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  1. #21
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    Re: A SHORT HISTORY OF MARTEL WATCH CO and ZENITH CHRONOGRAPHS

    Quote Originally Posted by John Chris View Post

    Being a detail kind of guy, I reviewed the Charles Vermot video carefully and compared the shot of the Martel manufacture with Lou's photo of the 'new' Universal factory in Les Ponts de Martel. There is no doubt whatever in my mind that they are one and the same building (the details of # of panes of glass in outlying windows as compared to central windows, etc. are a dead giveaway). The question remains, how did that factory come to change hands? Did Universal build it to expand its chronograph production, then decide it was too much capital, sell it to Martel and sub-contract its chronograph production? Or was it always a Martel facility that bore the Universal name until its production ceased being almost entirely for Universal? (Just as the Aegler facility in Biel bore the name Rolex long before it was owned by Rolex.) Over to youse guys!

    Chris
    Yes I also see it now, it is the same building. That is also more logical than a big additional building. That must have been in the Rue de l'Industrie then.

    I would conclude that the older Martel facility was replaced by a new building in 1941, which then got the name of Universal on the facade. Probably Universal owned a part of the Martel stock and chose to have their own name on the building for promotional reasons. Apparently later Martel became wholly independent again and had its own name placed on the building.

    Zenith then bought the entire stock of Martel ca. 1958. The independent stock corporation Martel Watch co S.A. ceased to exist.

    Still Zenith never had the Martel name removed from the building in Les-Ponts-de-Martel, although it was their property and it was the place where they produced all the chronographs, including the El Primero. So Zenith did the opposite from what Universal had done : although in 1941 Martel was still a separate entity, Universal put their name on the building; Zenith on the contrary, although they fully owned Martel, let the name Martel be there.
    Last edited by sempervivens; March 11th, 2012 at 22:15.
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  2. #22
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    Re: A SHORT HISTORY OF MARTEL WATCH CO and ZENITH CHRONOGRAPHS

