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  1. #21
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    Re: Doxa 1200T (seed planted by The Grey NATO) or a Seiko mm300.

    Pertinent to my thread, Clock Stock & Barrel posted a YouTube video on this very question, back on March 16. Just found it.


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  2. #22
    DOXA Forum Moderator subkrawler's Avatar
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    Re: Doxa 1200T (seed planted by The Grey NATO) or a Seiko mm300.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalfreem View Post
    I was hoping someone would say that the Doxa or mm300 beat the Rolex Submariner out of the water. I'm getting the impression that they don't. And won't make me happy.
    I guess I have a different take on all of this. I have three Rolex divers that I've bought/acquired over the past 17 years. I started with a 16600 Sea Dweller, then received a 16610LV as a gift. My final one was a NOS 14060M (non-COSC) found at an independent Rolex AD that had just lost their AD status, so they were liquidating their inventory. With all of those pieces, that hold some sort of sentimental or fun memory, the truth is...I never wear them. I wear a DOXA Sub every day.

    Why? To me they're simply more enjoyable to wear. The history is rich, they're rugged and well built, they're unique, and just sort of fun to look at. To me, it doesn't matter what they're worth, what I could sell them for, or how well they'll hold they're value. I like them because, as far as watches go, they make me happy and that's all that should really matter in this hobby.
    Vlciudoli, jalfreem and parsig9 like this.
    "The most beautiful objects are those built for purpose. Few things are more thrilling than the unrestrained use of tools most have mistaken for luxuries" -unknown

  3. #23
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    Re: Doxa 1200T (seed planted by The Grey NATO) or a Seiko mm300.

    Quote Originally Posted by subkrawler View Post
    I guess I have a different take on all of this. I have three Rolex divers that I've bought/acquired over the past 17 years. I started with a 16600 Sea Dweller, then received a 16610LV as a gift. My final one was a NOS 14060M (non-COSC) found at an independent Rolex AD that had just lost their AD status, so they were liquidating their inventory. With all of those pieces, that hold some sort of sentimental or fun memory, the truth is...I never wear them. I wear a DOXA Sub every day.

    Why? To me they're simply more enjoyable to wear. The history is rich, they're rugged and well built, they're unique, and just sort of fun to look at. To me, it doesn't matter what they're worth, what I could sell them for, or how well they'll hold they're value. I like them because, as far as watches go, they make me happy and that's all that should really matter in this hobby.
    Very well put. My ultimate goal is to being a 2 watch person. Hoping to give watch heirlooms to my sons. The Doxa has that history (even if resurrected post Quartz crisis) to me it had that "adventure" factor. The Grey NATO hosts love Doxa for this heritage and their ruggedness. They have also mention the mm300. Of course the submariner too.

    Someone once responded, that I was being a bit neurotic. While I would argue that we are participating in a forum designed to discuss all things watch is along those lines. I come off that way sometimes because of all the great choices. There are too many great offerings. Like many, I like to research these watches and discover what I can before spending my money. I think I've laid out my own "purchasing issues." I got into this hobby at the wrong point in my life. If I had not stumbled upon the Dive Watches a few years ago, instead of a few years from now, then I wouldn't be on here asking annoying questions.

    And you have answered with what I was hoping for. The Doxa is a tough watch that you like and you feel great about wearing because you don't have to worry about it. Thank you.




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  4. #24
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    Re: Doxa 1200T (seed planted by The Grey NATO) or a Seiko mm300.

    So I'll layout some more thoughts. Again to promote discussion. (I'm not trying to be cynical or goad anyone to their choice of watch, only to get a better sense of finding what I want).

    As per a few responses on this thread, along with just about every other thread question that I have posted, the Rolex Submariner will be my purchase, at the time I have the funds but am also mortgage free. (Personal finance is my other hobby, juxtaposed to quality watches). Referring to my previous post that I technically have the funds with flipping my collection and adding some cash I have. Yet, on the financial losses side of this "flipping", I'm losing on my Tudor and my Nomos. (In selling my Seikos and Squale I'm doing well on the flip). All purchased before my personal finance revelation.

