _Tammo_ View Post
    Except for the one Yuri Levenberg has, this is the second one I see in all those years.

    Go and get it !. It is worth a premium, even in not working condition.

    There is an interesting anecdote is mentioned in Doensen’s book. He claims that the production of this movement was stopped because of the difficulties Slava had with its buildings. They were located on top of the Moscow subway. The trains cause so much tremblings that the production lines couldn’t yield some parts with the necessary precision.

    Tammo
    Dammit! I really need a copy of Doensen!

  8. #18
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    Re: Slava Transistor...

    Quote Originally Posted by Raketa View Post
    The roots of the Russian watch industry bought the liquidated American watch company La Dueber in 1928, and moved the machine tools and production facilities to Russia. Unfortunately, the movements and the equipment did not allow them to produce good quality watches, and so they looked for other ways to get better watch technology.
    This conflicts with much of what I've read about the Dueber-Hampden derived movements and tools. It would however make sense in the context of the Ansonia tools and parts that were purchased in the same Amtorg deal.

    the R43 was called the Zim
    Again, I'm pretty sure this is the Hampden calibre.

    Russia produced the Poljot between 1965 and 1973, and virtually all its parts are interchangeable with the Lip R25.
    Really?

    In 1969 Lip were invited to Russia to investigate bringing the Russian technology up to date, and a deal was signed in 1972 to allow Russia to get technical help from Lip. This cooperation continued until Lip’s demise in 1975, and resulted in the design of a Franco-Russian quartz watch.
    This really is interesting and I'd certainly like to hear how this ties in with the first 30mm calibres from Slava/Raketa/Chaika. And what were the French outcomes of this partnership?


    The balance is maintained in oscillation by electromagnets that act on two “horns” on the rim of the balance. A fine wire acts as the switching contact. There is no contact when the balance is in the rest position. As the balance turns, an impuse pin pushes the end of the contact wire on the collet of the balance staff. As it is pushed, it makes the contact and an impulse is given to the balance by the electro magnets. There is only an impulse in one direction of rotation.
    This is a description of a contact-switching balance-wheel electromechanical movement. It may have been developed in response to the Accutron, but technologically it is unrelated.

    According to the Marie-Pia Auschitzky-Coustans book on the history of LIP, the Transistor was a joint effort by LIP and Slava. There is no verification of this claim so far, but looking at the history of LIP in the Soviet Union quite plausible.
    Plausible from a business partnership perspective, but from a technological perspective less so, given that the R148 was a completely different concept. Also the Accutron patents were still in force at the time, so there would have been a legal risk for Lip.

    Or were they using the USSR's lax intellectual property rights laws as an opportunity to develop a tuning-fork calibre in anticipation of the patents expiring?

  9. #19
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    Re: Slava Transistor...

    Quote Originally Posted by _Tammo_ View Post
    Except for the one Yuri Levenberg has, this is the second one I see in all those years.

    Go and get it !. It is worth a premium, even in not working condition.

    There is an interesting anecdote is mentioned in Doensen’s book. He claims that the production of this movement was stopped because of the difficulties Slava had with its buildings. They were located on top of the Moscow subway. The trains cause so much tremblings that the production lines couldn’t yield some parts with the necessary precision.

    Tammo
    You are right! See here:

    "G.5 Slava

    The existence of a Russian transistorised tuning fork watch 'Kammertoni' cal. 2937, produced by The First Moscow Watch Co. or by Slava has also been recorded. At first, the production of the delicate ratched wheel with its 360 teeth was not very successful, in Moscow. After a considerable amount of time, it turned out that the vibrations of the Moscow Underground caused the problems. A manufacturing plant outside Moscow was the solution. My appreciation goes to the chief of the research department of Ruhla, Günther Krug, who provided me with this information."

    It seems a bit mixed up though. What exactly does he refer to? Kammerton or Transistor?

    I stick to the most likely version, that the Transistor was a joint effort between LIP and Slava, until we find something conclusive and verified on this matter. See the dial of the first working model with the LIP R27 (yes, I know that the R27 and the follow-up R148 are of a different technique to the Transistor).

    Regards
    Raketa
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  10. #20
    Member vejarmr2's Avatar
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    Re: Slava Transistor...

    that is a heck of a find!!!!!


    Great job!!!!!!!!!!!

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