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Seiko Kinetics - converting to regular quartz - using regular non-rechargeable batteries

29K views 45 replies 27 participants last post by  jeffcranmer.jc 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi there!

I'm not really sure if I should post this here or in the technical section, but since I had this same question and I'm guessing others out there may have it too, I reckon it has a bit more visibility here.

As with many others, I own a couple Seiko Kinetics. 5M42, 5J22, 7L22. And as usual with these watches, it's pretty much impossible to keep them charged with the occasional wrist time. Indeed I could use a winder but the regular ones don't work very well with Kinetics without some modifications and I simply didn't even bother to go through with finding one electric toothbrush (or similar) charger to keep them topped up through induction (the original charger is pretty much impossible to find for a decent price nowadays).

Somewhere in the past googling about something else I found a thread on WUS catacombs about someone having replaced the rechargeable batteries with regular ones and having the watches working without a glitch. Unfortunately information was scarce or dispersed through the replies and there wasn't a fool proof walk-through.

That lingered on my thoughts for a while and after having yet one more rechargeable battery dying way too soon due to low usage and constant low charge I decided to give it a try.

Indeed, I could simply choose other non Kinetic watches but it happens that I quite like the SKH29X models.

The 5M42s commonly use the TC920S rechargeable batteries. 9.5x2mm 1.5v. Following some of the threads recommendations I bought a SR920W/V370 non-rechargeable battery and installed it on one of my watches. That was last November. Today I just installed another one on a different one and hes ticking away happily. The power indicator even works normally and shows the battery power.

Following this experience I can't see why it cannot be replicated with different movements. You just have to take into consideration voltage and sizes. If all fit the bill, the watch should work without any issues. I'll have to find out what batteries to use with the 5J22 and the 7L22 but I'll most certainly be replacing the re-chargeable batteries for regular ones.

I'll assume someone attempting to do this is aware of how to replace a battery on these watches, hence why I haven't posted photos.

For the "hack" to work, you have to have the metallic tab that comes with the rechargeable batteries. Pry it off the one you are removing for instance. Re-assembly is just like the normal procedure, just a bit more fiddly cause you'll have to put the metallic tab from the older rechargeable battery on top of the new non-rechargeable battery. But don't worry. After assembling all the parts with the screws in place it doesn't go anywhere.

It is extremely important to remove the rotor to prevent the watch from charging the non-rechargeable battery. Trying to re-install the rotor screw to have the hole covered is rather hard without the rotor in place. So if you don't have a see-through case back I wouldn't bother.

Following these recommendations, your watches should work just fine. If you're willing to do this, do it under your own responsibility though as this is converting the watches to a way of operation they weren't apparently designed to.

I'll be updating the thread with the battery durations as with some of the posterior conversions I'll be doing since this is a subject with pretty much no information available on Google.

Hope it helps someone!

You may notice there are SR920W and SR920SW batteries, respectively V370 and V371 in a different naming standard. That has to do with preferred usage. The S stands for low drain. From the info I garnered it's preferable to use the non S batteries for a little longer battery life. How long I cannot yet say.
 
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#3 ·
Someone already did this with his solar G-shock watch in the past.

Like you said, it's important to disconnect the charging source to the battery.

The module doesn't really care about what type of battery you are using. It keeps working as long as there is electrical power, for example a watch repair person could use an external source of power to make the watch run without the battery.



Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk
 
#5 · (Edited)
I went through every possible resource on the internet on Seiko kinetics. Most of them warned about recharge issues. Of course by then the challenge was so tempting I had to buy one. So I got the SUN 043, and went through a couple of weeks trying desperately to get enough exercise to take the indicator to full charge. I also got a Braun toothbrush charger. The feeling of achievement when the damn indicator swung to the 30 sec. mark is indescribable. It's been three months since, and a regular half-hour walk every day is all it needs to stay fully charged. Of course, one kinetic is enough for me. I've also lost 4 kg! Why would you not want to have the kinetic experience?
 
