Kingston Sales

[MHe225]

Arthur, thank you for pulling the data together - it's something I sort of wanted to do, but never found the time to actually do it. I think the situation is more grave then you picture it - anybody feel free to correct me if you think my interpretation is wrong.
There are a few more places where Kingstons have been sold (e.g. UK sites) and reading that the ones currently being shipped are sub 120 in the line-up, leads me to believe that the percentage of Kingstons that have been flipped is more in the 30 - 40 percent range ......

As you, Dragoon and powerband have suggested, the Kingston's ROI, though maybe not the reason, definitely is a big incentive to flip the watch. If people weren't even able to recover the original purchase price (as with most purchases), I think most, if not all, would have tried harder to like and enjoy the watch. Personally, I don't buy in to the argument of changed taste (maybe for very few), but do see how the long wait has soured the experience for many and robbed them of their joy for the Kingston.

The wait for (future) GO-owners is indeed shorter (by design) but still requires a lot of patience and falls far outside the instant gratification window. I just checked: I got on the list and made my first down-payment already 21 months ago. We're getting glimpses of the finish-line, though and I do hope that Mr. Yao indeed manages to get all Kingstons out of the door before the end of the year (2012 that is).

But the Kingston has taught us a lesson in patience. Co-participants in the Forum Project (watch) in the Chinese Mechanical Watches corner are already getting impatient: the design was finalized mid November and the proto-type was unveiled yesterday. To me -and probably all Kingstonians- that's fast

RonB

[toxicavenger]

A "fantasy homage"??? Maybe a more updated version, where the King is more of a straight up copy.

I don't think it will have much of an effect because it's a different style watch.

The kingston is more of a true homage, where as the Raven is more of what I would call a "fantasy homage"

Bigger diameter, big hands, lumed bezel insert, etc.

[Dent99]

I understand that people who have been soured by the delays. I understand people who are tempted to make more than they paid. But I don't think these people ever really wanted to own a Kingston in the first place. Or certainly not for the long haul.

Which only leaves one reason for all the selling we've been seeing: classic serial flipper behaviour. I think that is the real nail on the head, even if I do say so myself. Flippers flip watches. If they can make some money while doing it what's going to stop them?

The Kingston for all its forum input, classic design, painstaking assembly and fantastic quality will only ever have been a flavour of the month for a great many. 3 years ago it was the greatest, latest thing from Bill Yao but a lot of other products can tease the fickle attentions of those who think nothing of flipping any watch at a moments notice. The Kingston is no different to ANY other watch - it always was and always will be an item for whom a passing fancy is too hard to resist. So when the proverbial hit the fan and the delivery dates went over 2+ years, those people who were never committed to owning this watch will shuffle it on and happily pocket the extra change. Sure maybe some were dissapointed with the product, and fair enough if that is the case, but I would imagine those cases are very few and far between.

I did breifly flirt with the idea of selling mine (back when I could have used the money) but I never really wanted to relinquish my order and I am so glad I stuck with it, that would have been a real regret for this watch fan.

So I persevered and I got a bit annoyed with all the delays but even having never ordered a watch (or any product for that matter) with a long lead time I never worried about the status of the project. Bill has a stellar reputation and I never worried about what was happening with my money or the quality of the goods I would eventually recieve.
To get this level or workmanship for $700/£450 and to get a moden amazing quality homage of one of the best Rolex Submariner's ever was a deal I could never pass up. This watch, because of what it is, and what it homages, and who made it for me, is a watch I can't ever see myself letting go of, especially when the only other alternative is a £30k original. Then again maybe I am just weird and only buy watches I actually want to keep/own? It often feels that way!

[MHe225]

...... I am just weird and only buy watches I actually want to keep/own .....

Just when you think you've seen it all ..... Man, you are really weird!!



Thanks for this post; it is good to know I'm not the only one.

RonB

[Arthur]

[QUOTE=Dent99;4783042]I understand that people who have been soured by the delays. I understand people who are tempted to make more than they paid. But I don't think these people ever really wanted to own a Kingston in the first place. Or certainly not for the long haul.

Which only leaves one reason for all the selling we've been seeing: classic serial flipper behaviour. I think that is the real nail on the head, even if I do say so myself. Flippers flip watches. If they can make some money while doing it what's going to stop them?