    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    Yes but it is a logical presumption. Since Universal always used Martel chronographs, this cooperation probably started as early as 1917. I agree there is no 100 % proof here. But Martel was there, they were chronograph specialists, they had a 17 lignes wristwatch chronograph, it probably was that which Universal used.
    Well, I don't think it's quite so self-evident, but it is certainly possible
    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    I'm no expert, but it seems anyway there is not so much knowledge around about the earliest wristwatch chronographs.
    Clearly - a very confused picture
    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    Also about Valjoux, Venus, and Landeron I would say there is relatively little that we know, considering they are responsible for so many chronographs.
    Well, the point is we know that the movements exist. They are named according to the appellation of the ebaucheurs - but no Martel movements until the 1950s
    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    Universal on the contrary seems to have reached an early exclusivity agreement with Martel.
    Or Universal just farmed out production of its own ebauches to Martel (again assuming a relationship there). Or Martel was a wholly-owned subsidiary. Or there was no relationship with Martel until later. That's the point of the thread, I think. We really don't know the nature of the relationship
    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    Universal has IMO some right to call it their own in-house movement, since they had the exclusivity and helped developing it by their investments (with the help of Zenith also).
    More speculation presented as fact. All of that remains to be shown, including the part about Zenith helping. The 1941 UG works at PdM was apparently built in large part to satisfy demand from Zenith, implying that Zenith was simply a client - no suggestion of investment before delivery of goods. The UG records appear to show that they supplied completed watches to Zenith, and the Zenith watches with UG calibers have case and reference numbers on them in line with UG convention, not Zenith. So Zenith and UG invest, and UG becomes the exclusive owner of the movement, and Zenith a paying customer? Doesn't make sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    Universal however never concealed they got the chronographs from Martel. This is part of general knowledge after all. It seems to me that many people in the watch world already know or have heard that the Universal Geneve chronograph movements came from Martel!
    Yes, Wikipedia says so. Good golly, all of this good back and forth and you suddenly declare that the matter under consideration is general knowledge? Sala, Berthoud & Rivolta appear not to be in the know, nor Lang & Mies. Or do you mean that they came from the place, Martel?
    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    It is clear from this quotation that we should understand that "when all manufacturing operations were concentrated in Geneva", this means : all except the chronographs (which were being made in Les Ponts-de-Martel).
    well, not exactly clear, but I see what you mean - something must have remained in PdM to demolish and replace with the state-of-the-art works in 1941.
    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    The new Universal building was then apparently an additional production centre where Universal could produce more chronographs, however still in cooperation with Martel.
    I don't see how it follows that there was another production center, nor the cooperation with Martel.
    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    Is the addres of that building mentioned?
    Unfortunately not, nor does GoogleMaps have a streetview of PdM so we can tool around and find it. There is an Alimentation Proxi at 26 Grand Rue....Anyone want to make a grocery run to PdM and find out what is what?
    Quote Originally Posted by John Chris View Post
    Being a detail kind of guy, I reviewed the Charles Vermot video carefully and compared the shot of the Martel manufacture with Lou's photo of the 'new' Universal factory in Les Ponts de Martel. There is no doubt whatever in my mind that they are one and the same building (the details of # of panes of glass in outlying windows as compared to central windows, etc. are a dead giveaway). The question remains, how did that factory come to change hands? Did Universal build it to expand its chronograph production, then decide it was too much capital, sell it to Martel and sub-contract its chronograph production? Or was it always a Martel facility that bore the Universal name until its production ceased being almost entirely for Universal? (Just as the Aegler facility in Biel bore the name Rolex long before it was owned by Rolex.) Over to youse guys!Chris
    Yes, agree
    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    Still Zenith never had the Martel name removed from the building in Les-Ponts-de-Martel, although it was their property and it was the place where they produced all the chronographs, including the El Primero. So Zenith did the opposite from what Universal had done : although in 1941 Martel was still a separate entity, Universal put their name on the building; Zenith on the contrary, although they fully owned Martel, let the name Martel be there.
    One might equally - or even more logically - conclude that Zenith and Universal were consistent - both left the Martel name on the building to commemorate an enterprise they had absorbed. Regardless, one does not know one way or the other. All of this awaits some kind of documentary evidence. As I see it, what we know is that there was a Martel SA in PdM, established in 1911. It became somehow associated with UG at the latest sometime in the 1950s, when it shared the cal 291 and the UG cal 285/Martel 749, and was sold to Zenith in 1959-60, bringing the 749 and a rotor automatic to Zenith. We also know that Zenith acquired the Universal Geneve factory built in 1941, very likely at the same time and as part of the same transaction.

    I'll also point out something we haven't considered yet - that UG started to use Valjoux 72 engines for its Compax line around the time of the sale of the PdM plant, although the Tri-Compaxes continued to be made with UG calibers into the late 1960s and early 1970s. Thus, the PdM facility does not appear to have been the only site of manufacture of UG chronograph calibers.

    We are left to explain why a building with Universal across the front represented the physical manifestation of Martel SA (which rather makes it look to me like UG was holding the leash at this point) and to understand the relationship between Martel and UG before 1941.
    Last edited by LouS; March 11th, 2012 at 21:52.

  3. #23
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    Re: A SHORT HISTORY OF MARTEL WATCH CO and ZENITH CHRONOGRAPHS

    Quote Originally Posted by LouS View Post
    no Martel movements until the 1950s.
    No Martel movement names until the 1950's. The internal designation which Martel used for its chronograph caliber(s) is not as well known as the UG and Zenith names and numbers.

    And yet, the Martel caliber number is known. You have said it, it is Martel caliber 749 - at least in the 1950's it was called like that.
    We don't know yet what caliber designation they used in the 1930's. If not already cal. 749, it was probably something similar.

    Martel was an anonymous stock corporation since 1911.

    They were quite active in the 1920's, as demonstrated by Nicola with numerous documents.

    Martel was an ébaucher, specialised in the creation and production of watch movements, and one of their speciality's were chronographs. these are all plain facts.

    In 1929 came about a capital raise of 50 % from 100 to 150 thousand swiss franks. Martel nearly doubled in size. Fact.

    The nature of an anonymous stock corporation is such that we cannot find out who owned that stock and where the investment came from. We can only presume. It is impossible to prove anything in this field.

    It seems quite likely to me that in 1929-30 it was Universal who paid for that capital raise of the Martel company, which then allowed UG a controlling participation of 30 % of the Martel company.