#6 ·
It's not about not wanting to have the Kinetic experience. If you own several Kinetic watches, especially some older models that had the newer high capacity batteries fitted, keeping them decently charged is pretty much impossible as long as you own several other watches. You either have to have the proper Seiko charger, a toothbrush or similar charger and fiddle with it trying to find the weird exact position for the watch to receive a charge or buy a couple modded winders. And even then you have to keep an eye out for battery levels as these new ones absolutely hate to be left with a low level charge.

Notice that I've made this to two 5M42's for now. The 5J22 doesn't pose that much of a trouble for instance. It's an Auto-Relay and goes to sleep saving a lot more battery.

I'm all in for keeping things original. But in the end, with the 5M42's, what caught my eye was their design, and even though the rotor noise is missing now, at least I can give them a lot more wrist time without having to worry about power levels, battery wear, wasting time shaking them, worrying about excess wear to the rotor bearings, etc...
 
#7 ·
I fitted a size 920 silver oxide cell to one of my 5M62 watches over a year ago. It still indicates full charge. I found that the generator had to be briefly spun to stop the movement doing 2 second jumps.
After removing the kinetic rotor, I fitted a washer and the screw back to the rotor shaft so that I can spin it with a screwdriver.

 
#9 · (Edited)
It could be done by turning the rotor, then removing it. Because I wanted to leave the gear attached to the rotor shaft, I added a washer before refitting the rotor retaining screw. This allows me to spin the generator gear train by turning the rotor retaining screw with the screw driver.
I realize that many types of movements do the 2 second jumps to indicate low cell voltage. I guess that the IC in the 5M62 needs to see some generator output to cancel the 2 second jumps.
 
#11 ·
great to hear feedback re: battery life in this use case. that was the last piece of information i haven't ben able to find. will think hard about trying this with my bfk. i enjoyed the kinetic life but i couldn't give kinetics enough wrist time to keep them going. gave one bfk to my brother and now have only one, which still doesn't rotate through frequently enough to stay decently charged. having a grab and go bfk is appealing...
 
#12 ·
I've thought about this, as I'm getting tired of them not staying charged, even with replacement rechargeable batteries. The kinetics are pointless now, since they all need new cells after a few years, and changing a battery plus removing all the stupid hardware for recharging would make them so much better.
 
#13 ·
Is this a failed technology? At least with Spring Drive the watch can sit uncharged for indefinite periods of time with no degradation of the electronic components. Sounds like Spring Drive is the logical replacement for Kinetic?

The kinetics are pointless now, since they all need new cells after a few years
 
#19 · (Edited)
People waste money on exclusivity with no value added all the time. They don't know any better is all. Their money. Uninformed public.
You are trolling. Who cares about spring drive which makes up 0.0001% of all watch sales. The subject is Kinetic drive and my argument buttresses the existence of this thread. What is the OP trying to accomplish? Regress a Kinetic drive into an ordinary quartz watch. Why? Because an ordinary quartz watch is better than a Kinetic and better than a spring drive even though its more ordinary. Why isn't Kinetic or Spring drive more ubiquitous aka ordinary? Where is the value? There isn't any...or its cost/benefit doesn't make the grade. Because it costs more and isn't as practical. So people waste their money on non practical endeavors all the time which is OK. A Ferrari isn't as practical as a Toyota. But, a Ferrari...or at least most Ferrari's will beat a Toyota around a race track. A Ferrari has a purpose. A Kinetic or Spring Drive is more a novelty than purposeful. It is pure marketing in other words. Complexity for exclusivity to market a niche to create sales. All the engineers who created Kinetic and Spring Drive at Seiko got big bonuses for creating a product that is 'exclusive' which created more profit for Seiko. So that is the purpose of Kinetic and Spring Drive. Profit. Meanwhile, the public who owns several watches grapple with a Kinetic losing its charge when not being worn. How do they overcome this deficiency which is the core of the Kinetic movement? Answer is to regress the watch to what is more efficient. A basic quartz movement and why they are so popular. There is even an argument that a basic battery quartz watch is preferred to a solar watch. I own both and honestly am on the fence about solar watches. I like them but certainly no better than a quartz watch with a battery like my Seiko Tuna for example.
 