The Kingston for all its forum input, classic design, painstaking assembly and fantastic quality will only ever have been a flavour of the month for a great many. 3 years ago it was the greatest, latest thing from Bill Yao but a lot of other products can tease the fickle attentions of those who think nothing of flipping any watch at a moments notice. The Kingston is no different to ANY other watch - it always was and always will be an item for whom a passing fancy is too hard to resist. So when the proverbial hit the fan and the delivery dates went over 2+ years, those people who were never committed to owning this watch will shuffle it on and happily pocket the extra change. Sure maybe some were dissapointed with the product, and fair enough if that is the case, but I would imagine those cases are very few and far between.

I did breifly flirt with the idea of selling mine (back when I could have used the money) but I never really wanted to relinquish my order and I am so glad I stuck with it, that would have been a real regret for this watch fan.

I believe that you are probably at least partially right about the "Flipper" attitude. Quite a few folks probably got on board at first withhte idea that the watch from Bill would be first rate quality with a great parts kit and a very low price. Why not, ,if you don't like it, then why not turn it. Of course the fact that the watches were scarce, popular, and thus brought a generous profit, certainly contributed to a fair number of decisions to sell.

Haviing said that, I still believe that their has been another component to the sales volume, that is the long wait and for some folks the lack of updates and the amount of negative commentary on this and other forums certainly soured some toward the watch. that was evident by some of the comments made by forum members who said that the watch was such a source of negative feelings that they would sell it as soon as it arrived. I hope that the folks who have strong negative feelings ,not necressarily abpout the watch itself, but the process, will be able to move the watch on to others who are looking for a Kingston and didn't get in on the initial orders. Probabbly the first plank purchasers suffered the most, as they have had the longest time interval between purchase and delivery. Those of us in the General Order will probably suffer the least, as it looks as though the time from purchase to delivery will be significantly shorter. Whether or not that will be a factor in the number of watches "flipped" ,only time will tell.

[Saxon007]

I understand that people who have been soured by the delays. I understand people who are tempted to make more than they paid. But I don't think these people ever really wanted to own a Kingston in the first place.

That's a bit unfair. I really did want to own a Kingston when I put my deposit down on March 2, 2009 with an anticipated Q1 2010 delivery. When I finally got the Kingston in Dec 2011 I learned that I would have to wait another 60 days to get my parts kit - I was so frustrated I could've kicked a puppy. After a couple of inquiring emails the parts kit arrived last Monday - exactly 4 days before the 3 year anniversary of my initial order.

I suppose its a nice watch - I haven't worn mine so I can't say for sure. I just know I'm not cut out for the pre-order process.

[White Tuna]

That's a bit unfair. I really did want to own a Kingston when I put my deposit down on March 2, 2009 with an anticipated Q1 2010 delivery. When I finally got the Kingston in Dec 2011 I learned that I would have to wait another 60 days to get my parts kit - I was so frustrated I could've kicked a puppy. After a couple of inquiring emails the parts kit arrived last Monday - exactly 4 days before the 3 year anniversary of my initial order.

I suppose its a nice watch - I haven't worn mine so I can't say for sure. I just know I'm not cut out for the pre-order process.

Did you need tha parts kit?

[Arthur]

Did you need tha parts kit?

I don't think it's a question of whether or not he needed the parts kit, but the frustration that comes from waiting, and waiting and waiting and then when it finally is delivered, it's not complete.

Have you ever bought anything that had to be shipped and after all the anticipation, the package arrives and it's damaged, or you open it only to find that something is missing. Even if what you bought is usable, or the missing screws can be gotten very easily at your local hardware store, you're still not happy. I believe the frustration comes from the uncertainty of not knowing where you stand. I have waited longer than the wait on the Kingston for custom knives as well as a couple of old shotguns I had restored. The difference was the person I was dealing with told me upfront in no uncertain terms, what the wait would be. Every one of them told me that the wait period would be from 6 months to 3 years. At that point I had to make a decision as to whether or not I was willing to wait. In each case I did, and to be honest, I didn't think about any of them very much until maybe a few weeks or a month or two before they were ready. One advantage, there wasn't a forum on the internet to drop in on every day. I was in the dark, so to speak, whereas here the forum members sort of fed on each others anxiety and frustrations. I believe that this makes things much worse, as the subject of your angst is brought up every day.

What is pretty interesting to me is the reaction of some of the members on the forum. The folks who have owned other MKII's and bought into the Kingston project, even though some became frustrated, have pretty much stayed around and are in either the Project 300, the Pan AM, or both. On the other hand, quite a few of the most vocal members got their watches and have never been heard from since. Possibly a lot of those folks have sold their Kingston, others got it liked it, but either way haven't been heard from since.

