Some advice needed

[Lou]

Ok some of you may know what happened recently regarding an item that was sold and taken whilst in the postal system.

Well the buyer now wants full refund and doesnt want to wait for the claim to go through, what would you guys do.

[MD51]

Lou,

If you are sure that you can trust the buyer then I would refund the money. If not you should wait until the claim goes through. If you don't know the buyer then he could just be trying to pull one over on you. He could be wearing the watch and if you give him the refund he just got himself a free b. You know what I mean. I would probably just wait for the claim to go through just to cover your own a$$.

[tompw]

Did you say that the watch was insured? As it certainly wasn't your fault I take it that the amount the watch was insured for would be more or less the same as what the guy paid you for? Do you know for sure if you will definitely be getting your full money back from the insurance?

I would wait for a full investigation to find out how it happened and who was to blame. It isn't your fault, you clearly insured it, and you have every right to inform the buyer that you wish to wait for the results of the enquiry.

Once you have given the refund the buyer is effectively out of the picture. The buyer is a prime witness to what happened. It is vital that you keep him/her on a leash until a full picture of what happened comes to light.

[botudi]

Don't even think to give him the money before the whole deal is closed !

[Lou]

The special delivery was well insured and my gut tells me not to refund until the claim is done, due to the fact that he only has 3 feedback and then emailed me with another ebay account showing over 200+ feedback for buying and selling watches, This started to ring bells.

As an ex internal investigator, my knowledge would also show that his mother signed for it, and he claimed it was opened and resealed.

What i am not sure on is if paypal, can force me to refund before the claim is dealt with. The funds are already transfered to my bank account, can they access and freeze the bank account to recover funds before the claim, if he insisted.

[thestumper]

Not that I've been through this, but MY gut says liten to YOUR gut :)

Buying and selling over the internet and leveraging postal services is risky for both sides. The situation sucks, and it sucks for both of you. Both parties knew the risks/potential complications when they entered the deal. I think patience and respect is in order from the buyers perspective - you need all the information to make full reparations. If the postal service at some point were to deny your claim, then you have some soul searching to do - at some point I would think you'd have to refund him. Still wise to get the investigation results before taking action.

I'm not sure what the PayPal implications are. I don't think PayPal has the ability to freeze your bank account, but I'm sure as hell going to look into it now that you mention it. Beyond that, I don't know what other actions PayPal might take, but I would assume that they could freeze your PayPal account if they wanted to.

Now you have me thinking what I might have singed away when I registered that account. I hope someone posts up with an authoratative answer to this.

[rbt]

Lou, I think what paypal does is debit your account if the funds aren't there. Then they start with the phone calls and the bill collectors.

[botudi]

What i am not sure on is if paypal, can force me to refund before the claim is dealt with. The funds are already transfered to my bank account, can they access and freeze the bank account to recover funds before the claim, if he insisted.

hope that won't be the case...but i don't like paypal at all...never used (or will use) it

don't give him the money before it's over....even if paypal force you find a way to buy time....eg. if happens: write to your bank if this is possible, write back to paypal to demand certification, or something...do all you can and imagine not to give the money prior to investigation's end

[Go Bears!]

I agree with the others. Definitely wait for the claim to be completed. It's a process. Just apologize for any inconvenience and tell them you appreciate their patience. The worst that can happen is that the buyer leaves you a negative feedback. Hope this helps!

[Lee F]

Lou,

The terms and condition of Paypal should be read carefully, in particular the seller/buyer protection part.

I have made a claim against a seller who sold me a fake watch. Paypal reimbursed me and they then claimed against the seller. If there is money in the Paypal account they wil freeze that until the dispute is settled. If not, Paypal cannot simply withdraw funds from your account.

Paypal TC state that you must use a signed for postal service. You have, so Paypal will not be interested in your loss. ( Although you will ne to be able to demonstrate this )

You should claim from Royal Mail.

You should also contact the police and report this as a theft and inform the other party that you have done so.

Don't part with a penny - the loss is with Royal Mail or it's a straight theft.

IMHO I think the 'theft' occured after it was delivered.

Good luck.

From Paypal -

1. Purpose and operation. PayPal’s Seller Protection Policy is designed to protect sellers against claims by buyers of unauthorised payments and against claims of non-receipt of any merchandise. In order to be covered by the Seller Protection Policy, sellers must fall within the risk reducing conditions specified in paragraph 3 (Policy Conditions) below.
   
   When a seller receives funds through PayPal, if the buyer files an unauthorised transaction claim or escalates a dispute into a claim or if applicable, otherwise files a claim under PayPal’s consumer protection programmes (a “Buyer Claim”), or if the buyer reverses a payment transaction with their debit or credit card issuer (for example, by filing a chargeback), a “Temporary Hold” will be placed on the funds. In the case of a Buyer Claim, in situations where a dispute preceded the claim, the Temporary Hold will have been placed when the dispute was filed and will be maintained if the buyer escalates the dispute into a claim. If the transaction qualifies for protection under the Seller Protection Policy, the temporary hold will be lifted from those funds. Depending on the amount credited to a seller’s PayPal account at the time the “Temporary Hold” is put in place, it may result in the seller owing an amount to PayPal while the payment transaction is investigated.
   
   If the transaction does not qualify under the Seller Protection Policy, PayPal will review the Buyer Claim, including all information provided by the seller, and make a determination. In the case of a reversal/chargeback, PayPal will determine whether the reversal/chargeback can be disputed with the card-issuing bank. If PayPal disputes the reversal/chargeback, the “Temporary Hold” will continue until the dispute is decided by the applicable card company.
   
