Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster! - Page 3
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  1. #21
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    FWIW, I've seen three .321/.861 Transitionals with seemingly original stepped dials and painted logos. '68 & '69. And a Post-Moon with an original stepped dial with an AML. To boil it down, I think the stepped dial & the .861 movement define the .321/.861 Transitional.

    Best,
    Adam

  2. #22
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedyAdam View Post
    Really? Please explain. I don't think a dial replacement takes away from the fact that a watch is an .861 from 1968-69. Any Pre-Moon is far from "bog-standard".

    Cheers,
    Adam
    Adam,

    First, I thoroughly enjoy your posts. I found your original 1st Transitional post very enlightening. I'm glad to see you are keeping up with your quest to document these wonderful pieces. I always look forward to your updates and I wish they would happen more often.

    Pardon my ignorance but what is "bog-standard" referring to?
    Last edited by flyinghell34; April 2nd, 2013 at 21:53.

  3. #23
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    Bog-standard = ordinary. Probably in reference to the 3 million 145.022s made.

    Approximate Speedmaster Production:

    1957 - 1958: CK 2915 --------------------- 125,000
    1959 - 1962: CK 2998 --------------------- 218,000
    1962 - 1966: ST 105.003 ------------------ 125,000
    1963 - 1966: ST 31000 -------------------- 105,000
    1963 - 1966: ST 105.012 ------------------ 125,000
    1966 - 1968: ST 145.003 ------------------ 30,000
    1966: ST 145.012 -------------------------- 145,000
    1968 - 1969: ST 145.022-68 --------------- 20,000

    1969 - 1970: ST 145.022-69 --------------- 56,000
    1970 - 1997: ST 145.022 ------------------- 3,000,000
    1997 - 2000: ST 145.022 (c.1861) --------- 394,000
    2000 - 2012: all references ---------------- 1,350,000

    PRE-PROFESSIONAL: ------------------------ 624,000
    PRE-MOON: ---------------------------------- 165,000
    POST-MOON: --------------------------------- 4,830,000

    Total 1957 - 2012: --------------------------- 5,619,000

    Best,
    Adam
    Cecchini MotorSports
    Last edited by SpeedyAdam; April 2nd, 2013 at 22:35.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedyAdam View Post
    Bog-standard = ordinary. Probably in reference to the 3 million 145.022s made.

    Approximate Speedmaster Production:

    1957 - 1958: CK 2915 --------------------- 125,000
    1959 - 1962: CK 2998 --------------------- 218,000
    1962 - 1966: ST 105.003 ------------------ 125,000
    1963 - 1966: ST 31000 -------------------- 105,000
    1963 - 1966: ST 105.012 ------------------ 125,000
    1966 - 1968: ST 145.003 ------------------ 30,000
    1966: ST 145.012 -------------------------- 145,000
    1968 - 1969: ST 145.022-68 --------------- 20,000

    1969 - 1970: ST 145.022-69 --------------- 56,000
    1970 - 1997: ST 145.022 ------------------- 3,000,000
    1997 - 2000: ST 145.022 (c.1861) --------- 394,000
    2000 - 2012: all references ---------------- 1,350,000

    PRE-PROFESSIONAL: ------------------------ 624,000
    PRE-MOON: ---------------------------------- 165,000
    POST-MOON: --------------------------------- 4,830,000

    Total 1957 - 2012: --------------------------- 5,619,000

    Best,
    Adam
    Cecchini MotorSports

    Thank you Adam for this useful list. May I ask the source?
    i think you may have opened another discussion re "pre pro " ha ha.
    That is another can of omega worms to be discovered.
    i might add that your info per post ratio is commendably high, welcome !

  5. #25
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    Very interesting thread. I would also like to know the source of some if this. Thanks for posting.

  6. #26
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    I just purchased a transitional with a 27M serial number. Any ideas on how many of these were produced??

  7. #27
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    Sources? About as good as Wikipedia, lol. Which is as good as any incorrect published book. Most credit should go to the late, great Chuck Maddox, this forum (there are ladies & gentlemen on this forum that have lived the history of these watches and a person can search for hours on end), Omega books, eBay and the internet in general. I've just organized it to satisfy my obsessive curiosity on what Omega was doing with their Speedmaster in 1968-69.

