Sudden two minute loss

[artec]

I have an 8-month old Aerospace Avantage which until last week was keeping exemplary time..... within the 15 seconds a year spec. In fact, since Sep 1st, it had gained 3 seconds. I wear it 24/7, except in the shower. I don't check it against WWBV every day but I do about once a week. Just by way of explanation, I'm an accuracy freak and also have a Citizen Chronomaster, another thermocompensated quartz, with a spec of 5 seconds a year. It is also worn 24/7 and has been spot on since May.

The minute hand on the Breitling moves twice per minute, at the 30 and 60 second point and I have been in the habit of checking the minute hand movement against the seconds-hand of the Citizen, and seeing the minute hand move about 3 seconds before the Citizen reached the 6 o'clock or 12 o'clock points.

On Monday, I noticed that the Breitling minute hand moved on schedule but then noticed that the Breitling's minute hand was two minutes behind the Citizen's.

I checked them both against WWBV and found that the Citizen was still spot on while the Breitling minutes-hand was two minutes slow but was moving, as before, 3 seconds early.

I can't say exactly when the two minutes vanished or whether they went suddenly or over a period. My first thought was that maybe the minute hand momentarily lost its grip, but to lose it and then regain it firmly enough to follow the half-minute schedule doesn't seem to make any sense.

Has anyone ever come across anything like this before or does anyone have any idea what would cause it? Any thoughts would be welcome. I've sent it back to Mr. Breitling via the AD but I doubt if he will tell me what he found, if he found anything, and I'm a little apprehensive that he will watch it for a few days and then send it back saying he can't find anything wrong.

[eurocopter]

What happened to digital time? Was it still correct and only hands were 2 minutes behind? I that case the stepping motor missed 4 steps and should see service. Or someone turned the crown while pulled out in hand synchro mode. 4 steps is not much. Anybody could get a grip on the watch while you're in shower?
Another question. Who wears the Chronomaster?

[artec]

What happened to digital time? Was it still correct and only hands were 2 minutes behind? I that case the stepping motor missed 4 steps and should see service. Or someone turned the crown while pulled out in hand synchro mode. 4 steps is not much. Anybody could get a grip on the watch while you're in shower?
Another question. Who wears the Chronomaster?

Hi Eurocopter, thanks for your response and interest.

To answer your questions:
1 Yes, the digital time was still ok, only the analog was astray.
2 The crown was never even turned, let along pulled out, during the three weeks or so prior to the anomaly being noticed, and even more certainly during the week after the last occasion on which the Breitlings time was checked.
3 Alas, no-one shared my shower or the bathroom in which my shower lives. I live alone except for a couple of cats and neither of them has opposing thumbs...... just very sharp claws.
4 I wear both the Breitling and the chronomaster. I have two arms and it seems a pity to let one of them go to waste. Just as I have two feet, one for each pedal, now that I'm driving an automatic.

I agree about the service and have already sent it back to Mr Breitling via the AD. Fortunately (???) the watch is still under warranty, but this naughty behavior when the watch is so young does not inspire confidence. If the service and/or accompanying diagnosis is unsatisfactory, I may be reduced to being a one-armed paper-hanger, with only the apparently bullet-proof Chronomaster.

I agree that 4 steps of the stepping motor isn't much, but it's too much! It's easy enough to re-synchronize the analog and digital readings but that's not something that should require routine attention. If the works are clever enough to know about February and leap-years etc, it ought to be clever enough to pat the top of its head and rub its stomach at the same time, to say nothing of keeping the minute hand in line.

[eurocopter]

Ok then, we are left with four missed steps. It wouldn't inspire my confidence in the movements either. I have an ETA 988.333, so far it never missed a step in six years. I'm just wondering how different the two are, besides the circuit board which is thermocompensated in Aerospace. Mechanically could be the same except I have never seen how the backlight is integrated. It would be nice if someone can post pics of B79 disassembled.

If the works are clever enough to know about February and leap-years etc, it ought to be clever enough to pat the top of its head and rub its stomach at the same time, to say nothing of keeping the minute hand in line.

The circuit board is one thing, mechanical part is other. I know what you mean, it would be nice if the movement know what exactly the minute hand position is, but it doesn't. Otherwise you wouldn't have to synchronize the hands to digital time. Once synchronized, the electronics just provide impulses to motor which advances the minute hand. And if the motor missed the impulse or maybe something in the gears prevented the step there is no control mechanism to correct it, so the hands stay behind even if all subsequent steps of the motor are executed. Looks like this is normal with B78 and it's second hand, which sometimes looses sync while stopped during backlight and then tries to catch on. See this thread about it.

Here is ETA 988.333 sheet if you're interested. Mechanical part is maybe identical to B79. Breitling aficionados, please don't laugh.

[artec]

Ok then, we are left with four missed steps. It wouldn't inspire my confidence in the movements either. I have an ETA 988.333, so far it never missed a step in six years. I'm just wondering how different the two are, besides the circuit board which is thermocompensated in Aerospace. Mechanically could be the same except I have never seen how the backlight is integrated. It would be nice if someone can post pics of B79 disassembled.

The circuit board is one thing, mechanical part is other. I know what you mean, it would be nice if the movement know what exactly the minute hand position is, but it doesn't. Otherwise you wouldn't have to synchronize the hands to digital time. Once synchronized, the electronics just provide impulses to motor which advances the minute hand. And if the motor missed the impulse or maybe something in the gears prevented the step there is no control mechanism to correct it, so the hands stay behind even if all subsequent steps of the motor are executed. Looks like this is normal with B78 and it's second hand, which sometimes looses sync while stopped during backlight and then tries to catch on. See this thread about it.