    While I've been lucky in having good basic financial basics like avoiding consumer debt and healthy savings, it's the freedom from mortgage and being independent from "having" to work that I should have pursued. I could have been "retired" by now.

    Anyway, a major watch purchase of a $7k right now would be too much. I've already lost value on the black bay, (yet the ETA version on the second hand market seems to be creeping up.) But it's also a great watch and would make a good heirloom in the future. It doesn't have to be a Rolex to have been Dad's watch. If I got the new rivet bracelet and the Pelagos clasp it would be killer. By not flipping it, I'm not out anything. Once I've got the rest sold, I'm close to that $1800 range.

    The other aspect that I haven't discussed is that I gravitate to the more 70s tool watch atheistic too. Since I have a Black Bay, and the dress watch Nomos Orion, which would compliment these in a 3 piece collection and be easily serviced. I know the mm300 gets lots of love as has been discussed, but I believe that I could take a Doxa Sharkhunter 1200T to my local watch maker and he could service it and check the gaskets. Could he get parts from Doxa? I know he would have to send a Seiko mm300 on to Seiko.

    I guess what I'm asking now is, since I like the 70s vintage cool design of both the Doxa and the Seiko, which would compliment my Tudor black bay it a future Rolex Sub, and which would give me less hassle in servicing, knowing that the watchmaker closest to driving distance is 2 hours car drive away.


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  5. #25
    Member Ray916MN's Avatar
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    Re: Doxa 1200T (seed planted by The Grey NATO) or a Seiko mm300.

    Given the description of what you're looking for, I wouldn't buy a Doxa or a MM300. I'd buy an Omega 200M SHOM (166.0177). These are widely available at present assembled from genuine Omega parts in the same price range. They are not a throwback homage to a model with a significant dive history, they are a watch with a significant dive history (SHOM or Sham?: Omega's 200 meter diver from the 70's - worn&wound) and are serviceable by any decent watchmaker with an account at an Omega parts house or if you like Omega will service these at the factory. There is debate about whether they were offered from the factory in Destro crown orientation, but they can be put together this way, making them even more toolish and unique.



    From a long term perspective, although I own throwback homage versions of Doxas (5000T) and Seikos (MM300), I only own them because I don't want to subject my originals, pre-Synchron 300T and 6159-7000 to regular wear. The opportunity with the SHOM in today's market is to not only buy a watch with real dive historic cred, but to buy one in NOS condition and to even buy the spare parts to restore it to original condition, so that after you subject it to decades of regular wear, you will have everything you need to economically restore it to original condition if you want to. This opportunity will not exist forever.

  6. #26
    DOXA Forum Moderator subkrawler's Avatar
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    Re: Doxa 1200T (seed planted by The Grey NATO) or a Seiko mm300.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalfreem View Post
    I guess what I'm asking now is, since I like the 70s vintage cool design of both the Doxa and the Seiko, which would compliment my Tudor black bay it a future Rolex Sub, and which would give me less hassle in servicing, knowing that the watchmaker closest to driving distance is 2 hours car drive away.
    Personally, if I were you and were only going to have three watches in my collection, the MM300 wouldn't be unique enough.
    "The most beautiful objects are those built for purpose. Few things are more thrilling than the unrestrained use of tools most have mistaken for luxuries" -unknown

  7. #27
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    Re: Doxa 1200T (seed planted by The Grey NATO) or a Seiko mm300.

    After my foray into the Buy Watches or Save for retirement thread, and me getting to papal on my view of Financial Independence, I am revisiting this decision. its actually interesting how two of my main topics of interest crossed paths on the watch forums. The other thread was more inline with the Jack Vogel and Vanguard forums, Bogel Heads. I have read the Money or Your Life, the Millionaire Next Door, 4 Pillars of Common Sense Investing, Stop Acting Rich, along with the principles of good stewardship outlined in my faith (but Im not proselytizing here), its just what I strive to do in order to find that "balance" that keeps getting thrown out daily by TV, talking heads, and even members on the forum.

