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  1. #21
    Member michele's Avatar
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    Re: Vostok classification database draft

    Quote Originally Posted by nht View Post
    Inside i saw no differences: about 36mm in diameter in both cases. As the movements also have same measure (24mm), both spacers are equal.
    I have an hypothesis. As experienced with the white RR, the dial on those new cases (420) is partially covered by the edge of the case, while on older models (020?) the dial is totally visible and it's totally "inside" the internal circumference of the case (then also closer to the crystal).

    I wonder if the size difference in the central section of the case is related with those differences of construction.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Vostok classification database draft

    Just after identifying the Komandirskie 39x (thanks Stefano and NHT) there are two more variants: one is like the opposite of 39x with regards to the right hand edges, with more pronounced curves. This type is still offered new and with 2409 movement.



    Another type is oval shape but asymmetrical.





    More info needed!

  3. #23
    Member michele's Avatar
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    Re: Vostok classification database draft

    Quote Originally Posted by Seele View Post
    Another type is oval shape but asymmetrical.
    More info needed!
    Four years ago, i have posted some pics of (more or less) rare cases - and the "asymmetrical" one is included:

    Some unusual Vostoks cases/bezels

    However, the one in that old thread has a normal black bezel. Don't know if it's original (that USSR-made dial was often offered with black bezel on octagonal models, maybe it's original), or if it's a Franken. The caseback is typical of post-Soviet Komandirskie.

    Oh, and there is the one with crown at 4 'o clock - i have three of them.

    As Churchill said, "Russia is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma"...
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  4. #24
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    Re: Vostok classification database draft

    Thanks Michele for adding more for me to consider!

    For the benefit of other members and to keep it in this thread, let's have a look at them:

    Picture 1:



    Appears to be a regular round case Komandirskie with Black Diver dial and regular hands, along with an unusual bezel. The case appears very dark, could either be the lack of reflection, or black finish. I do not feel that black-finished cases have been made extensively, if at all.

    Pictures 2 and 3:




    Unknown new type!

    Pictures 4 and 5:




    That is the same oval asymmetrical case I posted earlier; the eBay seller's pictures show chrome layer wear showing it is a Komandirskie case, but these pictures show an example fitted as an Amphibia but with a flat Komandirskie back, which should not accommodate an antimagnetic shield.

    Picture 6:



    4 o'clock crown case: I do not think I have seen an example with the familiar type of rotating bezel. Perhaps it was never intended to have a rotating bezel, thus not within the field of investigation here?

    Picture 7:



    This is the large round Amphibia case, scarce but examples are indeed known.

    Picture 8:



    3 o'clock crown pillow, more scarce than the 2 o'clock one but now well documented.

    Picture 9:



    Type 350 Amphibia case with swivel lugs.

    Picture 10:



    Unknown new type!

    Picture 11:



    Two-crown Amphibia.

    Picture 12:



    This I believe is the Type 350 Amphibia case with the pressed metal lugs replaced by thick wires. I am not sure if this warrants a new classification type, unless there's a different official appellation given to it. Mark Gordon's 1298 shows an example with the usual pressed metal lugs, but instead of rivets, wires with end loops were used instead, looking almost like a backyard fix.

  5. #25
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    Re: Vostok classification database draft

    Thanks Michele for adding more for me to consider!
    No problem! The pics are mostly from Ebay auctions that took place from 2002 to 2006, but i have stored many pics in the following years too. So i must browse my pics folder to check if there is some other thing.

    Picture 1:



    Appears to be a regular round case Komandirskie with Black Diver dial and regular hands, along with an unusual bezel. The case appears very dark, could either be the lack of reflection, or black finish. I do not feel that black-finished cases have been made extensively, if at all.
    I don't know if it's a reflection or a real black case, anyway that bezel is very rare. Seen just three or four times, one recently.

    "Unusual" case coatings were not a Vostok's habit until some years ago. There is a example of white-dial Vostok with big sailboat on the dial, and semi-transparent blue coating on the case (sort of anodyzed treatment).

    Pictures 2 and 3:




    Unknown new type!
    Dial and caseback seems in common with the watch that i have called "Komamphibia" some time ago (BTW, did you add that case too?). Don't know if the bezel is fixed or not.
    Pictures 4 and 5:




    That is the same oval asymmetrical case I posted earlier; the eBay seller's pictures show chrome layer wear showing it is a Komandirskie case, but these pictures show an example fitted as an Amphibia but with a flat Komandirskie back, which should not accommodate an antimagnetic shield.
    Pics from a 2003 auction, if i'm not wrong. Seller was "Rosso20" (not more on Ebay), an Ukrainian guy with lot of interesting stuff at cheap prices. Good times...

