Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster! - Page 2
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  1. #11
    Member AWRosey's Avatar
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    Here is my 26,566,7xx transitional. Always searching for a set of original hands, dot over 90 bezel, and 145022-68ST caseback to restore it to original configuration.





    Alan
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  2. #12
    Member jikan ga nai's Avatar
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    Awesome thread - and a watch worthy of any grail list IHMO. Mine was acquired out of Japan in completely original condition and then went to Bienne for the full works. June 1969 production according to Omega museum.

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  3. #13
    Member Blaise's Avatar
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    It might only be me being dumb (which I very highly doubt, as my mum would always tell me "you're one smart boy" ) but is a watch with a non-raised logo dial is considered as transitional if all the other features (like dot-above-90 bezel, case back, cal 861 etc.) are present? Or is it already impossible to tell if the watch is untouched when it has a printed logo or if it has been "modified" during these roughly 40some years?

    95% of the transitional Speedies I see around here have raised logos, however Adam's (SpeedyAdam) and Pete's (Batt14) examples have the printed logos. I only ask this because I read it on another forum that according to a member - and I quote -

    "There are 3 recognised transitional models:
    stepped dial with applied logo & pre-moon caseback
    stepped dial with printed logo & pre-moon caseback
    stepped dial with printed logo & early "First Watch Worn on the Moon" caseback without Hippocampus"


    while the reply from another saying

    "a transitional model of anything is when is is changing from one version to another and has elements of both, ie in 1968, the ST 145.012 (cal321) with AML was changing to a ST 145.022 with white painted logo and (cal 861).
    This transitional model has elements of both models and is a ST145.022 but with AML"


    Enlighten me, please gents! Sorry for my ignorance...

    (hope the members of the other forum won't mind me posting their comments, it only serves educational purposes, noting more, nothing less)

  4. #14
    Member Spacefruit's Avatar
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    I can only say what I regard as a transitional, a definition that helps me define this reference into a sub group. (Because they are valued a little differently by the market). I know others think differently, which is one of the benefits of living in a free world.

    When I refer to a transitional speedmaster I am talking about the transition between references of 145.012 and 145.022. It has to have a metal logo, or else ergo, it isnt a transitional, it is simply an 861 145.022. Also the engraved case back that was placed on the 1970's watches did not herald a transition between references, so I do not refer to it as a transitional.

    Here is what I call a transitional, a 145.022-68 with a 26m serial. I found it in Argentina of all places.

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  5. #15
    Member joe band's Avatar
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    my opinion, FWIW, is that only stepped dial with applied logo & pre-moon caseback, are transitional as most often used.

    there were a myriad of changes to speedmasters along the way, though two were arguably the biggest. 1. the switch from straight lugged to bombe lugs. 2. the switch from the 321 movement to the 861. the significance of these changes may be of varying importance depending on your flavor of watch afficionatismo; the former is an obvious visual difference (and added value of crown guards) vs the latter internal change for speed/cost/ease of manufacturing and greater movement stability.

    there are transitional forms of speedies from the first switch with pre-pro dials and pro-dials seen on curved lug and straight lug watches respectively, but generally the transitional form most often referred to is the 1968- applied logo dial on an 861 movement. (never mind many were produced in early 1969)

    due to the parts bin effect at the assembly line, there were many traits that did not appear all at the same instant, leaving behind everything else. some will also refer to a speedy produced around the time of the 861/1861 switch that have a mix of characteristics from both as a transitional.

    so there were many that could be considered transitional, what do you consider it to mean?

    as to the second part of your question, how to tell what is original and what isn't on a 40+ yr old watch?? just consider that omega serviced watches can have dials, bezel, hands, etc changed as part of a "routine" service.... unless you are the original owner, good luck knowing.
    Last edited by joe band; April 2nd, 2013 at 18:48.

  6. #16
    Member jordangbj@aol.com's Avatar
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacefruit View Post
    I can only say what I regard as a transitional, a definition that helps me define this reference into a sub group. (Because they are valued a little differently by the market). I know others think differently, which is one of the benefits of living in a free world.

    When I refer to a transitional speedmaster I am talking about the transition between references of 145.012 and 145.022. It has to have a metal logo, or else ergo, it isnt a transitional, it is simply an 861 145.022. Also the engraved case back that was placed on the 1970's watches did not herald a transition between references, so I do not refer to it as a transitional.

    Here is what I call a transitional, a 145.022-68 with a 26m serial. I found it in Argentina of all places.