    I believe I found the production numbers here on this forum. An old post. Couldn't tell you where. Someone with some credentials cleared the air. And I'm sure I've edited that list when I've found information that I feels holds more water. I didn't build Speedmasters in 1968 so for all I know everything I know is wrong. But I doubt it. Like many enthusiasts I just want the truth.

    I researched the story of 265551XX so deep I would Google different movement numbers with different amounts of Xs in foreign languages. Study for days. An answer would lead to 10 questions. Some guy in Japan would post a pic that was part of a clue. An ad in France would give another clue. I have a several page email to myself that I update when something new comes to surface but I've followed all leads my imagination can think of. If something was consistent with what I had I moved on.


    I've collected dozens of photos of .321/.861 Transitionals; put serial numbers in order to compare details. I watch eBay (almost ignoring the seller's description) and study photos to watch for trends. Of course, bitsas are everywhere. I assume a watch is a bitsa until things start telling a story. And I really don't listen much if a movement number isn't mentioned or pictured. There sure are a lot of "Pre-Moons" made in the 1970s...


    I'll admit to pretty loose accuracy and why I don't mind if anyone edits me if something else makes more sense. I encourage it. If we all come together maybe we can find the truth. Note that I only post what I feel is a fact. (Funny sentence that one.) Either by an unbiased owner and/or by photos. For example, I'm selective in my movement number list because that info is all that I'm sure of. Nothing more. A no-assumption rule.

    I fell into buying 265551XX. I shouldn't have spent the money but I couldn't pass it up at the price I paid. I just thought it was a beat up, bog-standard Pro. Happy as clam. After opening it and seeing a movement number from 1968 I had to know the whole story which meant knowing watches before it and after it.


    How I spent hundreds of hours researching 2 years of Speedmasters is...embarrassing. But reconstructing the history has been incredibly exciting and satisfying. In recent months I've turned my eBay searches down and check into WUS once in awhile to see if there's any new .321/.861 Transitional info.

    Hope the photos, details and movement numbers keep coming! Thanks for the kind words, everyone!

    Cheers,
    Adam
    www.CecchiniMotorSports.com

    Last edited by SpeedyAdam; April 3rd, 2013 at 07:23.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    Quote Originally Posted by RockZilla View Post
    I just purchased a transitional with a 27M serial number. Any ideas on how many of these were produced??
    One million? :)

    Let's see, that's maybe a 145.022-69, so ~56,000. Got pic? More of the movement number?

    Cheers,
    Adam
    Last edited by SpeedyAdam; April 3rd, 2013 at 07:33.

  9. #29
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    Adam (and all the other members), thanks a lot for replying guys. I never thought I'd open up the can of worms when I asked about transitionals. Now having read all these - and other threads and replies - I think we can all agree to disagree. While the majority will look at a transitional with an applied logo, steeped dial, dot-above-90 bezel etc. it is really uncertain how many types of watches were produced by Omega in that specific era. Especially around and after the Moon landing. It's too bad we don't have the connections with Omega to ask anybody there (used to correspond with Mr John Diethelm, however he does not seem to answer any emails as of lately...) so until we can find a good, reliable source from the mother company it is really only us to debate without certainty...

  10. #30
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    Re: Lets see your Transitional 861 Speedmaster!

    here's a couple of pics of mine.
    #1 is my daily wear, 26,559XXX but has a later replacement dial. i actually like the droopy r better, but have looked for years to get a replacement, applied logo dial.

    i bought it in 2008, lacking knowledge, to fly on the vomit comet. A modified 727 that flies parabolas, creating zero g for 25 seconds or so at a time, used by nasa to train the astronauts. a company sponsors teachers to fly for free to excite their students. It flew, and i blew (btw weightless puke is yucky).
    Attachment 1033399

    #2 is 27,3XXXXX and i believe all original.
    Attachment 1033396
    it's on a 1171 bracelet. i first found it a bit tinny, but once i crimped the endpieces a bit, they stopped rattling. i actually purchased #2, to steal they dial, but found it was too nice to do that... and i paid less for this one than #1.
    Attached Images Attached Images



    Last edited by joe band; April 3rd, 2013 at 17:12. Reason: i fouled up pic location. ???

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