    Bezel and dial are matching though. Possibly a "transition", semi-mixed model (all in all the case was probably a sort of "experiment"), or a Frankenwatch with USSR parts. Caseback is the same for both the watches seen till now, so this asymmetric case should be post-Soviet. At least i think so

    Picture 6:



    4 o'clock crown case: I do not think I have seen an example with the familiar type of rotating bezel. Perhaps it was never intended to have a rotating bezel, thus not within the field of investigation here?
    I have this black one (in better conditions though, almost new, except a scratch on the case), and a NOS one with white dial, box and paper. If the paper is matching, it may be useful. I will check it today.
    No external bezel was mounted. The internal fixed bezel was always black.

    I have also a third one, found at the flea market, it was "frankened" with an U-boot dial. The front view was so destroyed by the rust, and the watch so messed up anyway, that i have fitted a Raketa bezel on it!

    Picture 7:



    This is the large round Amphibia case, scarce but examples are indeed known.
    I have one, "rare but not so rare" - it can be found with a bit of effort. Not an everyday find anyway - more an "everymonth" find.

    Picture 8:



    3 o'clock crown pillow, more scarce than the 2 o'clock one but now well documented.
    There was an identical U-boot version for sale with this, watches were new, so it should be original. Caseback was the same of the watch in pictures 2/3.

    Picture 10:



    Unknown new type!
    I remember that somebody (lot of years ago) reported this watch as used in Kosovo by Russian troops. Of course, as i have already said in the past, that's a totally uncontrolled rumour with no sources. Interesting case though.

    Picture 11:



    Two-crown Amphibia.
    discussed many times, seen in several configurations.


    Picture 12:


    This I believe is the Type 350 Amphibia case with the pressed metal lugs replaced by thick wires. I am not sure if this warrants a new classification type, unless there's a different official appellation given to it. Mark Gordon's 1298 shows an example with the usual pressed metal lugs, but instead of rivets, wires with end loops were used instead, looking almost like a backyard fix.
    Shape of these lugs indicates a professional production IMO. I have seen another one like this, if i'm not wrong. Probably the watch owned by Mark is fixed with home-made bent wires, probably to make it more resistant. But it's just my theory.
    Last edited by michele; July 26th, 2010 at 10:25.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Vostok classification database draft

    Hi Michele,

    Thank you for the additional information, much appreciated!

    To keep it brief, I shall just refer to picture numbers without showing the pictures again:

    Picture 1:

    Supposing it was an Komandirskie brass case but in black finish, and produced in any appreciable number as products for general sales, Vostok would have assigned a new third digit to its type number. It could also be a custom piece though: the owner's brother-in-law could have owned a PVD company!

    Picture 2 and 3:

    If we are talking about "Komanphibia", I guess we are referring to a Komandirskie round case taking Amphibia-type large crown, by fitting a crown tube meant for Amphibia. Perhaps case back dimensions is also a factor too. If the example in Picture 1 was indeed a Komandirskie case it might class as one as well...

    I have to admit that I am getting quite confused by the round cases, both Amphibia and Komandirskie! I'd await more experienced members to help with that.

    Picture 4 and 5:

    I am suspecting this as a Frankenwatch, and even possibly a "factory Frankenwatch" built as a styling exercise using existing parts, and somehow managed to leave the factory. The rarity of this asymmetrical case might suggest that it's experimental and existing parts built before dissolution were used, such as dials. We are speculating of course, but it sounds plausible nonethtless.

    Picture 6:

    Thanks for offering to check the paper that came with the white dial version. If the external bezel was put into place using the same wire mechanism as the familiar types then it would be within the scope of this investigation.

    Picture 12:

    I have decided to consider this as one of the variants of the Type 350 case.

    Of course, one of the back room boys at Chistopol might present us with a complete list which solves all our questions!

  7. #27
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    Re: Vostok classification database draft

    wonderful....... guys...... wonderful...
    watches are meant to tell times..

  8. #28
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    Re: Vostok classification database draft

    Further additions:

    I asked the vendor of this watch which is NOS with box and paper, thus expected to be original, about the type number and he said it's 091xxx. I do believe it is a "non-star" Generalskie case but the watch was built up during the chaotic post-dissolution period, hence the strange use of Amphibia hands. If it is indeed a Generalskie, then we have just found its case type number.