    But, rhetorically, why isn't seeking to be free from debt, have the enough wealth saved to go without a job for an extended period of time ( a year or more while seeking employment) and then enough invested to be job free as early as I and family can. Rolex Submariners and FI (financial independence) can go hand in hand to me, its just that the FI comes first and the Rolex Sub comes second. With my income (2 worker household) we can achieve this, being free from a mortgage in a few years, we drive used paid for cars, and have a I'm and owner in my own business. The reasons why I seek this is to help others, help my children, let my wife quit work and do what she wants if she wants to, and hopefully be salary free in my firm so that way I can give a job to someone like was done for me. A Rolex Submariner to me is a very expensive watch relative to my income. To own one makes me more financially fragile. The arguments of it being like cash may be true, but to me why not just have the cash and not risk loosing on the flip or having to flip. I have great faith that my family can weather dire economic circumstances, yet I've gone through the 2001 crash and the 2007-2008 crash, have parents that talked about the 1970s and being laid off a lot, and had Grandparents that all grew up in the Depression on a Farm. To just be talking about buying a $7-10,000 watch would be insanity to them, let alone a $2000 watch.

    But... my covetous heart makes justifications.... a well made $2000 is still a great watch. The MM300 is always being compared to a Rolex Sub and touted as a viable alternative or replacement. Is mainly made by Japanese (maybe some Malaysian, I read that on here once) but mainly made by ethically paid workers, and is what the "CPI" inflation (that i get flamed about for usin) is adjusted to when you compare the $120 dollar Rolex Sub of the 1960s and early 70s or a 62mas of the same era, should cost in today's money. Tudor Black Bay is the true non luxury Submariner, yet is still a little into luxury territory. Its still stainless steel, has sapphire, and a top of the line movement that is either ETA Top Grade, or now Rolex spec'd In-house with free sprung balance. Since I have this watch and would like to add another using my enjoyment money that I set aside (my wife does too) to purchase another watch, I would like to try the mm300. It doesn't seem to lose much second hand if I flipped it and I may end up loving it. I could save and save for a Rolex Submariner, but I get to a point where I could have two great dive watches, the Tudor Black Bay and a MM300 for less than the SubC anyway. I know I wouldn't wear the SubC until I was Financially Independent anyway. I will save for that Rolex over time, and meanwhile scratch the fun side and try the mm300. Cull my existing collection (already sold a Sarb033 and a Squale 20 atoms) maybe keep the SKX007 but sell the 009, and replace them with the mm300. I like the way it looks better than the Doxa. Thank you all.

  8. #28
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    Re: Doxa 1200T (seed planted by The Grey NATO) or a Seiko mm300.

    jalfreem,

    I've been perusing most of your threads weighing and measuring the pursuit of a passionate, practical watch. Your reasoning resonates well with me.
    I have much the same thoughts about Rolex Sub- beautiful, strong, storied, etc. But I just don't want to deal with the whole "Oh, a Rolex, is that real?" phenomenon. Plus the money involved is just plain stupid! I'm sorry, I know wealth is relative, but $7k for a watch? I have a hard enough time justifying ~2k for a MM300.
    All that being said the watch I ended up choosing to fulfill the role of (semi) practical, elegant, one watch do-it-all, toolish, unique, heirloom worthy, etc, etc, etc is the MarineMaster 300! Mine should arrive tomorrow. I feel that the SBDX017 is the equal of the rolex Sub in most ways, is more unique in many ways, has passion, strength, and fairly importantly for me is somewhat under the radar.
    In short-my recommendation is get a MM300!
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  9. #29
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    Re: Doxa 1200T (seed planted by The Grey NATO) or a Seiko mm300.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalfreem View Post
    yet that investing $7k in 20 years at 6% (average) compound interest is $22,000.
    Interesting post. I'm a "numbers guy" myself and tend to be more rational than most. BUT this whole watch hobby is the epitome of irrational to me. It makes no sense. What I SHOULD do is get an Apple Watch and call it a day. More accurate, sufficiently water resistant, and TONS more functional than any mechanical watch. But I intentionally didn't buy the Apple Watch because I know if I do, I'll wear it every day and all my watches would never be touched. I don't spend a lot of money in general, but this is one of the few things I don't mind splurging a bit on. If you want to calculate compound interest and inflation and resale value, you might as well get out of the hobby.

