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  1. #331
    Member Chromejob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by curt941 View Post
    Well, maybe my memory's faulty. The two on the ends demonstrate what i mean... Not the middle watch.

    I could be wrong but I believe the 24h hand is so far at the perimeter so that its lume will not be obstructed by the minute hand when they're aligned. :what: [1]

    ..... I'll try to find other examples and variations we can discuss.


    [1] Confirmed. I've found examples both ways, I'm guessing due to replacement with wrong minute hands. Why? I stashed away some vintage Rolex ads that show a shorter minute hand. Will post later tonight after preparing din din for my spawn..... ;)

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    Last edited by Chromejob; April 6th, 2013 at 00:08.
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  2. #332
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    Re: Project GMT: Design thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chromejob View Post
    Well, maybe my memory's faulty. The two on the ends demonstrate what i mean... Not the middle watch.

    I could be wrong but I believe the 24h hand is so far at the perimeter so that its lume will not be obstructed by the minute hand when they're aligned. :what:

    ..... I'll try to find other examples and variations we can discuss.

    // Tapatalk HD for Android - Nexus 7 //
    What you are saying about the minute hand obstructionmakes sense, but wouldn't a fat 24-hr hand also be visible underneath if that is the issue? Just tossing that out there if that is the only concern.
    Rich

  3. #333
    Member Arthur's Avatar
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    Re: Project GMT: Design thread

    I would really like to see the GMT hand left small like the original. Actually with proper lume, the small GMT hand is quite visible. In fact being close to the rehaut the lume reflects off the rehaut and is very visible

    Were I to have a vote, I would like the White dial to be either C3 or Natural.
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  4. #334
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    Re: Project GMT: Design thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post
    I would really like to see the GMT hand left small like the original. Actually with proper lume, the small GMT hand is quite visible. In fact being close to the rehaut the lume reflects off the rehaut and is very visible

    Were I to have a vote, I would like the White dial to be either C3 or Natural.
    I also like the original small GMT hand, as it is both iconographic and attractive.

    I would also like the whit dial with natural or C3 lume, as I think that would be an outstanding combination.

    I can't wait, and hopefully I can request a serial number.

  5. #335
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    Re: Project GMT: Design thread

    I'm not an expert, but it looks from images I've seen that they enlarged the 24h indicator in Ref. 1675 (which also had crown guards). Even with a shorter minute hand, this larger triangle blocked out most or all of the round hour markers, and was itself obscured by the minutes hand when they aligned. Nice for visibility, but I don't like a triangle and circle lume object occupying the same place and perhaps being confused. Particularly now that this old fart needs reading glasses. ;)

    Looking at some pics, particularly some beautiful ones by Stefano Mazzariol, one can see that originally the hands were apparently designed so that all of them complemented each other. The minute hand clearly does not reach further than the chapter ring indices, and the 24h indicator resides right in the range of those indices.





    BTW, that's the color of lume that I like and will work well with dark outlines. I call it "winter white," or natural, or "cream." I have no idea how that'll look with gilt outlines, if that's even still considered. Were any done that way?

    Now, there are pics out there of these watches (Ref. 6542) with longer minute hands. I suspect this is a case of the wrong minute hand being swapped on the watch at some point. My evidence is two vintage Rolex ads, and (if I squint just right) a 6542 instruction manual.





    Yeah, I know -- those are 1675s with crown guards. And that second ad (late 1960s, early 1970s judging from the hair styles, font family) seems to show a larger, or shorter, 24h hand. When I search online for "rolex 1675" I see tons of them with much larger 24h indicators, blocking the hour markers.

    Why couldn't we enlarge the 24h indicator...?

    Well, if you want to maintain this balance of chapter ring indices, 1-2-4-5-7-8-10-11 hour markers never being obscured, and the 24h indicator not being obscured by the minute hand, the positioning and proportions may get out of whack. (edit) (We're making an authentic reproduction, not a derivative homage, correct me if I'm mistaken. Lots of others make those pseudo-reproductions.) With the quality and quantity of SuperLuminova that Bill's specifying I don't think the older, smaller indicator will be a problem. Remember that there are NO luminous markings outside of those hour markers, so a glowing spot by the rehaut could only be one thing. In fact, I think that could've been the idea -- it there's a glowing spot at the outermost ring of the dial, that's your 24h indicator. I've always liked that, and disliked the ginormous indicator further towards center.

    Minute hand length, lume area.

    In the images below, you can see a minute hand that's clearly too long. Note how the lume on the left watch's minutes hand reaches only to the hour marker and stops short of it. (You see this in Stefano's pics above, too.) It looks like the hand is longer and extending into the chapter ring indices, but I think that's the sweep seconds hand's tip. Contrast with the watch on the right, the minutes hand's lume reaches into the hour marker. Most vintage, original Rolex Subs I've seen I noticed that the sweep seconds hand luminous pip does not reach to the 3, 6, 9 o'clock hour markers, but just short of them, forming a "i" momentarily. Bill reproduced this in the Kingston (well done, sir!). I think the sweep seconds hand, and minutes hand, on the 6542 displayed the same attention to detail. My proof is seen above in the second ad (detail) -- look where the pip is relative to the 6 o'clock marker. ;) Look again at the watch on the right below -- hello, that sweep seconds hand pip has crossed in front of the 9 o'clock marker (and its tip extends beyond the chapter ring). That's two "oops" on that watch. A collector might argue with me, but I think there's some sloppiness going on in that watch, something I wouldn't attribute to Rolex.