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    I couldn't agree more . too many people here are describing their bog-standard 145.022 speedmasters as "transitional".
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  7. #17
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    Hi Blaise,

    Sorry if I'm repeating members. I was typing this while others beat me to it.

    IMHO, the movement number, like a VIN on motorcycle frame, is "the watch". And while I'm 99% sure my watch originally came with a AML (applied metal Omega logo) dial, the dial was swapped at some point - circa 1980s. If my watch didn't have the dot over 90 bezel, the 145.022-68 ST back and the 26m movement number I might think it's an older movement in a newer watch.

    I've seen Speedmasters from the '60s with the luminous paint flaking off the dial (creating debris in the watch!) so I loosely predict this was the reason for its replacement. I love the look of the painted logo but surely miss the original dial. I could install a newer stepped dial with an AML but the Tritium is too important to me. Or a period correct dial when/if one ever shows itself. It will sell for big money because they're so rare/fragile and would return some watches to their original status. (The .321 dial doesn't fit the .861 movement.)

    It does seem that there are original, near perfect looking Transitionals with both styles of the large second hand, but most have the "fantail" contemporary hand. "Surely" 2655369X is original - a Transitional with a tapered second hand. There are also other bezels from this era that appear to be original because there were different bezel (and other parts) suppliers back in the day. The lack of the È or the dot over 90 doesn't mean it isn't original.

    There were a lot of inconsistencies back then. I still can't believe .861s were produced before the last of the .321s! Anything's possible. But basically, a "1968-69 .321/.861 Transitional" looks like a 145.012 but it's a 145.022. An .861 with a stepped dial. There could be exceptions to many details but that speaks for most of them. Of course anything can be put together, upgraded and/or serviced over the years. We just needed WUS in the 1960s...

    I want to know:

    1. What was the last .321 movement number
    2. What was the first .861 movement number
    3. What was the last stepped dial movement number
    4. What was the fist non-stepped dial movement number
    5. What movement number range were they using in July 1969 (27...)

    Best,
    Adam
    www.CecchiniMotorSports.com
    Last edited by SpeedyAdam; April 2nd, 2013 at 19:59.
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  8. #18
    Member Blaise's Avatar
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacefruit View Post
    When I refer to a transitional speedmaster I am talking about the transition between references of 145.012 and 145.022. It has to have a metal logo, or else ergo, it isnt a transitional, it is simply an 861 145.022. Also the engraved case back that was placed on the 1970's watches did not herald a transition between references, so I do not refer to it as a transitional.
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    My thoughts were pretty much the same. So what about the dot-over-90 bezel? Do we know for sure that these transitional Speedies were sold with those ones, or the new ones exclusively, meaning can a transitional have either, or it is impossible to tell by now?

    Beautiful watch you have there BTW!


    Quote Originally Posted by joe band View Post
    there are transitional forms of speedies from the first switch with pre-pro dials and pro-dials seen on curved lug and straight lug watches respectively, but generally the transitional form most often referred to is the 1968- applied logo dial on an 861 movement. (never mind many were produced in early 1969)

    due to the parts bin effect at the assembly line, there were many traits that did not appear all at the same instant, leaving behind everything else. some will also refer to a speedy produced around the time of the 861/1861 switch that have a mix of characteristics from both as a transitional.
    So what should be (or more precisely what was) the highest serial number that is know of coming from a transitional?

    Quote Originally Posted by joe band View Post
    as to the second part of your question, how to tell what is original and what isn't on a 40+ yr old watch?? just consider that omega serviced watches can have dials, bezel, hands, etc changed as part of a "routine" service.... unless you are the original owner, good luck knowing.
    Makes sense!


    Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts/knowledge, all who replied. It is greatly appreciated. I think I'm a step closer now knowing what a transitional should be when I decide to start the hunt for one (if you know any available, let me know )

  9. #19
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    Quote Originally Posted by jordangbj@aol.com View Post
    I couldn't agree more . too many people here are describing their bog-standard 145.022 speedmasters as "transitional".
    Really? Please explain. I don't think a dial replacement takes away from the fact that a watch is an .861 from 1968-69. Any Pre-Moon is far from "bog-standard".

    Cheers,
    Adam

  10. #20
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    But I agree with what's probably your bigger point: any "Transitional" has something from the last model but says it's the newer model. Which in this situation is the AML and/or the stepped dial. From what I can tell, every watch pictured in this thread is a .321/.861 Transitional. Some more modified than others.

    Cheers,
    Adam

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