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Doxa 1200T (seed planted by The Grey NATO) or a Seiko mm300.

7K views 62 replies 26 participants last post by  biscuit141 
#1 ·
Doxa 1200T or Seiko mm300

Doxa has been on my mind since the Grey NATO guys reviewed the 50th anniversary model. I think the watches are "tool cool" and different than other divers. And the history. COSC 2824.

MM300, is cool in my book too. I have a 7.25 wrist and it's a flat wrist. I like this model a lot except for the lack of servicing easily and the reports of poor regulation. I know it's not regulated, but I know it can be as an 8l35. But I like my SKX 007 and its sometimes fast or slow depending on position.

I'll begin by stating I'm a waffler. I've posted a few threads, responded in others all in the attempt to better come to grips with my own watch tastes. I've recently made some philosophic posts on the failings of the "luxury" Swiss watch industry, to come away feeling that I'm not that into "luxury." Since luxury is subjective, to me it means money spent where I would miss the money more than my ability to enjoy the watch. I had once owned a Rolex Explorer 214270 that I didn't bond with and was always concerned about the possibility of loosing my "investment" scratching or damaging it, since I bought it partly for its value retention. I flipped into a Black bay and some cash. I plan on keeping the ETA Bay to see where second hand prices go, and possibly sell if the price is right. I should have just put the explorer in a safe and went on with my life. Except I found I like dive watches.

My new Grail had been a Submariner. But since I am admitting that I cannot afford one now nor in a position to lose it, I'm putting the Sub on the back burner for a while. I can afford a Submariner if I flipped out of all my watches, but I would have one watch and I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing that amount of money on my wrist at one time. Now, I and my wife, are comfortable with me owning and wearing a couple of quality $2k pieces if I want. If I lost a Doxa 1200T or a MM300 that would hurt, but not hurt financially.

So, of those who have one or both, what are your suggestions or views? I don't see them as status or luxury pieces, simply tough watches that are cool to me (like the Submariner). Either one I would like to own for as long as I can and would be in a collection along side a future Submariner purchase (as long as Rolex doesn't hit $10,000) that would be beyond my ability to justify.

As an aside. I think Tudor is being positioned into the new past Rolex of quality tool watch, and Rolex proper as the luxury brand that it's been trying to become.




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#36 ·
This is really getting off topic....

But....

This I think has been one of my best threads. The few threads I've started along with the posts fellow members have responded to, and the threads I've read, have made this quite interesting. LeeK has been very insightful and made some great insights into what I don't want to be or give up in my quest for FI.

I have a joy and a love of my family that I'm happy to "sacrifice" for. 1st world sacrifices though. I'm kind of whining about why I shouldn't buy a Rolex, or that a Tudor ($2500 value) doesn't satisfy. Or why a mm300 vs a Doxa? Really I'm very blessed and lucky to enjoy what I have.

I'm placing an assumption here, that a person who gets hooked on these watches sees them more that watches. I've read the Wabi Sabi book and get the idea that an object takes on a life through the naturally occurring wear one places onto and into the object. As a Westerner, I would simply have called this antiquing before. Now I get that the physical process of "wear" is the beauty of the object as it ages with the wearer. To me, this is a watch. Something worn daily to impute myself. A well worn life. I worry about "luxury" and appearing ostentatious, but forget to enjoy the "wearing."

The most important part of owning the watch to me is the wearing of the watch. Not necessarily to tell time, but to make it heirloom worthy. As someone responded, that these expensive watches should be worn and can't understand spending the money and not wearing them. It is just a watch as someone told me, and that is true it's just a watch the same way many on here have their Dad's or Grandfather's watches. Or but vintage and embrace the adventures that watch had. I need to give my Tudor adventures instead of worrying about trade in value on a Rolex Sub. I can buy out right a Sub for cash better than a trade in and up deal.

As a WIS the mantra seems to be popular to get the Sub first, and get what you want first to save money. I'm starting to like all of them that I have brought up and own now. I thought as an FI pursuer I'd need to be a minimalist, but that's being a Pharisee and legalistic and taking the joy out of something I enjoy. I'm not attached materialistic ally or over consuming these machines. I enjoy the mechanical aspect of telling time, the design, the aesthetic, and how I feel wearing them (ready for adventure) (okay, like James Bond).