    This then allowed Martel Watch co to (further) develop the first wristwatch chronograph with two pushers for Universal watch co.

    Next Universal shared it (only) with Zenith. Why did they share it with Zenith ? To share the cost of the investments, there can hardly be another plausible reason. Zenith paid to have access to the first chronograph caliber with two pushers : in this way Zenith took part in the investments needed for a chronograph movement, which was continuously further developed by Martel in that context, from 1932 until 1944, from the first double pusher chronograph until the Tricompax.

    Due to the high demand for the chronographs, in 1941 Martel got a new building on their old site. The investment was again (presumably) paid for by Universal and it was promoted as if the building was their own. Universal however (presumably) possessed only a third of the Martel stock, so technically they only owned part of (the company who owned) the building.

    For Martel Universal became their only client from ca. 1930 onwards until an unknown date around 1950.

    Zenith in this period (1932-1950) (presumably) got the chronographs through Universal, who (presumably) first cased the chronographs.

    We really don't know the nature of the relationship...
    The relationships simply are, that Martel and Universal Genève were independent stock corporations, with one investing in the other and obtaining a controlling part of the stocks of the other.

    Universal "presumably" owned one third of the stock of Martel, after the Martel capital raise in December 1929.

    But we have proof that Martel in 1933 was still led by its founder Georges Pellaton as president with his sons Georges Pellaton-Perrelet as vice-president and René-Philippe Pellaton as secretary.

    Zenith and Universal were also independent stock corporations, which had however a working agreement and a joint administrator: Raoul Perret, who was president of Universal and on the board of administration of Zenith.

    Zenith and Universal worked together in the chronograph field from the beginning of the two pusher chronograph in 1932, made by Martel. Zenith (presumably) had to pay and Universal delivered chronographs to them. Zenith and Universal advertised the chronographs together as well as separately. Zenith had no direct relationship with Martel until much later.

    Later (ca. 1950's) Martel clearly had regained independence from Universal.

    Perhaps Universal had sold their part of Martel stock back to the Martel owners (presumably still Pellaton family) in the early 1950's; maybe to help finance the Polerouter (1954) and the Universal Genève caliber 215 with micro-rotor (1955), "the thinnest automatic of its time".

    As a result there was a short period in the 1950's when Martel was open again for new clients.

    It lasted only a short time, since Martel was then bought and completely incorporated by Zenith (ca. 1958). Zenith bought the entire stock of Martel and the independent Martel watch co SA ceased to exist, it was incorporated by Zenith. Maybe the founding Pellaton family had decided to retire and that's why they sold their entire stock to the Zenith company.

    A lot of perhaps and maybe's.

    But we are certain : Martel Watch co in 1956 was still the same separate entity, an independent stock corporation "société anonyme", as it was founded in 1911. And we are certain it was Martel who made the two pusher chronographs for Universal and Zenith since 1932.

    you suddenly declare that the matter under consideration is general knowledge? Sala, Berthoud & Rivolta appear not to be in the know, nor Lang & Mies.
    I don't know Sala, B&R & L&M personally, but I do surf around the internet occasionally.

    If it is known on the internet, I would say that it is general knowledge.

    This is an example of the essence which many seem to know already :

    "Sometime in the thirties, Martel had developed a chronograph movement for
    Universal Genève.
    With the takeover of Martel Watch, the caliber 749 - or the
    Universal 285 - became the Zénith caliber 146 family."
    (Zenith History - Watchchrono Magazine)

    Or this :

    "Es war einmal....
    in Neuchatel die Firma Martel Watch&Co., ein Rohwerkhersteller. Vintagefans kennen diesen Namen gewiss. In der Nachbarschaft gab es eine weitere, heute noch bekannntere Uhrenfirma, nämlich Universal Geneve.
    Universal baute zwar eigene "normale" Kaliber, hatte aber keine Chronowerke zur Verfügung.
    Diese kauften sie von Martel zu. So auch das Kaliber 749.
    Dieses wurde also von Martel gebaut und für Universal Geneve reserviert .
    Dort firmierte es dann als Kaliber UG 285. Das war bereits in den dreissiger-Jahren des letzten Jahrhunderts. Viel später, im Jahr 1960 wurde Martel dann von Zenith aufgekauft.
    Und damit entstand aus dem Kaliber "Martel 749", bzw. "UG 285" dann das "Zenith 146" wie es in meiner Uhr tickt. Eine nette Odyssee.
    (• Thema anzeigen - Wohl eine der schönsten Zenith´s)

