Glashutte: Current vs. vintage...What's the story?

[panamamike]

I've been searching for a GO, just to get an idea of what type of variety they provide. Quite a few nice watches.
I've also noticed that their older watches, GUB, don't seem to be spectacular. Am I missing something?

How did they go from a "basic" watchmaker to a high end watch in what seems to be overnight?

Regards,

Mike

[gatorcpa]

Glashutte was in the old East Germany (DDR) after WWII. There was no money for development of new product for over 40 years. Very few people in the Communist Bloc could afford top-grade watches anyway.

After reunification, the German government encouraged investment and development in the East. I believe the company was "re-started" by a member of one of the families who owned it prior to WWII. Glashutte Original was later sold to the Swatch Group, who has really ramped up the quality and marketing over the last 10 years or so.

Perhaps some German members here could provide more perspective?
gatorcpa

PS - More and possibly better information here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glash%C3%BCtte_Original

[panamamike]

Thanks for the input, yeah I saw the Wiki, just didn't know if what the back story was for the company. I guess the post WWII stuff just isn't going to be that great.

Mike

[Hartmut Richter]

Well, I wouldn't go that far. GUB were certainly on a par with e.g. Junghans. I.e. not in the Omega/Zenith league but a mass maker of comparatively good watches. Their quality was as good as any generic movement brand with ETA and AS movements but (like Junghans), they have the advantage (in modern day collection terms) of making their own movements. When you thing DDR (i.e. GDR), most people think "Trabi" (lifesize plastic car) but some companies were pushed to be equal to or better than a lot in the West (Carl Zeiss is another).

Hartmut Richter

[Janne]

Well, I wouldn't go that far. GUB were certainly on a par with e.g. Junghans. I.e. not in the Omega/Zenith league but a mass maker of comparatively good watches. Their quality was as good as any generic movement brand with ETA and AS movements but (like Junghans), they have the advantage (in modern day collection terms) of making their own movements. When you thing DDR (i.e. GDR), most people think "Trabi" (lifesize plastic car) but some companies were pushed to be equal to or better than a lot in the West (Carl Zeiss is another).

Hartmut Richter

With due respect, that is overly sanitized. Zeiss Jena made products that could never have competed with the Western products like Carl Zeiss AG, Leica or Hasselblad on a quality level, the only advantage was that you got an ok product at a much, much cheaper price.
Unfortunately, some parts of the cameras were unrepairable, like the shutter system.
Of course, the Zeiss Jena cameras were the only cameras of some quality available to most people living inside the Iron Border.
In many Easter Bloc countries ( Czechoslovakia, Poland and Hungary) East Geman products were considered largely to be of low quality.
GUB watches were for most part of a quite low quality, yes, comparable to the lowest quality West German watches.
PRIM was considered to be of a much higher Quality, together with most Soviet watches.
The top quality GUB products were unavailable to common people ( in said countries outside DDR).
Cars?
Well, there was no waiting time for Trabant and Wartburg in Czechoslovakia, but several years waiting time for Skoda, VAZ, Moskvitch and even Polski Fiat.

Yes, I used to live inside the Iron Border. And I still have my old Zeiss Jena camera.Plus my old the Soviet made Light meter. That one still works, despite being about 45 years old!

[Seele]

Janne,

I am afraid that our opinions differ regarding the Zeiss situation.

If you are talking about Carl Zeiss, as in the firms of Carl Zeiss Optical in Jena and the post-war firm based in Oberkochen, I have to say they cannot be compared to Leica and Hasselblad at all, because they did not produce cameras to any significant amount. Prior to WWI, Carl Zeiss Jena did flirt with camera building via a subsidiary called Palmosbau, which may or may not be the decision of the holding firm of Carl Zeiss Foundation, but what is certain is that the Carl Zeiss Foundation orchestrated the amalgamation of Palmosbau into ICA with some other smaller firms like Hüttig and Wunsche, and then in 1926 merged ICA with Goerz, Ernemann and Contessa-Nettel to form Zeiss-Ikon, with headquarters in Dresden, the camera manufacturer. Then decades later, the Foundation also got Carl Zeiss Jena to acquire Pentacon - as Zeiss-Ikon Dresden had become after a few more round of mergers - thus allowing Pentacon products to wear the "Carl Zeiss Jena" brand. Hasselblad do not make lenses, that means they are not comparable; and only quite recently that Leica Cameras became independently operated from the Leitz group, thus acquiring the capability of making lenses.

