Correct in the sense that Movado Datrons and 17J export Zeniths may usually be signed "3019 PHC Swiss" on the bridge. But this doesn't explain why many of the early 31J Zenith El Primero's are also signed like that. I find it very unlikely that these would all be movements that were used in Movado Datrons or 17J Zenith El Primero's and which would have been transplanted to 31J Zeniths.
There are relatively many of these 'less elaborately signed bridges' around in vintage Zenith El Primero's. So I'm mainly wondering whether :
A these watches were made like that, i.e. they had the less elaborately signed bridges from the beginning, or
B these have been serviced at some point in their history and the movement was simply replaced during service with a new factory original Zenith 3019 PHC from the 1970's.
Thirdly there are those that are signed "3019 PHC".
I haven't some across this
B these have been serviced at some point in their history and the movement was simply replaced during service with a new factory original Zenith 3019 PHC from the 1970's.
When I get the chance, I'll crack open some casebacks and verify my recollection about these.
Incidentally, 2 have just gone off to Zenith for service, inspired by M. Dufour's recent comments about vintage service -- I will update the forum as that progresses.
Can't really comment much on that. What amazes me is the "B Swiss made" or "C Swiss made" under the balance - I always thought that's where Zenith put the movement serial number (they did on mine - but that's a Cal. 410 from 1996).
I am not sure there is a definitive answer to this but certainly the earliest ones seem to have the full inscription as on my A386 from 1969 ("B Swiss Made" under the balance):
A couple of years later the A3818 has only "3019 PHC Swiss" with "C Swiss Made":
Rolling forward to 1975 and both mine from that year have just "3019 PHC", both with C Swiss Made beneath the balance.
Okay, here is the inventory from my examples (that I can open)
All Primeros from the first model run (A 384, A 385, A 386) have bridge inscription "Zenith 31 jewels 3019PHC" and "Swiss Made B" under the balance wheel, as does an A 3817 from the following model run.
Surprise finding from an A 788: "Zenith Seventeen 17 jewels Unadjusted 3019PHC" but also "Swiss Made B"
In the MOvados, all 3 have "Swiss 3019PHC." The under-the-balance inscription is "Swiss Made" with no letter designation on the earliest of these and "Swiss Made A" in theother two.
anyone else want to stir in more data before we draw some comclusions?
Thank you friends for your joint efforts that are very helpful. Dave has made an excellent case for a simple and logical chronological explanation. To complicate things a bit more, Lou has found out that there are even three more possibilities. In the meantime I've also tried to have a look at as many movement shots as I could find (one more in attachment). Future observations may shed more light. For now, I'll try to piece a few things together :
The following 3019 PHC bridge signatures have been observed (so far) :
1. "3019 PHC Swiss" (no letter designation under the balance)
2. "3019 PHC Swiss" ("A Swiss Made" under balance)
3. "3019 PHC Zenith thirty-one 31 jewels" ("A Swiss Made" under balance)
4. "3019 PHC Zenith thirty-one 31 jewels" ("B Swiss Made" under balance)
5. "3019 PHC Zenith 17 jewels unadjusted" ("B Swiss Made" under balance)
6. "3019 PHC Swiss" ("B Swiss Made" under balance)
7. "3019 PHC" ("C Swiss Made" under the balance)
These have been seen (and are most likely to be found) in the following watches :
1. one of the earliest Movado Datrons
2. early Movado Datrons
3. seen in one Zenith El Primero A385
4. most of the earliest Zenith El Primero's (1969-1971), still quite common for the next model run of Zenith El Primero's (1971-1972)
5. seen in one Zenith El Primero A788
6. often in 1971-1972 Zenith El Primero's, rarely in (1969-1971) Zenith El Primero's (service replacements?), also seen in 1973-75 Zenith El Primero's,
7. general rule for the last model run of vintage Zenith El Primero's (1973-1975), also to be seen in some 1971-1972 Zenith El Primero's
Note : the three most common signatures are shown above in bold characters;
These observations should be regarded as no more than a working hypothetis.
Additionally, and as already mentioned, there seem to be exceptions to the general rules :
- some of the oldest Zenith El Primero's (1969-71) have the intermediate signature "3019 PHC Swiss" ("B Swiss Made" under balance). Especially for these it can't be ruled out that the original movements were replaced by 'new old stock' 3019 PHC movements : that could easily have been done during service by Zenith say in the early 1980's, when they still had a stock of 3019 PHC movements.
- some of the intermediate Zenith El Primero's (1971-72) have the later signature "3019 PHC" (without "Swiss"). Again it is impossible to tell whether these were like that from the start or perhaps the movement was replaced during service.