I didn't buy a Sub the first purchase. I bought a Rolex Explorer 214270 that I didn't like. I mean I just didn't like it, after forcing myself to like it enough to make the purchase. I flipped that for the Black bay and cash, because I liked the black bay more than the explorer and didn't have enough to get into a Sub my fears of wearing s Rolex around town. Now... And these threads, have really helped.... these things are expensive in a world wide view (a SKX is someone's luxury watch, when you tell someone it costs almost $200 they flip). So I know that I would love a Sub C in the near future, I just don't want to have to worry about it in a financial sense of thinking I would need to sell it if things don't pan out, but once I get there, it will be fun to wear. Along with these other iconic dive watches. And the Tudor Black Bay will be iconic to me, as well as the SKX and what ever I decide to buy in the mean time like the mm300 or a Doxa. These watches look like they should have been in Jaws. Or on the wrist of Robert Redford (I think a Doxa was in the Day of the Condor) and Jaques Cousteau.

The main issue in all this is I really need to take my watch I currently own and this next purchase on a trip to actually "adventure" with it, like a beach and get dive lessons, or go sailing, or fishing with my dad. Make it priceless instead of "trade in value." That way instead of teaching my sons that I denied fun and enjoyment of the things that mattered to reach FI, they can remember that we all made FI without sacrificing what really is important. Not wearing it makes it an idol to be hoarded not worn and risked like it should be (a lot like life).




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#37 ·
I alternate wearing a Rolex Sea Dweller I bought about 12 years ago, Seiko MM I picked up in a forum about a year ago and a Seiko Tuna.

Nothing is a Rolex except a Rolex, good or bad, they are their own animal and if that's what you want nothing else will satisfy.

I love my MM, wear it on a Greg Stevens strap or an Isoframe,
Very comfortable and very accurate. As for service - Jack at International Watch Works does amazing work if you ever need it.

Having said all that I'm now looking to add a Doxa to my collection


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#38 ·
Thank you simonp67.

What's really starting to rise to the surface in all of this is I'm really digging my Tudor black bay, and my Seiko SKX007. I've been looking at SubC pictures all over the Internet and Instagram, let alone in person every once in a great while, and I'll admit something.... I think I like that 5513 look with painted plots and aluminum insert and not the very shiny everything on the SubC. It's almost clinical in a way (to me). The black bay is a little this way for me now that I've caught on, but the snowflake hands and aluminum insert skew towards the look, the mm300 had that Seiko kind of "ugly" beauty. I think a scuffed up bezel on that mm300 would be okay and show the wabi. Like it's meant to be dinged up. The Doxas, to me, look like they are the true reissues from the 70s. And again, look better beaten up a bit.

Again I dont own the SubC, but am really starting to even out on the lusting for one. I'm at that, I'd like to own one, but I'm not pursuing it right now stage. The fever has reduced to 98.6.

But these mm300s and Doxas are more tempting in a "fun to wear" kind of way, don't worry about service, just wear them and fix them when the time comes. And the replies have been great here. These watches are meant to be worn and I should enjoy what I'm wearing.

In the could Omega be Rolex in 20 years thread, someone posted that they don't buy Rolexes because their Parents would give him grief about it. That would be me too, let alone the "fear" of wearing one and it getting noticed by my client families. And I care about not showing off, even though I know it's not really. People in my town will buy what I call expensive cars, but a lot of them are GM employees buying Cadillacs on discount or giant trucks, but wear their timex and Walmart fit bits. I know I could make the argument and justification, I just don't want to have to be put into a position to justify and it would happen, but I wouldn't happen with my Tudor, a Seiko, a Doxa, or as was mentioned a JLC or even an AP royal oak in platinum. Like was mentioned the plan should be to own one and wear the g shock as a daily, and the Sub when I'm not at work. That would be it, for the near future until I would be free from having to care about public of family perception. That's why I think all these watches would be fun, I'll just try to pick up a mm300 and a Doxa and save up for the sub, and await a cool vintage one like a 1980 birth year 1680 or 5513.