#21 ·
To each his own, or as the Marquis de Sade put it so eloquently, "different strokes for different folks". I can understand the OP's dismay with keeping his Kinetic charged, I felt the same in the long three weeks that it took for me to hit full charge on my SUN043. Then you reach there - and you realise why people climb Everest! Because it's there, and it's a challenge. No shame in giving up, but please don't say the mountain is not meant to be climbed by anyone. Kinetic sales speak for themselves!
 
#22 ·
I feel i have to add my voice to this. I only own 1 Kinetic, the PADI. I wear it everyday and while i love the look and GMT function owning it is just a nuisance. I would much prefer if Seiko just went to solar for their quartz and kept their mechanical's.

The biggest problems are stated above. Keeping them charged up. My 2 solar watches barely get used now.

If i could afford a spring drive i would. Oh and i won't be buying anymore Kinetics.

Kill the Kinetics. Long live solar.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Today I changed the rechargeable battery out of my sun043 for a regular sr920w battery. Tired of trying to find something to charge it. Took some effort to line up the tab peeled off the old battery but I got it in and working. Charge indicator only shows the five second indicator, I was expecting it to show 30. Hopefully this is just a voltage variation, and it just keeps running. I'll update the thread when it dies, and if I need to find another solution. It would be nice if a battery shop would put the tabs on these batteries with the tiny welds from the factory. I assume the watch can't draw that much more power than a standard quartz movement, so if I can get a few years out of each battery I'll be happy.
I've decided to agree that kinetic is pointless. I'd rather have a standard battery, lower cost on the watch, and a five year battery life. They could go all solar as well, but it seems like they made this much more complicated than it needed to be.
 
#26 · (Edited)
Did you check the battery voltage before installing it?

Something isn't right. The battery indicator should work just like it would for the rechargeable battery. It's function is controled by the IC, which checks the battery voltage in order to display the charge level.

I must confess I'm really interested to know if your battery had some age to it and has lost capacity or if the watch has some kind of different behavior.

Did you install the mylar insulator? Are you absolutely sure the batery isn't shorting to anything inside the watch?

If it is indeed a brand new battery (we have to take into account some do sit for a long time on shelves before being sold) your watch should give you the 30s full charge.

I've made a habit of testing batteries before fitting them precisely because more than a couple times the ones installed weren't anywhere near full capacity. And fiddling with watches is time consuming as is. So anything I can do to avoid doing the job twice, I do.

Having said this, and taking into account xavier60 report on his procedure (1st page). What was your charge level before fitting the new battery? Was it also 5 seconds or was the watch fully discharged?
 
#27 ·
Battery was a brand new energizer, measured 1.55v exactly with my fluke dmm, carefully installed with the insulator. Before installing the battery the rechargeable was completely dead. It may be a 5m85 difference, as I posted in another thread Seiko claims there is a difference in the cell required, using the panasonic mt920 not the maxell tc920s. I'm currently testing to see how long the watch will run with this cell. After that, I may try another sr920 or something else.
 
#29 · (Edited)
You hand't mentioned it was a 5M85.

There isn't much info about it around. From what I managed to find it seems to be one of those calibers possibly made by Epson, since it appears interleaved with the YT5X ones.

And indeed for the YT57/58 and 5M8X calibers the Panasonic battery seems to be the recommended one. However for the 5M4x's both batteries appear to be interchangeable. Puzzling.

I've been looking at their specs and right of the bat theres a huge difference in nominal capacity. 3.5mAh for the Maxxel TC920S and 5mAh for the Panasonic MT920. Unfortunately I haven't got the slightest cue if Seiko chose these two batteries taking into account this difference or if it is something negligible.

For further elations a look at a technical manual would be needed to check what would be the drain values for your caliber. Unfortunately I can't seem to find one anywhere.