   If the seller loses a Buyer Claim or a reversal/chargeback dispute and does not qualify for the Seller Protection Policy, the seller will owe PayPal for the amount of the reversed transaction. In the case of a reversal/chargeback, sellers who do not meet the requirements of the Seller Protection Policy will also owe a£7.00 GBP reversal/chargeback fee. PayPal will seek to recover the funds from sellers by debiting their PayPal balance. If there are not sufficient funds in the seller’s PayPal balance, sellers have a choice of reimbursing PayPal by funding their PayPal account or by other means as described in the Payments (Sending, Receiving, and Withdrawals) Policy.
   
   If a reversal/chargeback dispute is won, the “Temporary Hold” will be lifted and the seller will be free to use those funds, but the seller will be charged the £7.00 GBP chargeback fee if the transaction does not qualify for Seller Protection.

1. Coverage (amount and exclusions).
2. Amount: Seller Protection Policy covers up to £3,250.00 GBP per year.

• Exclusions: Seller Protection Policy does not cover:
  • Intangible goods, such as services and sales or licenses of digital content. Only the sale of physical goods is covered.
  • Claims for receipt of goods “not as described”: Reversals/chargebacks arising from claims that goods are received but "not as described". To reduce your risk of "not-as-described" claims, PayPal recommends describing your item in a clear, detailed manner and including pictures of it in your offer for sale.
  • Total reversals over the annual limit: Once the £3,250.00 GBP annual limit has been reached (or the equivalent amount in the relevant currency below), the seller may be liable for additional reversals/chargebacks. At PayPal’s sole discretion, select sellers may qualify to receive additional coverage above the annual limit.
  
  
  CountryAmountUSD$5,000.00 USDCAD
  $6,500.00 CAD
  EUR
  €4,000.00 EUR
  GBP
  £3,250.00 GBP
  JPY
  ¥550,000 JPY
  AUD
  $7,000.00 AUD
  CHF
  6,500.00 CHF
  NOK
  3,300.00 NOK
  SEK
  40,000.00 SEK
  DKK
  31,000.00 DKK
  PLN
  16,000.00 PLN
  HUF
  1,080,000 HUF
  CZK
  120,000.00 CZK
  SGD
  $8,100.00 SGD
  HKD
  $38,000.00 HKD
  NZD
  $7,700.00 NZD
  
  

1. Policy Conditions. All of the following conditions must be met for a transaction to qualify for the Seller Protection Policy.
2. Account Conditions:
   • The seller has a Verified Business or Premier Account.
3. Payment Conditions:
   • The transaction is between any US, UK or Canadian buyer and any qualifying US, UK or CA seller. Please note that while sellers outside of US, UK and Canada may meet the other conditions of the Seller Protection Policy, they do not qualify at this time.
   • The payment is listed as "Seller Protection Policy Eligible" on the Transaction Details page. Sellers are encouraged to review the Transaction Details page to see whether their payment transaction is “Seller Protection Eligible” before fully completing their commercial transactions. To see the Transaction Details for a payment, log in to your PayPal account and click the History within My Account, then click the Details link next to the transaction in question. If a transaction is not listed as "Seller Protection Policy Eligible" it will not be covered under the Seller Protection Policy.
   • The seller accepted a single payment from one PayPal account for the purchase. Please note: There is a greater risk of fraud when multiple payments from different PayPal accounts are used to pay for a single item.
   • The seller does not charge a surcharge for accepting PayPal payments. Sellers should not charge buyers any additional fee (or “surcharge”) if the buyer chooses PayPal as the method of payment.
4. Buyer Address Conditions
   • The seller posts to the address listed on the Transaction Details page. If a transaction is listed as "Seller Protection Policy Eligible" on the Transaction Details page (see 3.c.ii below), sellers must post to the Confirmed Address on the Transaction Details page.
   • Confirmed Addresses. A confirmed address is an eligibility requirement for the Seller Protection Policy. Posting to a confirmed address may reduce risk and should be considered by the seller even if a transaction is not eligible for the Seller Protection Policy.
     
     A Confirmed Address is either the address at which the buyer receives their credit card statements, or an address of the buyer which PayPal has confirmed outside the credit card system.
   
   
5. Posting and Posting Documentation Conditions
   • The seller posts the item(s) to the buyer within 7 days of receiving payment.
   • The seller provides reasonable proof of postage from an independent shipper. The posted goods must be trackable online. Proof of postage should show that the address to which the item has been posted corresponds to the address on the Transaction Details page (see 3. c. i. above). If a reversal occurs, you will need to provide PayPal with the name of your chosen postal company and the online reference number. For your convenience, PayPal provides a list of popular and currently approved services offering proof of posting.
     • For transactions equal to £150.00 GBP or more in value, the seller needs to provide proof of receipt (signed, or otherwise acknowledged, by the buyer) in addition to postage and tracking information. The equivalent transaction amount in non-GBP currencies at which the seller must provide online proof of receipt by the buyer is as follows:
       • $250.00 USD
       • $325.00 CAD
       • €200.00 EUR
       • £150.00 GBP
       • ¥28,000 JPY
       • $350.00 AUD
       • 330.00 CHF
       • 1,600.00 NOK
       • 2,000.00 SEK
       • 1,500.00 DKK
       • 800.00 PLN
       • 55,000 HUF
       • 6,000.00 CZK
       • $400.00 SGD
       • $2,000.00 HKD
       • $380.00 NZD
6. Seller Response Conditions
   The seller cooperates in resolving disputes by responding in a timely manner. If PayPal contacts the seller with regard to a Buyer Claim or chargeback, the seller needs to provide the requested information to PayPal within ten days. If PayPal contacts the seller with regard to a claim that an unauthorised or potentially fraudulent payment was made, the seller will normally be required to provide the requested information within 7 days.