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#39 ·
My elder business partner would flip if he found out what it was anyway. He wouldn't know what it was, but his friends in town, if they knew, would make a comment, and then that would be that.

I know this sounds bad, but I would guess he's one of the wealthiest people in the county, yet it kills him that people think so. That Doctors driving Buick post thing. He's it. But I also get where he's coming from too. Don't cause offense to people who don't accept it. Don't make people feel bad because of perceptions of wealth.

As funeral directors we serve our small economically depressed town. There are a lot of wealthy baby boomers, but after them, there is a lot of poverty and few job opportunities due to 2 factories that shut down in the 2000s. We accept everyone here and we try to be all things for all our client families that our firm has served since 1958, when he and his father started in our town. No one will care about a new Seiko even a larger watch like the mm300, or a Doxa or my SKX, or my Tudor. And not Rolex, once I'm free from "having" to earn an income. I'll work, but I'll be free from having to care about people pleasing with what I buy or what car I drive.


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#44 ·
I've got both a Submariner (no date 114060) as well as the sub 300 50th sharkhunter. They are very different watches. I personally love them both for what they are. I find the Submariner to be more versatile as it is a bit dressier, but the sub 300 is a more hardcore tool watch. The Submariner was my grail, so if you have to choose just one, I'd go with the Submariner.
 
#45 ·
I agree with most of the previous posts: get insurance on your watches-it's not that expensive and you can be worry-free. I'm like you w/the Rolex Submariner in that the money seems like a fortune for one watch, but in the meanwhile I've spent way more on a large quantity of watches. So, for you is it a collecting(buying) itch or an itch for a particular watch. If it's the latter, I would bite the bullet and get the sub. If you like collecting a variety of watches get the Doxa or the 300MM, and that's a tough choice. I have 4 Seikos and 3 Doxas, so I'm covering all the bases. You could get a good used Grand Seiko dive watch for fairly close to the 300MM new price, and the Doxa is the same price, or very close to it. I think the Doxa, especially the Sharkhunter or Searambler, is more versatile if you're wearing a shirt with cuffs. I love your choices-you can't go wrong.
 
#46 ·
Getting back to my thread after some time for more thoughts and the posts that have been made. I keep almost being of two minds. Now granted I'm no longer consumed with watch fever, but I've come to realize that I like many different watches and I'm a collector. I've thought I could have been a "minimalist" and been the one watch type person, but I like so many different designs.

To plunge for the Submariner is beyond my goals for now. It's not really my Grail. There I admit it. I don't lust for a Rolex Submariner. I would like to own one, but to be an object of focusing my resources to pursue is no longer my objective. I'll wait for the proper time when I've reached my Financial Goals, and when a good deal presents itself. As an aside, I do take a curmudgeon approach to second hand Rolex Sub prices, that they are in a bubble and that the bubble will burst. One day soon the second hand SubC will be priced more in line with what I'm willing to pay and justify to myself. I'd also like to see what they do in the next iteration, which we are closer to seeing in the coming years. I'll hold my Sub cash as a cash position.

But in regards to the MM300, Doxa 1200t, and my own Tudor BBBlue ETA. Each one I like as well as the Subs I've handled. Not having touched a MM300 or a Doxa, I own the Tudor and I can say it's basically (to me) quality between the old Sub, and the new Sub. If the Doxa and MM300 are in that quality range, than I'll be happy. And they can be worn and I don't have to worry about them as having to insure them or worry about losing one of them. Sure I may have Sub money in the 3, but not sub money on the wrist while wearing one of them at a time. And they could each one get WIS cred that I care about more than impressing for the wrong reasons with a Sub or offending some of those who might know Rolex. Once I reach FI, I won't care what people think, but those people currently pay me to do funerals for them. They won't care a lick about a Seiko, Tudor, or a Doxa, or that I wear dive watches not dress watches anyway. But a Rolex Sub could cause an issue. But I can put that off to when I don't require the judgement of others on my finances.