    Regarding the watches you're asking about, I have the MM300 (huge for me) and tried on a Doxa 1200T (didn't buy it). I bought the MM300 because it seemed unique to me, even if it looks plain. I like Seiko in general and this was kind of the epitome of the Seiko diver (non-GS). Doxa was unique as well, but it was *too* bold. Not versatile. I have a Seiko Monster which I think fills the same niche. The Sub-date I have is the most versatile of the 3 watches to me, but the pricing has gotten so out of hand that I wouldn't get a Sub at this point. Like you said, too good $2-3K watches out there.
    jalfreem and Cycletroll like this.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Doxa 1200T (seed planted by The Grey NATO) or a Seiko mm300.

    It's hard to describe my irrational watch hobby vs my FI hobby. My job, which I apologize for droning all the time about, is 100% sporadic and "on call." As a funeral director, unless you are one, no one knows all that we do or the time commitment. It is actually quite normal "working" hours in that when we are busy, it seems to be 24/7 for a month or two, then when it's slow, it's agonizingly slow with nothing to do but catch up on insurance paper work. So, between working hours vs non working hours it evens out over a year. Some days I work 15 hours and others I may work 3. Yet I'm still on call and geographically tied down to within a few minutes from getting to the Funeral home to go out on a call. Since my hobby up until 2013 racing bicycles, I decided to quite riding all together after discovering Paleo diet and body weight exercising, and the time required to ride after work was eating into being a present father and husband. I chose the better father and husband. Never did my wife indicate it was a problem, I was just getting too worn out to do it all. Since my days are tied to the funeral home, my adventurous spirit gravitated to adventurous watches. I went from crazy cyclist to WIS.

    After I knew the Rolex Sub was the one I gravitated too, I discover Financial Independence and that a guy like me could study it and hopefully achieve it. A SubC kind of cuts into FI funds a bit too much. Why FI for me and not a SubC now. Because I want to wear that SubC on beach somewhere some time, or take it up to Mt Baker or on the Appalachian trail, maybe on a fishing trip with my dad and my sons. And I can't do those things now, I can only get away when I'm no longer a Funeral Director. Hence the pursuit of FI.

    I, along with my sister and a 78 year old founder of the firm are it for my firm. She and I are acquiring the firm from him. So, as a small business owner in a small town we do everything ourselves and are bootstrapping, trying to establish our brand within the already existing one. We are the millennials who work, like a lot of us out there who see what it takes to build something. We don't have the time to build a lifestyle brand, we are living a lifestyle brand, I am never not on the job, I'm always a funeral director representing my firm everywhere I go. This is why a lot of my posts and threads deal with the fear of wearing a Rolex for is social stigma as "luxury."

    But through this neurotic process (as someone called it on a different thread) watch appreciation became a way to distract me a little and somewhat a hobby in scheming to budget for watches I like without messing with my FI goals. It's okay to have some play money in FI and my wife and I never live in depriving fun, just depriving things we don't need. So, collecting a few watches is okay with us. That's why the Rolex Sub is out for now. I can buy it and be done with it, but I can't have anything else. Being that I'd have to flip what I do have a Tudor Black bay and a Nomos, I would lose so much on the sales to not justify getting rid of two watches that I like on their own merits. The Tudor is a Submariner, just as capable of being a "desk diver" or "casket scratcher" in my work environment, as the Rolex. The Nomos is the subdued serious watch for more sartorial situations. And I can still afford one more, cool in my book, diver/spots watch to complement them. I have 2 sons and can gift them each a dive watch when the time comes (hopefully, all things considered, it might not work out, I'm a bit stoic). The Rolex Sub would be a depriving myself of enjoying the cool watches that are out there. It would be too babied by me until I was FI. Once FI comes, saving for one would be no problem and I wouldn't have to justify the purchase, because why would I ever need to sell it! These mm300s, Doxa, and maybe branch out to second hand Omega SMPs like a 2254 or even a SMPc.

    Thanks for readying my journal post. This may not help you all, but it does me.


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