I think that their is a valuable lesson to be learned from the Kingston project, by everyone. I believe that Bill realized that the delivery schedule he was proposing was far too optimistic. Too many option combinations, shipping back and forth to Switzerland, etc. created a monster. On top of this, it looks like practically every watch had to be disassembled and redone. It makes for a wonderful watch, but it plays havoc with scheduling. On the customer side, I believe that some folks realized that they just weren't cut out for projects that stretched out into the future, just as Saxon007 has admitted. How can this be remedied in the future? I don't know, but I would guess that Bill realized that a more realistic schedule is in the best interest of everyone, and customers should know up front approximately when they can expect to receive their watch. For those who can't wait, their only alternative is to find something else that they can get sooner, or pick one up on the secondary market, which in this case was more expensive. Those folks didn't have one bit of anxiety or frustration, but it came at a price.

[White Tuna]

I don't think it's a question of whether or not he needed the parts kit, butthe frustration that comes from waiting, and waiting and waiting and then whenit finally is delivered, it's not complete.

It was MYquestion wasn’t it? Or are you debatingme on what I asked? Also, I was notaware he did not get a complete watch. That would be frustrating.

Have you ever bought anything that had to be shipped and after all theanticipation, the package arrives and it's damaged, or you open it only to findthat something is missing.

This happens tome fairly often with items of varying costs and availability. I thought it was part of growing up? Maybe I am being persecuted and do not knowit?

Even if what you bought is usable, or themissing screws can be gotten very easily at your local hardware store, you'restill not happy. I believe the frustration comes from the uncertainty of notknowing where you stand. I have waited longer than the wait on the Kingston for customknives as well as a couple of old shotguns I had restored. The difference wasthe person I was dealing with told me upfront in no uncertain terms, what thewait would be. Every one of them told me that the wait period would be from 6months to 3 years. At that point I had to make a decision as to whether or notI was willing to wait. In each case I did, and to be honest, I didn't thinkabout any of them very much until maybe a few weeks or a month or two beforethey were ready. One advantage, there wasn't a forum on the internet to drop inon every day. I was in the dark, so to speak, whereas here the forum memberssort of fed on each others anxiety and frustrations. I believe that this makesthings much worse, as the subject of your angst is brought up every day.

I have waitedover a year for pairs of shoes and may or may not currently be on the list fora pair of boots that I really want. Iwas put on the wait list for the boots over a year ago. I am not even sure if the horse is deadyet.

What is pretty interesting to me is the reaction of some of the members on theforum. The folks who have owned other MKII's and bought into the Kingstonproject, even though some became frustrated, have pretty much stayed around andare in either the Project 300, the Pan AM, or both. On the other hand, quite afew of the most vocal members got their watches and have never been heard fromsince. Possibly a lot of those folks have sold their Kingston, others got it liked it, but eitherway haven't been heard from since.

Well I stoppedreading the site for a while because of all of the negative and whiney commentsand what I felt was poor moderation that encouraged it. I have pretty much returned for the Pan Amand am happy it is finally on the distant horizon. Also except for a few posters the site seemsmore positive and the pictures are fantastic.

I think thattheir is a valuable lesson to be learned from the Kingston project, by everyone. I believe thatBill realized that the delivery schedule he was proposing was far toooptimistic. Too many option combinations, shipping back and forth to Switzerland,etc. created a monster. On top of this, it looks like practically every watchhad to be disassembled and redone. It makes for a wonderful watch, but it playshavoc with scheduling. On the customer side, I believe that some folks realizedthat they just weren't cut out for projects that stretched out into the future,just as Saxon007 has admitted. How can this be remedied in the future? I don'tknow, but I would guess that Bill realized that a more realistic schedule is inthe best interest of everyone, and customers should know up front approximatelywhen they can expect to receive their watch. For those who can't wait, theironly alternative is to find something else that they can get sooner, or pickone up on the secondary market, which in this case was more expensive. Thosefolks didn't have one bit of anxiety or frustration, but it came at a price.

I look at allof these things you mention as problems as another reason to want my watchmore. If I wanted a watch today I couldbuy a Timex or an Omega but I am looking for something that will be moreexclusive. Do I want my Kingston now? Heck yeah,but I am not going to complain every time I get a chance because I don’t haveit. The vast majority of people do not do this and I would feel ashamed if I did.

[Jim C.]

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