Thread: Help with watch identity.

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  1. #1
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    Help with watch identity.

    Hi there, I'm a newbie from the UK, hope you can help me please. I have just purchased a 'Winegartens Ltd.' 9 karat gold gents wristwatch. I have looked at the movement and it is a 17 jewel 'Winegarten' movement. I am having problems finding out anything about this company, I bought the watch because i liked the look of it, I collect vintage mechanical wristwatches. can anyone help me with finding out some history of this company, and weather 'winegartens' actually made the movement or was is made by another comapny. Any other info about the watch or the company would be much appreciated.
    Thank you
    Steve

  2. #2
    Mod. Public/Cafe and MaL Ray MacDonald's Avatar
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    Re: Help with watch identity.

    Sorry we need a photo of the movement itself to tell you anything. Please read our sticky note on watch identification for more details.
    The watch looks to be late 1940s/early 1950s to me. Winegarten is a London jeweler so it's probably a Swiss private label movement.
    Last edited by Ray MacDonald; September 3rd, 2007 at 15:05.

    There are fathers who do not love their children; there is no grandfather who does not adore his grandson. ~ Victor Hugo

  3. #3
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    Re: Help with watch identity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray MacDonald View Post
    Sorry we need a photo of the movement itself to tell you anything. Please read our sticky note on watch identification for more details.
    The watch looks to be late 1940s/early 1950s to me. Winegarten is a London jeweler so it's probably a Swiss private label movement.
    Hi, yes sorry, here is a photo of the movement.
    on the movement are the numbers 902210, and 'winegartens', also in the bit of the movement that you can't see because of the flash, it says '17 jewel' 'swiss', hope this helps you to help me Thank you

  4. #4
    Mod. Public/Cafe and MaL Ray MacDonald's Avatar
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    Re: Help with watch identity.

    I think I'll leave this one for our European experts although it still looks like a late 1940s, early 1950s watch to me.

    There are fathers who do not love their children; there is no grandfather who does not adore his grandson. ~ Victor Hugo

  5. #5
    Vintage/PilMil/MKII Moderator JohnF's Avatar
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    Re: Help with watch identity.

    Hi -

    First of all, welcome to the forum, steveluigi!

    I'll agree in part with Ray, as he has correctly identified that Winegartens Ltd. is indeed a UK jeweler and that we're looking at a made-for-them watch.

    It's a very handsome watch: how big is it? I am guessing around 30mm diameter. The calibre looks to be 10.5''' or 23.3mm.

    Originally I'd have dated it a tad earlier than the mid-1940s/1950s, though: the case has fixed lugs, which largely vanished by the end of WW2 because you can easily replace a broken springbar, but replacing a broken case is significantly more expensive, especially if it is a civilian gold case.

    The calibre inside is almost certainly a FHF 70 or one of the similar incarnations of this calibre, but without the chaton on the escapement cap jewel. This was a further development of their pre-war FHF 215 and is a rather nice calibre, running at 18'000 bph, and dates from at least 1950. It was their workhorse calibre.

    Lacking the chaton on the escapement cap jewel and having the engraving "Winegartens" points to a custom-made series for that jeweler, who then encased the watch and sold it under its own private label.

    I think what you have there is a lovely example of a pre-war gold case coupled with a post-war movement. Not sure if I am right on that pre-war case, though, as Winegartens may simply have been a very conservative jeweler who insisted on this kind of casing longer than others would have.

    Regardless, it's a very handsome and striking watch. Congrats on the excellent condition, and how is it working?

    We always ask about the maintenance record of the watch: has it been maintained recently, how is it keeping time, etc: skipping or neglecting maintenance can badly damage any watch, and it is always worth it to take the effort to find a professional, qualified watchmaker to take care of such a beautiful watch.

    Hope this helps.

    JohnF
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  6. #6
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    Re: Help with watch identity.

    Thank you very much for your help in identifying my watch. I only bought it this past Sunday from a 'car boot sale' I paid 25 ($50ish). It winds and runs perfectly keeping perfect time (tested over 1 full day). I don't know the maintainance history, but the seller was going to sell it as scrap gold if no one bought it (stupid waste). I had no idea what the watch was when I bought it, all I know is that it was love at first sight. When i buy watches (I have some 40 now) I always go on the looks, if it catches my eye and I like it enough I will buy it. All of my watches are vintage 40s, 50s and at the latest 60s. I don't know why I like them so much, I just do. They don't have to be famous makes for me to like them, it's just the style and design that catches my eye.
    Once again, thank you very much for your help and I hope I will be able to contribute as much to the forum as you have to help me.
    Steve
    By the way, the diameter of the watch is 35cmx32cm including the crown and the fixed lugs
    Last edited by steveluigi; September 5th, 2007 at 15:12.

  7. #7
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    Re: Help with watch identity.

    Hi again, while I'm here I thought as I share a great interest in vintage watches with the rest of the members on this thread, you will all be the same as me and like to see a bit of eye candy now and again As you have helped me so much with the identity of my 'Winegartons' watch, I thought I'd share with you some of my favorite watches from my collection. Hope you all like them as much as I do. Once again, Thank you
    Steve
    P.S. If ayone would like to know anything about any of the watches, i will try my hardest to halp although as you may have guessed i'm no expert, I just have a good eye for watches.
    Last edited by steveluigi; September 5th, 2007 at 15:48.

  8. #8
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    Re: Help with watch identity.

    Just joined this forum having come from a google search for Winegartens, some really useful information here. I have a watch by Winegartens too, purchased about three years ago from a car boot for a fiver or something. Not gold like yours though, lovely looking watch.

    The one thing that interests me is that my watch is labeled as a 17 Jewel 'Rubychoc' which I've never come across before and cannot find any information on at all. All I do know is the movement is a swiss A. Shield (AS) 1220. I guess the rubychoc is some kind of antishock system different to incabloc etc?

    During my searches on the Winegartens brand, I've seen a few pocket watches around bearing and a couple of watches but not that often.

    When I first searched a few years ago I found it was a department/jewellery store in Bishopsgate.

    A quick search now shows this, bidding has ended but there is a page on ebay with some forks from Winegartens... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/winegartens-lt...QQcmdZViewItem

    Also a couple of planning applications for signage made by Winegartens Ltd of 198-190 Bishopsgate London EC2... http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corpo...ta/22/2246.htm

    And interesting note about
    the founding of the store... http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read...-06/1088031272

  9. #9
    Mod. Public/Cafe and MaL Ray MacDonald's Avatar
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    Re: Help with watch identity.

    Thanks for posting and welcome. We hope you'll enjoy your stay here and continue to participate.

    There are fathers who do not love their children; there is no grandfather who does not adore his grandson. ~ Victor Hugo

  10. #10
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    Re: Help with watch identity.

    Thank you for the warm welcome Ray :)

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