But, the SR920W battery has 39mAh hour. That on itself should be more than enough.

If you're absolutely sure you've done everything correctly, your case is indeed odd. I'm going to be curious about what happens with a different battery.

Has your watch been stopped for a long time? Only thing I can imagine right now is the movement being a bit gunked up and the consumption values being through the roof. That would explain a fast discharge, but it still doesn't explain the low capacity right after changing the battery.

You used a non slow drain battery, 370 model?
___________________________

Got to do an edit and paste this here. Doing some searches I've found this on an online battery shop.

Please do not use a battery tester or volt ohm meter as these very low volt cells can be ruined by testing. Please do not handle with your fingers as static electricity, body oil and contaminants can ruin the cell.
I don't have a background in electrical stuff and I haven't been able, up until this moment, to find anything corroborating these affirmations. However I do know someone who will be able to answer if this is indeed correct or just a sales safeguard. I'll ask and share.
 
#30 ·
I don't have a background in electrical stuff and I haven't been able, up until this moment, to find anything corroborating these affirmations. However I do know someone who will be able to answer if this is indeed correct or just a sales safeguard. I'll ask and share.[/QUOTE]

If you use an old fashioned mechanical voltmeter to test a watch battery it will subject the battery to a current drain which is 200 times the current typically drawn by a quartz movement!
A cheap battery tester may well have a MUCH higher drain than this, and one which uses a little lamp will empty a watch battery in a very short time.
A good quality Digital Voltmeter (aka multimeter) on the other hand will only drain the battery at about the same rate as a watch movement.

As to the physical handling precautions, they are good practice, nothing more. If you are working on a valuable piece, or are dextrous enough to use NON CONDUCTING tweezers and gloves then do so, if not, no worries.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Great thread everyone!

I have spent some time looking for this information :)

I have an early 2000s Kinetic Titanium which my wife bought new for me way back then and it has been more reliable than clockwork until recently. It was one of only two watches that I used for all of that time, the others were various cheap as possible quartz watches I wore to work in case I had do do anything physical, the Kinetic went back on as soon as I got home. I had the capacitor changed about six years ago because I was beginning to feel that the "whizz to 30 secs" test was starting to look slow! At £40 UK, I probably shouldn't have bothered.

Fast forward to last year and it just stopped, no second hand movement, no charge test movement, NOTHING, the charging rotor sounded odd and it seemed to be sticking!
Off to my local, long established watch repairer, and "sorry sir, there's nothing we can do with it, no parts are available"

So, I found this Forum and eventually, this thread ;-) Also many about induction charging Kinetics. I have a spare tooth brush charger, after 30 seconds on it, the watch started the two step and after a few minutes single seconds, so I knew that the basic movement was OK. It's taken a lot of experimentation but the charge is now up to the 10 secs mark. However it really is quite a faff, so not really the answer.

I took a deep breath and the back off the watch, found that the charge rotor gear wheel was no longer properly meshing with it's pinion, I assume that the pinion drives a tiny generator. As suggested here I have removed the rotor and gear wheel. Now waiting for a suitable Silver Oxide cell to arrive, meanwhile the Seiko is sitting on the Braun charger charging away very slowly :)

So there it is, I love my Kinetic BUT using a very mechanical means to charge a capacitor or rechargeable battery seems to me to be a rather poor answer to a question that nobody was asking. Even ignoring the mechanical failure of mine, two visits to the repairer for a new cell at £40 each plus a week out of use both times is not a good deal compared with a Silver Oxide, while I wait 10 minutes, every few years, at about £4 a time.

Thank you all very much for the incredibly useful information, my treasured Seiko will be back on my wrist soon.
 
#32 ·
IMPORTANT UPDATE :)

The new silver Oxide cell arrived this morning, I have fitted it, VERY fiddly compared with how easy changing the cell is on a standard quartz watch, however IT ONLY WORKS!!!!!

Now getting full charge indicated when the button is pressed, as I would expect.