    Another new type, the "wavy" with hand-wound movement:




  9. #29
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    Re: Vostok classification database draft

    I think time is ripe for me to show the Amphibia section, as it stands now.

    As an introduction, I would like to say that this is an ongoing project, as an attempt to identify and classify the case types used in the very popular Amphibia and Komandirskie watches by Vostok, with attached - and almost invariably revolving bezels. Due to the interchangeability of parts, trying to identify an example of a watch based on dial markings would be fraught with danger, as mis-identification can be common. Hopefully it also goes some way to serve a second purpose, as an aid to identify spurious examples not put together at the factory.

    Amphibia models are with a stainless steel case, and in Vostok's six-digit code, the third digit being "0" signifies that, and the first two digits signify the actual design of the case.

    For illustrations I will try to use Phil's pictures as far as I can.

    Additional notes in italics are more or less "points to investigate further" and I would greatly appreciate any help from fellow members.

    Case type: 350

    Characteristics: round case, swivel lugs
    Movement: 2209, 2214
    Reference pages:
    Phil:
    http://www.netgrafik.ch/images/vostok_space2.jpg
    divers1
    divers2
    Mark Gordon Nos. 0662, 0754, 1135, 1298
    Michele Cuoccio:
    http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc02168.jpg
    NHT:
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...k_Amphibia.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...ibia_White.jpg

    Note: Although the Maiers' page shows one with flat-ended Amphibia crown, it has date (presumably 2214 movement) and regular Amphibia hands. Those shown by Phil have dome-tipped crowns and earlier forms of hands, including one with paddle hands. Mark Gordon's 0662 also shows dome-tipped crown, but with unusual combination of hands and a Komandirskie-signed dial with date, powered by a 2214 movement. An example was used by Yuri Viktorovitch Romanenko in the Soyuz 38 space mission, September 1980. Additional variants are documented with wire loops instead of the pressed metal lugs, and with rivets replaced by pieces of wire.


    Case type: 470

    Characteristics: octagonal case, often with dial signed Albatross
    Movement: 2409, 2409A
    Reference pages:
    Phil:
    infantry-watches9
    vostok-albatros
    vostok-radio-room
    sport-watches14
    Mark Gordon Nos. 0115, 0740, 0787, 1195, 1245
    Michele Cuoccio:
    http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc02107.jpg
    http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc02108.jpg
    http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc02113.jpg
    http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc02124.jpg
    http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc02119.jpg
    NHT:
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...20B%20CCCP.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...l%20Branco.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...timagnetic.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...a_Albatros.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...20B%20CCCP.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...20B%20CCCP.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...hed%20Case.jpg
    Robert Prochowicz:
    amfibia
    Komandirskie
    Komandirskie
    Albatros
    Komandirskie
    Amfibia
    Komandirskie
    Komandirskie
    Komandirskie
    Komandirskie
    Komandirskie
    Komandirskie
    Komandirskie
    Komandirskie
    Komandirskie

    Note: Mark Gordon's 1195 is fitted with a Komandirskie MOD dial with date and powered by a 2234 movement. Robert Prochowicz's 3037 appears to have a 2414 movement and Komandirskie hands, which may or may not be original. Most, if not all of them are equipped with a soft metal antimagnetic shield covering the back of the movement. Examples have been documented with polished or brushed finish on the case.

    *It is possible that both Mark Gordon's 1195 and Robert Prochowicz's 3037 are spurious pieces, need to look into them.


    Case type: First as 1190, then 630

    Characteristics: 300m tonneau
    Movement: 2209
    Reference pages:
    Phil:
    divers4
    Mark Gordon No. 0075
    NHT:
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...bia%20300m.jpg

    Note: the three verified examples, produced in 1981 and 1986, show different type numbers, as 1190 and 630 respectively. Lug width is 22mm.