Here is ETA 988.333 sheet if you're interested. Mechanical part is maybe identical to B79. Breitling aficionados, please don't laugh.

As far as I know, all the Breitling quartz movements are thermocomp (so-called "Superquartz").
I agree that the minute hand isn't automatically synchronized. I wrote carelessly when I said the movement ought to be able to keep the minute hand in line, I meant it ought to be clever enough to make sure the pulses kept being delivered on time, rather than to keep the digital and analogs synchronized. Sorry, sloppy wording.
Thanks for the string about the 6 seconds unsyncing...... that's interesting. I'm afraid if I had bought one, it would go back for a refund. I don't think that's acceptable. You buy a watch that has an accuracy spec of 15 seconds a year and it makes a 6 second error in one step....... not good enough. The Aerospace doesn't have an analog second hand, of course, so at least mine didn't have that disease, but it looks as if the ailment it does have could be analagous, affecting the minute hand instead of the second hand.
I'm not familiar with your watch....... does it have all the abilities the Aerospace has but uses buttons as well as the crown instead of the crown only? Or is it not trying to do everything all in one little box?
Your link to the 988.333 didn't seem to work...... it dumped me into something called "Rapidshare filehosting", which I've never heard of. I don't know if that was what you meant or what I was supposed to do with it if it was what you meant!
I'm going to climb onto the Breitling site and see if I can find a 988.333 so that I'll know what yours is. Is it maybe a Colt?

[eurocopter]

Sorry, I don't mean to create confusion. My ETA 988.352 is in my Tissot TXL7. There are few other watches using this movement. Certina DS Podium, Victorinox Swiss Army Chrono Classic XLS MT, Tissot PR50 Titanium Seven etc. Functions are the same as Breitling has, except there are 2 chrono modes. Add and Split (Ad0000, SP0000 instead of 000000), so u can measure split time if you need. There is also automatic preprogrammed calendar. This was missing from B75 and before, I think. And I don't understand why. Was it just due to different firmware, or the circuit board used wouldn't support it?
Here are pics I posted before in High-end Quartz forum.





I think that B75 and before is branded 988.352 (thermocompensated ETA)
If some Breitling experts know what kind of modifications Breitling do with these ETA movements I would appreciate the info. Is the new B79 backlight done by ETA or is this added by Breitling itself? And how is the backlight activated. I know how to operate B1/Airwolf, but never had new Aerospace in my hand. You press the crown in time mode?

As for the link, it's a PDF file, 2.4MB. Watchuseek upload failed on several attempts. I have no Idea why, since there is no size limit posted for PDF in upload window. Rapidshare is just site for hosting files, but when you're not familiar with it it's wise to be cautios.
You can grab it directly from ETA if you want.
From Product Range dropdown menu choose Flatline and from Caliber choose 988.333. It's under Technical Communication in two variants (different languages).
988.352 info is not vailable for general public I guess.

[artec]

Sorry, I don't mean to create confusion. My ETA 988.352 is in my Tissot TXL7. There are few other watches using this movement. Certina DS Podium, Victorinox Swiss Army Chrono Classic XLS MT, Tissot PR50 Titanium Seven etc. Functions are the same as Breitling has, except there are 2 chrono modes. Add and Split (Ad0000, SP0000 instead of 000000), so u can measure split time if you need. There is also automatic preprogrammed calendar. This was missing from B75 and before, I think. And I don't understand why. Was it just due to different firmware, or the circuit board used wouldn't support it?
Here are pics I posted before in High-end Quartz forum.





I think that B75 and before is branded 988.352 (thermocompensated ETA)
If some Breitling experts know what kind of modifications Breitling do with these ETA movements I would appreciate the info. Is the new B79 backlight done by ETA or is this added by Breitling itself? And how is the backlight activated. I know how to operate B1/Airwolf, but never had new Aerospace in my hand. You press the crown in time mode?

As for the link, it's a PDF file, 2.4MB. Watchuseek upload failed on several attempts. I have no Idea why, since there is no size limit posted for PDF in upload window. Rapidshare is just site for hosting files, but when you're not familiar with it it's wise to be cautios.
You can grab it directly from ETA if you want.
From Product Range dropdown menu choose Flatline and from Caliber choose 988.333. It's under Technical Communication in two variants (different languages).
988.352 info is not vailable for general public I guess.

No, to activate the backlight (which only illuminates the digital window, not the analog face) you give the crown a spin in either direction. Pressing the crown makes it do its minute repeat routine, hours (12-hour clock only), quarter hours, five minutes, one minute signals.

The two circuit boards you show are clearly different, though parts appear to be the same, but the watch faces might be copies of the same photo, yet they are different makes? Are the manufacturers parts of the same parent company?

We've strayed from Breitling's bad habits and appear to be having a little private discussion (interesting and educational though it is)........ so I'm assuming that no-one else has any ideas about what would be causing the stepping motor's sneeze, always assuming it was the motor.

Thanks for the help.

[eurocopter]

The two circuit boards you show are clearly different, though parts appear to be the same, but the watch faces might be copies of the same photo, yet they are different makes? Are the manufacturers parts of the same parent company?

352 is thermo-compensated, 333 is not. Both are made by ETA SA. For more info, have a look at ETA page on Wikipedia.