    To translate some of the saliant points:
    "Once upon a time... there was in Neuchâtel an ébaucher by the name of Martel watch co. Vintage fans know its name for sure.
    In its neighbourhood there was another ... watch company, by the name of Universal Geneve.
    Universal built its own "normal" calibers but didn't have chronograph movements at its disposal. These they bought from Martel. Including caliber 749.
    This was built by Martel and reserved for Universal Geneve, who then signed it as caliber 285.
    That was already in the 1930's. Much later in 1960 Zenith bought the entire Martel company."

    Or this :
    "In 1960, Zenith acquired Martel Watch Company, a producer of movements for chronographs and other complicated watches (such as calendar and moonphase watches). Martel was well-known as the supplier of chronograph movements for Universal Geneve" (http://www.onthedash.com/docs/Project99.html)


    These examples show that in this thread I have only brought together illustrations and clarifications concerning something which was essentially already part of general knowledge.




    I'll also point out something we haven't considered yet - that UG started to use Valjoux 72 engines for its Compax line around the time of the sale of the PdM plant,
    That's another clear indication that the original Universal cal. 285 chronograph was Martel's creation and that it always remained Martel's property. Why would Universal start using Valjoux 72 if caliber 285 was their own property? Unfortunately for Universal they had sold their participation in Martel and lost the rights to their "own" caliber 285.


    We are left to explain why a building with Universal across the front represented the physical manifestation of Martel SA (which rather makes it look to me like UG was holding the leash at this point) and to understand the relationship between Martel and UG before 1941]
    As was suggested by Chris, the Universal name on the facade could have been there for purely promotional reasons. It does not imply necessarily that Universal was the owner of the building. More likely is that Martel remained the owner of its premises all the time. Technically Universal probably only owned a part of the owner of the building. As you suggest, Universal only "held the leash" at that time.

    Approximately ten years later Martel (apparently) became fully independent from Universal again; and then some years later again Zenith bought the entire Martel company, including the building and all of the intellectual property rights for the chronograph and other movements, including the Victorious brand name and the rest of it.

    The Martel building was (presumably) always in the Rue de l'Industrie, since 1911.

    There is some speculation here and there in telling the story and connecting the facts together but it is on the other hand exceptionally well substantiated by solid facts and documents, most of which were brought to us by Nicola.

    Nicola has delivered all of the evidence. Really, it is Nicola who has told the story, not by an abundance of words, but by means of proof only, in the form of authentic documentation from the past.
    Last edited by sempervivens; March 13th, 2012 at 00:41.
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    Re: A SHORT HISTORY OF MARTEL WATCH CO and ZENITH CHRONOGRAPHS




    Name:  martel polso 1932.jpg
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    (courtesy of Fjodor (O.&.P), by "Wristwatch chronology", Brunner & Pfeiffer-Belli.
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    Re: A SHORT HISTORY OF MARTEL WATCH CO and ZENITH CHRONOGRAPHS

    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post

    But we have proof that Martel in 1933 was still led by its founder Georges Pellaton as president with his sons Georges Pellaton-Perrelet as vice-president and René-Philippe Pellaton as secretary....

    ...Later (ca. 1950's) Martel clearly had regained independence from Universal.

    Perhaps Universal had sold their part of Martel stock back to the Martel owners (presumably still Pellaton family)...
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    Re: A SHORT HISTORY OF MARTEL WATCH CO and ZENITH CHRONOGRAPHS

    Nicola, excellent! Is it possible to find if Martel had any patents related to chrongraph movements from 1917 to 1941? That would really clarify things....

    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    Martel was an anonymous stock corporation since 1911.

    They were quite active in the 1920's, as demonstrated by Nicola with numerous documents.
    Established, no argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post

    The nature of an anonymous stock corporation is such that we cannot find out who owned that stock and where the investment came from. We can only presume. It is impossible to prove anything in this field.
    I don't think that's true. Look how much has already been proved by the newspaper items and patent records. Find UG naming a member to Martel's board, or even vice versa, and already something has been proved.