I'll like them. I like the little quirks of the Doxa that makes it a Doxa Sub. It's own history. The same for the Seiko, the Diver's Dive watch. They seem like fun watches to wear and use as intended, even if for me they will mainly be used while mowing my yard or swimming, and the hiking the trails with my family, hopefully used for some snorkeling and swimming in the Caribbean in a few years on a vacation.
A SubC now would be too much of a worry and a larger financial cost then I can do at once. Sure, I could buy it and wear it sparingly, and not really enjoy it. The others I can enjoy, just like I enjoy my SKX007 and 009, not having to care about taking care of them.

Just some thoughts and the appreciation I have for those who responded.

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#47 ·
I've owned both (and still own my MM300). They're both fantastic watches, and I really enjoyed my time with my 1200T. If you don't mind the size of the MM300, I would have to say it's the better watch both in terms of build quality, bracelet quality, and movement (The mm300 uses an undecorated Grand Seiko movement).

However, if you dig the style of Doxa, nothing else is going to satisfy that desire. Doxa cool is a totally different kind of cool, and is very fun to wear.
 
#48 ·
Hi. I own a 1200T Sharky and a 16610 Sub amongst others. I've had the Sub for 17 years and it ages so well. I have had the Sharky for about 2 years and have worn it about 5 times. It lives in the safe in its Doxa tube ready for when eBay lower their fees. Buy the Sub you won't regret it ever.
 
#50 ·
Thanks for these new replies.

I plan on pursuing the purchase of a sub at some point in the future. Maybe 3-5 years. It's just not a priority.

Thank you for your views on a MM300 and the quality and the Doxa for the style. The Doxa is beautiful in its almost ugliness. Utilitarian yet classic. Unlike a Sinn u1 (what I view as their iconic diver) is almost too stark and rather large looking for me. While the mm300 is chunky, I think it looks like it wears smaller than its dimensions. I think both would be fun, the question is which one first? Or try for the 50th anniversary Doxa Sharks or Sea Rambler, and get an ETA COSC vs the SW200-1 of the 1200t? That would change the order or purchase.


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#53 ·
I've enjoyed reading this thread. I understand your position and I think you're doing the wise thing. Wait for the Sub. I like the Sub as well and want to get one someday. I don't see myself buying a new one from an AD. I bought my Rolex GMT from a reputable dealer here on the sales forum. For what I consider to be well under current market value. Which I'd a great feeling to know if I need to sell then I should be able to get my investment back.
Im reading this thread because I would like to get a Doxa. I don't plan to have a large collection, just a small one of iconic and well known pieces along with some well made smaller micro brands. It's a fun hobby, if you're smart and patient decent deals come up.
 
#56 ·
I too like reading threads on decisions not based on simply "just get the Sub." I try a philosophical approach to make it different. I have found, for myself, that I like the "quirky" traits of these types of watches. First, I keep coming back to dive watches as the design I like most, though I appreciate watches without dive bezels. I like a Submariner, but not the Explorer 1. Between 1960's Doxa and the first Seiko divers (along with the 6105) have as much history as the Rolex. Even with Doxa changing ownership over the decades, today they maintain that historic look and function. I'm not planning on ever diving soon, maybe some day, but having that on my wrist while swimming with my kids or hiking the forest trails would still have that "adventuresome" feel. That's what these dive watches are about to me, "do I feel like I could be in a dangerous place in 24 hours and wearing this watch?" Or phrased another way, do I feel manly wearing this watch. Thanks to my adventuring heroes and James Bond, a dive watch has become iconic to me and heroic.

I read somewhere that to live should be to live valiantly. I would add to hope to die valiantly too. To be like 80 year old Caleb and ask for the mountain to conquer as a reward for unwavering faith. I may be putting too much thought into this but, a man's watch, especially one who researches watches, is a bit like a piece of armor. Ritually and meticulously putting it on in the morning and going out into the world to do battle, what ever that may be. I may not be a warrior or a deep sea explorer, but I like their watches.