    Case type: 119

    Characteristics: 200m tonneau
    Movement: 2209
    Reference pages:
    Phil:
    sport-watches18
    Mark Gordon: Nos. 0172, 0394, 0669
    Michele Cuoccio:
    http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc02156.jpg
    http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc02163.jpg
    http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc02151.jpg
    NHT:
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...%20Tonneau.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...%20Tonneau.jpg
    Robert Prochowicz:
    Amfibia_A
    Amfibia

    Note: The 119 appellation does not follow the established convention. The difference between the 300m and 200m versions can be seen here:



    Case type: 960

    Characteristics: "Neptune" case, single lug in middle
    Movement: 2409, 2414b 21-jewel and 31-jewel
    Reference pages:
    Ed Brandwein:
    Ed's Corner: Another interesting old Vostok Amphibia Cosmonaut
    Ed's Corner: Vostok Neptune Review
    Phil:
    divers3
    Mark Gordon Nos. 0208, 0547
    NHT:
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...nue%20Case.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...une%20Blue.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...ne%20Brown.jpg

    Note: Originally a variant of the Amphibia case with a slightly oval shape, it is not yet known if the type number 930 was assigned at the time. First made with brushed finish and a variety of dials. Most are with 21-jewel automatic movements with date, Mark Gordon's 0280 is powered by a 2409, however. Later on, this case, with confirmed appellation of Type 930, was used in the Neptune series with a distinctive dial design, polished finish, and equipped with 31-jewel version of the automatic movement.



    Case type: 020

    Characteristics: round case, thinner case body
    Movement: 2409
    Reference pages:
    Phil:
    submarine3
    Mark Gordon: No. 0116
    Michele Cuoccio:
    http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc02090.jpg
    http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc02096.jpg
    http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc02104.jpg
    http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc02130.jpg
    http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc02136.jpg
    NHT:
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...%20(Creme).jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...Creme%29_2.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...ic%20Green.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...%20(Verde).jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...e%20Branco.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...0in%20USSR.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...20B%20CCCP.jpg
    Robert Prochowicz:
    Amfibia
    Amfibia
    Amfibia
    Amfibia
    DSC06039-1
    Amfibia
    Amfibia
    Amfibia
    Amfibia

    Note: the thinner case body can take only the 2409 hand-wind movement, with a slightly domed case back. Middle section of the case is 2mm thick.


    Case type: 420

    Characteristics: round case, thicker case body
    Movement: 2416b, 21-jewel and 31-jewel
    Reference pages:
    Mark Gordon: Nos. 0316, 0759, 0789, 0791
    Michele Cuoccio:
    http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc02509.jpg
    http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc02082.jpg
    http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc02127.jpg
    NHT:
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...B%20POCCNN.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...ude%202416.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...B%20POCCNN.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...20Limitada.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...0IN%20USSR.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...t%20Helmet.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...k%20Rocket.jpg
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...bia%20Tank.jpg
    Robert Prochowicz:
    Amfibia
    Amfibia
    Amfibia
    Amfibia
    Amfibia
    Amfibia
    Amfibia

    Note: the Type 420 case can be considered as a development of the Type 020 case, the only difference is that it is slightly thicker, at 3mm, to accommodate the 2414 automatic movement, as seen in this picture by NHT. Its case back has a more pronounced dome.


    *More information would be needed for both Type 020 and Type 420 cases, and the two possible versions of the latter.


    Case type: ???

    Characteristics: large round case
    Movement: 2414 21-jewel
    Reference Pages:
    http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...16/zulu011.jpg
    Ed Brandwein:
    DSCN2918.JPG (image)
    Mark Gordon: No.0773

    Note: When seen from the front, the case perimeter extends well beyond the bezel.


    Case type: ???

    Characteristics: "Old Ministry"
    Movement: 2416b 21-jewel
    Reference page:
    Phil:
    divers6
    NHT:
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...1%20jewels.jpg


    Case type: 710

    Characteristics: current model Ministry case
    Movement: 2416b
    Reference pages:
    NHT:
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...B%20POCCNN.jpg


    Case type: 060

    Characteristics: long case with hidden lugs
    Movement: 2416b


    Case type: ???

    Characteristics: vaguely regular octagonal shape, no crown guard
    Movement: 2409A, 2414
    Reference page:
    Mark Gordon: No. 0506
    NHT:
    http://nht.no.sapo.pt/Relogios/actua...20B%20CCCP.jpg
    http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/15/p1000743a.jpg
    Robert Prochowicz:
    Amfibia
    Amfibia
    Amfibia

    *Still need to find period of production for each type, and confirm movements(s) used.
    Last edited by Seele; July 28th, 2010 at 19:57.

  10. #30
    nht
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    Re: Vostok classification database draft

    Well... i post a link to a 2001 Vostok Catologue: http://minidocs8.no.sapo.pt/Vostok%2...20-%202001.pdf

    - As you can see, confirm 091 code for non-star Generalskie type case.
    - Picture 10 has case type 93x

    - Note case 52x type too:


    - and more...


    Well... i hope this help


    And Thanks for this great job !
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