    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    It seems quite likely to me that in 1929-30 it was Universal who paid for that capital raise of the Martel company, which then allowed UG a controlling participation of 30 % of the Martel company.
    Ok, an interesting speculation. Although 30% is not controlling. And we don't know that it was Universal. In any case, I like to think that there would be some evidence of this in the business press if nowhere else...


    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    Next Universal shared it (only) with Zenith....Zenith paid to have access to the first chronograph caliber with two pushers
    : in this way Zenith took part in the investments needed for a chronograph movement
    It's not clear to me why you understand Zenith to have participated in the initial investment. My interpretation would be 'Universal sold the movements to Zenith....Zenith paid for the actual movements as they were delivered. In this way Universal recovered its capital investment' (regardless of who ultimately built the movements).

    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    Due to the high demand for the chronographs, in 1941 Martel got a new building on their old site. The investment was again (presumably) paid for by Universal and it was promoted as if the building was their own. Universal however (presumably) possessed only a third of the Martel stock, so technically they only owned part of (the company who owned) the building.
    This hypothesis seems to me especially tortured, only because it seems extremely bizarre that a buyer (Universal in your model) would build a manufacturing plant for a supplier. But perhaps that is less bizarre than the supplier (Martel) building a facility and putting the client's name on it! This is the part of the relationship that begs most for clarification, and about which the records are least revealing. Did UG at this point acquire Martel, in the same way that, say, Montblanc acquired Minerva, and use them as a self-contained "in-house" expert?

    Working backwards, it seems clear from the video that when Zenith bought Martel, it acquired the building that UG built in 1941. As Martel was actually producing watches under its own trademark for a brief time prior to this, and as the building had the Martel name on it, Martel seems to have replaced Universal as the primary tenant in that building at some point. Because some Martel intellectual property was shared with UG (cal 285, 291), it seems likely there was an association prior to that. But what was it? Who had the control, and for our interest, who had the design and creative initiative? Unresolved.


    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    Zenith in this period (1932-1950) (presumably) got the chronographs through Universal, who (presumably) first cased the chronographs.
    I would say all the way to 1960 possibly, and there is no presumption about UG first casing them. Apart from Sala's archival evidence, we know the chronographs carried UG serial and reference numbers, not Zenith numbers.


    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    A lot of perhaps and maybe's.
    A great many, and a few too many for me. We have different threshold for the tolerance of speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    And we are certain it was Martel who made the two pusher chronographs for Universal and Zenith since 1932.
    'We' are not, although you have convinced me of many things. Find a Martel patent, and we'll have evidence. The patent system was operating in 1932 - the document should exist in Switzerland of all places.


    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    If it is known on the internet, I would say that it is general knowledge.
    Oi! You made a good point earlier about how half-truths and misapprehensions are promulgated on in the internet without substantiation, one person copying from another. And it is not only the internet. I am always surprised in my own field to learn how many so called facts begin with someone of supposed authority making an unsupported statement from a rostrum that gets repeated by people who do not do their own investigation. I suggest we not feed that beast, especially as it appears likely some documentation could exist.


    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    That's another clear indication that the original Universal cal. 285 chronograph was Martel's creation and that it always remained Martel's property. Why would Universal start using Valjoux 72 if caliber 285 was their own property? Unfortunately for Universal they had sold their participation in Martel and lost the rights to their "own" caliber 285.
    Well, except that UG continued to make Tri-Compaxes with a very similar base caliber (cal 281) into the 1970s. Where were those produced after Martel passed into the hands of Zenith?


    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    The Martel building was (presumably) always in the Rue de l'Industrie, since 1911.
    remind me where we have this address from? I've lost track of this part.

    Quote Originally Posted by sempervivens View Post
    There is some speculation here and there in telling the story and connecting the facts together but it is on the other hand exceptionally well substantiated by solid facts and documents, most of which were brought to us by Nicola.