I'm yet to be decided, but both the Doxa and the MM300 have these characteristics in spades without the "luxury" perception hang ups for me. I know I could look down at either one and not think "gee I wish I had bought the Sub instead." Maybe not the 5513 or even the 14060 or 16610, but today they are both so different from the SubC, that they could all be a part of an iconic dive watch collection. Maybe a Sinn U1 too, but that has a much larger look to it than the mm300.

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#57 ·
I was also going to add that among the "brands" not micro or boutique, there seems to be rather large tier separation. Or at least in watches I'm interested in. There is very little progression. This holds me back a lot too. A scenario that runs from " if I buy this $500 watch then that blows $500 of the budget for the $2000 watch, which then eats at the budget of the $5,000 second hand Sub, which cuts deep into the new SubC of $7500 with the better clasp. This thinking is what I would imagine keeps many budget minded WIS from going for watches they may like without knowing if they would have ever enjoyed them. The fact that I now can face the fact that for me in this season of my financial life a $5000 second hand Sub is too much, let alone $7k for a SubC. Why not embrace my reluctance to splurge and instead enjoy a quality piece that I know I can afford. I know I can't enjoy $7k on my wrist. I do know that I'll wear my skx doing anything rugged. So if I can get a watch that can be fixed if I damage it, has the quality and heritage I desire, and might hurt a little if it gets damaged, yet not feel embarrassed to insure it, then I can accept that with a $2K watch. For some that could be a $200 watch, other a $20,000 watch. But for myself, I can live with that, and enjoy wearing a quality watch that can last my lifetime, be repaired and serviced, and be a joy to wear.


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#58 ·
10 years ago, I sold my Doxa 600T, kept all my Rolex and Omega and stopped purchasing new major watches and got busy other higher priorities in life. Now I have a Doxa sub300 50th Anv, a Submariner LV 50th Anv, a MM1000 50th Anv release,...These are just materials (expensive man jewelries) and won't bring happiness. If I have to choose 1 watch to wear on my motorcycle trip around the world, it would be just a G-shox. 2 years ago I rode to Alaska, I didn't care about the watch, the experience was overwhelming that no watch can compare.
 

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#62 ·
I don't own the 1200t yet, but, I do have a large wrist. In not going into a lot of detail, I am 6'2 with long arms, which to me makes my forearm and wrist look narrow. It's 7.25, yet a 35mm Nomos Orion looks just right. My Tudor BBB at 41 looks good too. To me the dial size is what throws a watch off. I had a 39mm Explorer 214270 (short hands) and I thought it was too big because of the dial. With the 1200t it looks to work on dial proportions and case size. I would think a more tapered bracelet like the 300 anniversary would look good on it too.

With the Seiko mm300, or the Doxa, I only wish I could see them in person. But that's what I read a lot in regards to them on the forums.

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#63 ·
Jalfreem, I loved reading your post and hearing your thoughts on these two watches. I have recently begun to consider the MM300 as my mid-tier grail watch as well. I am a Seiko fan boy and this watch just represents the next level of Seiko quality and history to me, and IMO it looks so damn good. My other option is a Omega SMPc or 2354.50 model, but I would like to stop into a boutique and try one of those on first to see it in the metal. I also like the Doxa for what they are but in my opinion those watches are a little too toolish for what I am looking for to wear to the office. Doxa's have the look that belongs on the beach, on a boat, underwater, in an adventure, etc. I'm sure it's their Jauque Cousteau history and association with Dirk Pitt stories that gives me that impression but none the less it's now stuck in my mind. Besides, personally I have a Gen 1 Seiko Orange Monster which scratches my Doxa itch, so I'm good there. My opinion is to go for the MM300. I think the Doxa could look out of place with a suit and at a funeral home but I think the MM300 has the look that can go from beach to boardroom and not look out of place. I have also been watching second hand MM300 sales on watchrecon and they pop up quite often for $1400-1600 and go quickly, so if you try it and it's not the one you should have no trouble flipping it quickly. Good luck in your decision.

Oh, just curious where you live in Indiana, I am in south Bend.
 
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