"Operation Paperclip" was launched by the US military to gut the firms of Carl Zeiss Optical and Zeiss-Ikon at the end of WWII, first located at Ingostadt and then moved to Oberkochen, so that the main firms - Carl Zeiss Foundation, Carl Zeiss Optical, Zeiss-Ikon, and Schott glass - could be established in the US-controlled zone. I shall not get too bogged down in the details, but it is true that the original and new Carl Zeiss Optical firms were in close contact and cooperation for a number of years afterwards, as Oberkochen simply did not have the technology to make some products (such as the reflex housing for the Contax), and generally lacking in the basic skills in lens-making. During the period of litigation, Carl Zeiss Optical Oberkochen was not allowed to mark their lenses "Carl Zeiss" but "Zeiss-Opton" until 1954, and I have examined these lenses including those in my possession, and found their design and workmanship slightly worse than what you could expect to find in the bin at a high school shop class!

That said, Carl Zeiss Optical Oberkochen did pull their socks up and learned the arts of lens making and managed to equal - and sometimes better - their estranged sibling in Jena. This, however, does not make the products of Carl Zeiss Optical Jena inferior by any mean. For more than two decades I used Praktica cameras by Pentacon Dresden and lenses from Jena and Görlitz (by Hugo Meyer); this terrified many of the other photographers at competing publications who used cameras by Canon, Nikon and sometimes even Leica, until they saw the results. The lack of competitiveness in the consumer market outside the COMECON nations is partly due to the general conservative approach towards making products which keep on-upping the competition, and that's pretty much the only reason.

[gatorcpa]

I guess the post WWII stuff just isn't going to be that great.

That's why the brand isn't widely collected today outside of a few dedicated collectors.

The thing with Glashutte is that the stuff from the 1970's and 1980's is pretty much the same as it was in the 1950's, simply because technological advancements in manufacturing made in the West during the post-war year just never made it to the DDR. Main reason was that since there was virtually no competition under their centrally-planned economic system, there was little reason to make investments in new production technologies.

I know nothing about East German cameras or lenses, but I suspect that industry was run by the DDR in much the same way as the watch factories.

Remember that most Swiss watch companies were having a very hard time keeping up with the technology by the 1970's. Omega, Jaeger-LeCoultre and quite a few others almost went out of business during this time.

So let's not be too harsh on GuB,
gatorcpa

[Janne]

That's why the brand isn't widely collected today outside of a few dedicated collectors.

The thing with Glashutte is that the stuff from the 1970's and 1980's is pretty much the same as it was in the 1950's, simply because technological advancements in manufacturing made in the West during the post-war year just never made it to the DDR. Main reason was that since there was virtually no competition under their centrally-planned economic system, there was little reason to make investments in new production technologies.

I know nothing about East German cameras or lenses, but I suspect that industry was run by the DDR in much the same way as the watch factories.

Remember that most Swiss watch companies were having a very hard time keeping up with the technology by the 1970's. Omega, Jaeger-LeCoultre and quite a few others almost went out of business during this time.

So let's not be too harsh on GuB,
gatorcpa

I would say that the state controlled GUB did one thing that at the end turned to a very positive thing.
The watch production was kept functioning, and not like in Switzerland, where most brands died.
Without the all-controlling state,we would not have the Glashutte brands we have today.

There are usually quite a few GUB watches for sale worldwide. Those are usually of the higher quality level, I guess if a cheap GUB watch broke, the owner threw it away and bought a new one.

I wish we had a car Forum, where we could discuss cars!!
I am a great fan of pre WW2 Tatra. Been looking for a nice, not overpriced example of the model 77 for some time now.

[panamamike]

That's why the brand isn't widely collected today outside of a few dedicated collectors.

The thing with Glashutte is that the stuff from the 1970's and 1980's is pretty much the same as it was in the 1950's, simply because technological advancements in manufacturing made in the West during the post-war year just never made it to the DDR. Main reason was that since there was virtually no competition under their centrally-planned economic system, there was little reason to make investments in new production technologies.

I know nothing about East German cameras or lenses, but I suspect that industry was run by the DDR in much the same way as the watch factories.

Remember that most Swiss watch companies were having a very hard time keeping up with the technology by the 1970's. Omega, Jaeger-LeCoultre and quite a few others almost went out of business during this time.

So let's not be too harsh on GuB,
gatorcpa

These are all good points and quite interesting stuff. However, at the end of the day, regardless of reason, it looks like the GUB stuff by in large wasn't of top quality. I'm not trying to say the good people of East Germany are at any fault, it was just the state of affairs.

Interesting to see how communism really impacted innovation.

Regards,

Mike

[Janne]

You are partly correct, but in defense ( of the system) I would say that they preferred not to change existing, working designs.
The machinery could be used untill they broke, servicing and parts were cheap. They also had to design around technical problems like "primitive" materials etc.
It should be said that the watch manufactures in Eastern Block had to manufacture everything themselves, as they could not opt to buy components from Switzerland etc, for political and Economical reasons.

So, despite the somewhat comparably low quality, those movements were truly Inhouse!!

I do not know much about GUB, but PRIM made more or less everything themselves, possibly the jewels were sourced from GUB or a Soviet manufacturer.

GUB I imagine did the same.

EDIT: A little bit like ETA !!!!