    Nicola has delivered all of the evidence. Really, it is Nicola who has told the story, not by an abundance of words, but by means of proof only, in the form of authentic documentation from the past.
    Well, certainly full credit to Nicolas who speaks in pictures and conveys more information that I do in English! I think you deserve credit too, and some grains of knowledge were gleaned from the Vermot video, and the UG and chronograph books. I think you've done something very substantial here, even if I am not such a big fan of speculation. Although piecemeal, this might just be the most complete history of the Martel-UG-Zenith tourbillon (in the original sense of 'whirlwind') extant. AND we now know exactly what we are looking for. I suggest it is
    1. Martel patents from 1932 to 1941, heck let's say 1917 to 1941
    2. notices of stock exchanges, board membership, etc. between UG and Martel in the period 1917 to 1941 and again in the late 1940 and early 1950s.
    3. any evidence for UG production facilities in PdM prior to 1941
    Last edited by LouS; March 13th, 2012 at 03:44.

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    Re: A SHORT HISTORY OF MARTEL WATCH CO and ZENITH CHRONOGRAPHS

    Next you'll ask us to prove that the sun also rises . Seriously, I don't see the need for further proof. The only thing torturous I see here is you trying to reconcile the fact that it was Martel who made the chronographs, with your previous belief that it was Universal who made the chronographs themselves. Apparently Sala held that information back from you.

    It's not clear to me why you understand Zenith to have participated in the initial investment.
    I didn't suggest Zenith participated in the initial investment before 1932. It is possible, but I wouldn't presume that. But starting around 1932, Zenith paid to get the chronographs and thus helped in the investments. Zenith also shared the costs of advertising the new chronographs with Universal. Zenith helped to launch the new product. Because making a new product requires investments; but launching it on the market still requires more investments.

    Presumably Universal had 30 % in Martel from ca. 1929 until ca. 1954. When you say that 30 % of the stock of a company is not a controlling participation, do you speak as an expert in stock corporations or do you at least have some knowledge about them? Because I seem to remember that 30 % of the stock of a company can give you a lot of powers in a stock corporation (for instance "veto rights").

    Martel seems to have replaced Universal as the primary tenant in that building at some point. Because some Martel intellectual property was shared with UG (cal 285, 291), it seems likely there was an association prior to that. But what was it? Who had the control, and for our interest, who had the design and creative initiative? Unresolved
    Martel was always the only tenant /owner of the building in Les Ponts-de-Martel since 1911. They were there in 1911 and they were still there in 1958. Universal never owned Martel nor the building. Why is that so difficult to understand? Universal only helped in financing Martel, including their new, modernised building in 1941.
    The design and creative work to make the chronographs, was entirely Martel's.
    Universal helped to finance Martel, presumably since 1929. In exchange Universal got exclusivity.
    It was a partnership which lasted twenty years (ca. 1930-1950).
    Universal during this period had some control over Martel, presumably by holding 30 % of the stock of Martel (which can be seen as an insurance in exchange for their investments in Martel).

    The address of Martel in the rue de l'Industrie is mentioned in the 1914 document (from the swiss fédération horlogère).

    Why ask for patents ? It is clear that Martel held the intellectual rights for the chronograph movement. Otherwise those rights could not have been included in the 1959 acquisition of the Martel company by Zenith.
    Of course additional documentation is always welcome, but it is not necessary.

    At this point, I'm only wondering about what you say : that Universal still made the Tricompax in the 1960's. Did Universal obtain the intellectual rights for the Tricompax from Martel ? or could it have been that Universal Geneve in the 1960's simply used up an old stock of Tricompax movements?
    Last edited by sempervivens; March 13th, 2012 at 15:56.
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    Re: A SHORT HISTORY OF MARTEL WATCH CO and ZENITH CHRONOGRAPHS

    Quote Originally Posted by LouS View Post
    Nicola, excellent! Is it possible to find if Martel had any patents related to chrongraph movements from 1917 to 1941? That would really clarify things....
    At your order, Sir!

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    Re: A SHORT HISTORY OF MARTEL WATCH CO and ZENITH CHRONOGRAPHS

    Brilliant Nicola!

    Does the brevet have any more information about details of the movement?
    Last edited by LouS; March 13th, 2012 at 15:14.

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    Re: A SHORT HISTORY OF MARTEL WATCH CO and ZENITH CHRONOGRAPHS

    Blimey, you lot have been busy. I tried to follow this from the start but got brain-boggle after the first few posts. Hopefully a useful summary of the various points will follow once the issues have been thrashed out.

    Dave

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