    BTW I include these two (below) to illustrate what I mean about "fake vintage lume." I find the dark cream and orange colors just atrocious. Authentic to a 50 year old watch, but not to a reproduction, and not to a new watch.



    Clearly, to me, the hands and seconds hands on the right-hand watch are "not right" compared to originals, even if the replacement parts are genuine Rolex.

    Addendum:

    BTW, in all of this, I defer to Bill. I'm just an aficionado who's looked at a lot of pics, and learns bit by bit at the knees of collectors and watchmakers. Bill has spent ungodly number of hours starting at these things through a loupe, sweating over these kinds of details. He knows how to make this stuff work. Also ... he may find that his hands supplier can actually make the metal of the 24h indicator thinner than Rolex did in the original, resulting in a larger proportion of lume to metal. We shall have to see what our watchmaker tells us is feasible. 8)
    Last edited by Chromejob; April 6th, 2013 at 18:53. Reason: adding note for Bill's feedback and final decision
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  6. #336
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    Re: Project GMT: Design thread

    chrome,
    Thanks for a very, very well done and informative post. I have said all along that the small GMT hand should be retained.I have seen examples of 6542,s that were re lumed at some point that still have some "Glow" the GMT hand will reflect off the rehaut, and it has a very different and interesting effect. Rolex solved the problem of overlap quite nicely, longest hand GMT, next the minute hand, then the short hour hand. To me the Sweep second is of no great consequence, as it's moving so fast it doesn't obscure anything for over a second or two To me that's the way to solve the problem, make the GMT hand long enough to reach the chapter ring, the Minute hand shorter to barely cover the base of the triangle of the GMT hand when it crosses over, and the hour hand shorter . I'm not such a stickler for some of thethings mentioned such as the ball onthe ensd of the second hand intersecting precisely the middle of the Mercedes Y. If it can be made to do it, that's fine, but it sure doesn't matter to me if it's off a few thousandths.

    AFA the lume, I'm with you about the color, similar to the top ones in Stefano's photo. Creamy, neutral, whatever the name, just duplicate that color! I don't believe that Rolex made a gilt white. If they were ever made at all. I'm a firm believer that they were, but that story has been hashed out "ad nauseum" Rolex ain't telling, Pan Am's records are all buried in an archive at the University of Florida library, so until a watch turns up with an ironclad provenence, their eistance will be a matter of speculation. Stefano Mazzariol firmly believes they exist, and he has forgotten more about Vintage Rolex es than I will ever know!! Frankly WhileI have been and advocate of Gilt lettered white dials, i'm beginniing to think that the dials need black markers and outlines. i'm just afraid that gilt on white isn't going to provide enough contrast and in some lighting conditions, the dial is going to look like a blank white dial.

    Here is the photo I found,.This is from a fellow who makes aftermarket acrylic inserts for 6542's. he constructed a homage watch, using and aftermarket bezel assembly and his own insert. He relumed the dial and hands to match the insert lume. What I wanted to illustrate was the lume glow on the rehault. It's pretty easy to see where the GMT hand is because you have a "double glow effect" the hand as well as the reflection. not a good photo, plus I need to get his permission to use it.
    I'll try to get one better tomorrow

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    Last edited by Arthur; April 6th, 2013 at 15:43. Reason: spelling
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  7. #337
    Member Thieuster's Avatar
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    Re: Project GMT: Design thread

    @ Chromejob & Arthur: great postings guys! Thanks.

    I still have to imagine gilt lines around the markers on the white dial, though.

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  8. #338
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    Re: Project GMT: Design thread

    Small 24 hour hand !
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  9. #339
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    Re: Project GMT: Design thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post
    ... Here is the photo I found,.This is from a fellow who makes aftermarket acrylic inserts for 6542's. he constructed a homage watch, using and aftermarket bezel assembly and his own insert. He relumed the dial and hands to match the insert lume. What I wanted to illustrate was the lume glow on the rehault. It's pretty easy to see where the GMT hand is because you have a "double glow effect" the hand as well as the reflection. not a good photo, plus I need to get his permission to use it.
    I'll try to get one better tomorrow
    Thanks for the compliment, and the pic. Yeah I think this demonstrates that, at least when the lume is fully charged and glowing strong, a good amount of lume on that little 24h indicator makes it visible.

  10. #340
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    Re: Project GMT: Design thread

    I still think this should be a re-imagined version of the Pan Am, and not simply an excellent homage. One of the areas that I think would be improved would be the 24-hour marker. I don't want to see something akin to the current GMT Master II, far from it. But I would like to see that beautiful little triangle be a little bit bigger, so I can actually see it. Judging by some of the pictures posted earlier, there seems to be plenty of room to enlarge the triangle a little, without ruining the aesthetics and balance of the hands and markers.

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