As someone who posted earlier said, it started with the 2 step shuffle, but a few seconds on my Braun charger changed that, and it is running well.

Thank you all, I'm very pleased, couldn't have done it without you ;-)
 
#37 · (Edited)
I'm not an electrical engineer neither an expert on batteries however I'm inclined to say that the heat build up isn't the issue at hand but rather the fact that the charging circuit will be trying to input power to a chemical battery that wasn't designed to take charge.

If that doesn't end up well with typical A type batteries, it might not end up with a watch battery too.

The most tedious part of this conversion is removing the tacked on plate off the original battery. I've been thinking that instead of prying it off, next time I might use a miniature drill bit to loosen each tack weld. This might keep it from getting somewhat bent up while removing it. (I'm open to other suggestions)
I've found a x-acto knife to work just fine to remove the tab. Just a little wiggling and pressure and the tacked points give out without damaging or bending the tab.

The silver oxide cell that I fitted to the first 5M62 lasted about 3 years. It's such a fiddly job, I suspect that I had momentarily short circuited the cell, reducing its life.
To make the job easier the next time, I have adhered the red insulating film to the steel retainer plate and bent inward the plate's springy case ground protrusion. The case is also grounded elsewhere.
I feel that a properly handled cell should last about 4 years, not bad considering that the original rechargeable cells wore out in 7 years for me.

BTW, the discharged Energizer cell had not leaked.
This oddity is possibly worth mentioning. After the cell is first fitted and the movement is still doing 2 second jumps, the cell appears to measure about 150mV low when measured between its negative terminal and the movement's ground. The expected full voltage is measured after the generator is momentarily spun, restoring the movement to normal 1 second steps. Not all movements might behave the same way.
And for a due update on my initial post.

The watch that had the mod performed and sparked me to post about it, worked until somewhere mid May 2020.

Three years, much in line with xavier60 post. However I don't think I have short circuited the cell. Since it was the first time I was doing it I did it with all the extra care I could muster. Getting sure to avoid any undesired contact.

I can't be precise about dates because I don't recall the date I replaced the battery, I just know it was a couple days before the 2017 16th of May. And the last time I say him ticking away was somewhere around mid last month.

Since 2017 I learned a lot more about watches and Kinetics in particular. Regarding batteries: if with a rechargeable battery it's life can be greatly impacted by the overall movement condition (dry lubricants, dry greases, dirt, excess friction) it should be a sound conclusion that even with a non-rechargeable battery the same should happen.

So if you replace your rechargeable battery for a non rechargeable and it had an abnormal short life, excluding the possibility of a lower nominal voltage from a long shelf-life for instance, you should maybe try to have the watch drain checked. There are technical guides available out there with info about what the expected values should be and measuring points. However the procedure is rather minute and apparently requires some specialized tools. I say apparently because I haven't tried it myself nor have I found any information about doing it with some more common tools. I'll cross that bridge when I get, if I get, there.

Maybe xavier60 could chime in on how he did it. It's out of my abilities and knowledge for now.
 
#34 ·
After reading this post I decided to try the OP’s suggestion for this conversion. I am happy to say that it worked perfectly. I am beside myself. I have to admit I was somewhat skeptical at first, but after finishing I was pleasantly surprised to say the least. I did exactly as instructed. Btw, I used an SR920SW (371) battery for my conversion. It’s all I had on hand for the moment. The most tedious part of this conversion is removing the tacked on plate off the original battery. I’ve been thinking that instead of prying it off, next time I might use a miniature drill bit to loosen each tack weld. This might keep it from getting somewhat bent up while removing it. (I’m open to other suggestions)

Something else I’ve thought about. Someone with enough money could possibly make a conversion kit utilizing the stamped plate tacked to a standard silver oxide battery.
My first conversion was on my beater SKA367 yellow BFK. I used it as a test case. Next in line are my 4 kinetic GMT Tunas.
And also my other 4 BFK’s, Black, Pepsi, Orange, and second Yellow.
A million thanks to the OP for this unbelievable workaround!!
 
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