- some of the later Zenith El Primero's (1973-75) have the earlier signature "3019 PHC Zenith thirty-one 31 jewels". I've seen more than one Zenith El Primero "Pilot/Diver" like that, this is usually considered a later model (but it is also possible that Zenith started working on this model as early as 1971)
- as mentioned, the later Zenith El Primero's (1973-75) may also be signed "3019 PHC Swiss".
This is the movement on my 71 El Primero Pilot (01-0180-415). Right now the watch is receiving full maintenance. I'll show you some pictures after the service
First off, I do not have the answer to the "B" or "C" marking question. The question reminded me of something I recently found on the Omega Constellation Collectors blog about mysterious markings on early Omega movements.
The 500-series movements sometimes have an omega symbol on the bridge with an engraved digit 1 or 2 within the omega. After a bit of sleuthing, Desmond suggests (discovered) that Omega had different parts for different dial heights used with these movements. The numeric indication was a "revision" number for the informed watchmaker, taken together with the Omega factory notices. Not all parts were equally interchangeable and with the digit the correct part could be ordered or used for that movement in a particular dial configuration.
...Not all parts were equally interchangeable and with the digit the correct part could be ordered or used for that movement in a particular dial configuration.
I'm wondering what the signature on the Zenith Espada is : both the A7817 and 01.0040.418.
Is there an 'elaborate' signature on the bridge with '3019 PHF Zenith' + the jewel count; or a shorter signature with just '3019 PHF' (with or without 'swiss')? And a 'B Swis made' or 'C Swiss made' under the balance ?
Thanks Dave, that is wonderful. The 'short' signature is not a surprise for a Zenith Espada from the 1973-75 period.
For the A7817 from 1971 I would expect maybe an additional 'Swiss' on the bridge.
@ Chris : I understand. Let us know when you have an occasion to find out. (Maybe one of those rubber balls would be best to open the case).
In the meantime thanks to David for another confirmation that a 'short' '3019 PHC Swiss' with 'C Swiss Made' under the balance is general for 1971-72 Zenith El Primero's.
b-)
For the sake of completeness, let me add to this thread that there even exists a possibility of a cal. 3019 PHC movement that was not signed "3019 PHC" at all, as can be seen in Daniel's Pilot, which dates to ca. 1975 (at least the caseback is signed '75' on the inside):
Looking for some information on my 17 jewels El Primero (see as well this thread), I came across this interesting thread.
First of all I see that I have some hybrid El Primero between type 6 and 7 as described above by sempervivens given that my 01.0210.415 has both "3019 PHC Swiss" and "C Swiss made".
Secondly, I have an additional question, looking at my El Primero and the pictures of the other El Primero movements, I was wondering whether the letter or figure on the left under the balance wheel has any meaning? For the avoidance of doubt, I am not talking about the letter above "SWISS MADE", but about the letter or figure on the left of "C SWISS MADE" on my picture below. As you can see, mine is showing an 8. On other pictures I see letters such as A or C. Any idea what the meaning of this might be?
Looking for some information on my 17 jewels El Primero (see as well this thread), I came across this interesting thread.
First of all I see that I have some hybrid El Primero between type 6 and 7 as described above by sempervivens given that my 01.0210.415 has both "3019 PHC Swiss" and "C Swiss made".
Secondly, I have an additional question, looking at my El Primero and the pictures of the other El Primero movements, I was wondering whether the letter or figure on the left under the balance wheel has any meaning? For the avoidance of doubt, I am not talking about the letter above "SWISS MADE", but about the letter or figure on the left of "C SWISS MADE" on my picture below. As you can see, mine is showing an 8. On other pictures I see letters such as A or C. Any idea what the meaning of this might be?
Replacement parts! At first sight, the obvious assumption would be: replacement rotor (since it is the easiest thing to replace) - but in view of all the jewels in the chronograph mechanism, I suspect that the chronograph bridge with "SEVENTEEN JEWELS" on it has been replaced (or an incorrect one installed from the start).
The El Primero came in 17 and 31 jewel versions. One might think that the 17 jewel versions were destined for the US since there were customs restrictions on the jewel counts (high jewelled movements cost more to import) but since this movement wasn't imported into the US without the rest of the watch around it (and for the most part not imported at all when Zenith Electronics had control over Zenith SA, plus thereafter too), this doesn't apply. I do know that Movado tended to use the 17J version (maybe they imported into the US.....).
Congratulations! I would have thought they had sold most of the remaining stock earlier in the eighties but it seems not.
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