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Accuracy of High End in house movement vs Non-High end

6K views 23 replies 14 participants last post by  GrouchoM 
#1 ·
How does the accuracy of your high-end in-house movement compare to non-high end in-house or ETA/Sellita movement? Are they adjusted better for accuracy, same or worse?
 
#8 ·
Well, first, there are grades of ETA movement. The best ones are more accurate than the low grade ones and tend to be better adjusted.

Second, "non-high end in-house" vs "high end on-house" isn't the cut and dried thing you might want.

A Rolex Day Date 40 with the new 3255 movement has a stated accuracy range of +2/-2. Some would argue that's not high end, but either way, it will blow a cheap mechanical fashion watch with a crappy and poorly adjusted movement out of the water for accuracy. An FP Journe has the same accuracy as the Rolex and is indeed going to have a well-adjusted, high end movement. A Kenneth Cole automatic isn't going to be close for $120. A Raymond Weil with an ETA listing for $1200 isn't there, either, but maybe an extra 5 seconds a day isn't a big deal.

For the "are they adjusted better for accuracy?" question: You can indeed find higher end watch companies that show way better adjustment than a low-grade ETA clone in a cheap mechanical.

That used to be the difference. Most watch companies would buy ebauches from JLC or whoever and the higher end companies would do a lot of refinishing and adjust the heck out of it and there was your VC or whatever while the same ebauche from JLC would be less well finished and adjusted.

Conversely, a Tudor with a high grade ETA which has been altered and well adjusted by Rolex will be more accurate than many a hugely expensive in-house tourbillon.

So, yeah, the questions are a bit overly broad to derive meaningful answers.
 
#9 · (Edited)
The concept of "the accuracy" you probably was trying to talk about, is an ambiguous thing.

Accuracy is the ability of keeping time as measured against whatever external standard. A watch can lose 15s during day time and gain 15 over night so the owner is very happy with it being spot on next morning while it probably sucks from a watchmakers perspective. And different people can have different opinions on the accuracy of the same watch depending on how they use it. In fact, its reading is relatively trivial and would better be considered as a by product of "precision".

Precision is how well a watch is adjusted to positions, temperature and isochronism, a thing that takes a well engineered movement and a very skilled matchmaker to obtain. It's all about the compromises and balances and sometimes can cost a good reading of accuracy.

High end watches are more likely to be precise (movement engineering & watchmaker's adjustment skill), but are just not necessarily so.
Precise watches are more likely to be accurate, but are just not necessarily so.
So to your question, high end watches are more likely to be accurate, but are just not necessarily so.
 
#10 ·
Right as Sean stated my high end watches are more consistent than low end.
If a high end watch is fast 4 sec a day... My experience is that it stays that way. When I owned a few omegas they were very consistent regardless of position.
My low end watches - ETA, Seikos etc. have much more variance for some reason... Dial up, crown down, etc sometime fast or slow, etc.
anyway that's been my experience.
 
#11 ·
I was looking into some of the JLC ebauche and high end brands like VS and AP.

It looks like the following watches have the same layout and possibly the same movement:
JLC Master Geographic
VC Overseas Dual Time
AP Royal Oak Dual Time

Anyone knows if they all use the same JLC movement? If yes, would your choice among these 3 watches come down to a matter of price vs aesthetic? Or would you consider the movement in AP/VC to be superior because it is better adjusted?
 
#12 · (Edited)
I was looking into some of the JLC ebauche and high end brands like VS and AP.

It looks like the following watches have the same layout and possibly the same movement:
JLC Master Geographic
VC Overseas Dual Time
AP Royal Oak Dual Time

Anyone knows if they all use the same JLC movement? If yes, would your choice among these 3 watches come down to a matter of price vs aesthetic? Or would you consider the movement in AP/VC to be superior because it is better adjusted?
My decision making process wouldn't ever get me to point of choosing among the three. I know that probably seems odd to you, but that's how I collect...

I think what I'd do were I forced into choosing among multiple major HEW makers' competing offerings is:
  1. Identify why I am buying whatever sort of watch I plan to get.
    • Wear frequency --> daily use, occasional use
    • Sartorial purpose --> fashion statement, sartorial flexibility, etc.
    • Emotional purpose --> "ooh, la la" appeal, "pat on the back," beauty for it's own sake, information reporting for its own sake, mode of operation for its own sake, collecting goal achievement, etc. ("for its own sake" being, say, if it's a moonphase watch I want, I don't care about what phase the moon is in, I just want a watch that will display that piece of information)
    • Assured use functional purpose(s) --> all I'll truly do is tell time (local and/or multiple zones) with it; I know I'll use it to to measure XYZ, I know I will regularly use it to remind me of XYZ (say, that it's time to start, end, go to/leave a meeting)
  2. Identify what type of watch -- simple, complicated (if so what complication), grand complication, digital, quartz, mechanical, etc.
  3. Go watch shopping at HEW stores and find out who offers what, how it feels on my wrist, can I read the damn thing, is it easy or hard to operate, will it take me forever to wind the thing, etc.
  4. Choose one based on the following:
    1. Aesthetics....if that alone doesn't do it for me, I move on to the next priority.
    2. Functional qualities experienced while trying on watches...if not that, I move on to the next priority.
    3. Intangible qualities....if the two together don't seal the deal, I move to the next priority.
    4. Service factors....if this won't do it, I move on to the next priority.
    5. Price....I'd buy the least expensive one if the watches under consideration are, as shown by my having no preference on the traits above, equal in my mind.
Looking at my prioritization, what's important isn't the ranking of my priorities, or even what they are, but that I know what my priorities are and thus can rank them.

As for the watches in question, I don't know the answer off the top of my head. AP and VC certainly have used JLC ebauches in both ROs and VCOs, respectively, AP still does for one version of the RO, the Extra Thin, as well as on a JA model labelled as Ultra Thin. AP developed it's own movement (3120) for the 154xx versions of the RO, but the 15200 still uses the JLC-based movement (2120). I believe VC developed its own movement for the most recent, "old" basic Overseas and they may have deployed it as the basis for the complicated versions...I don't know.

What I do know is that while the very slightest variation in movement results in a new caliber identifier, few watches (and watchmakers) deliver movements built "from the ground up" for each movement type in which they come. Business economies of scale require that more often they build upon a solid base movement to create complicated ones. When they do build it from the ground up, the watch/movement will be the one used for future versions of simple and complicated watches, or it'll be very expensive, even considering that we are talking about HEW watches. (e.g., ALS' Zeitwerk, which, strictly speaking, is an uncomplicated watch that starts at $60K and goes up in big steps.)

It's no different, say with cars. (which is why the car analogy is so often apt, even though it's not always germane) Take BMW's basic 3-Series engines...they are the exact same motors that show up in the one, two, four, five, six, and seven series models. The motor in the M3/M4, however, is a different beast, although that motor too appears in "higher number" M models, and that it's a unique thing built from the ground up and placed in fewer vehicles is reflected in its price.

I'll offer this: Google is your friend. Just Google the name and check out what you get as results. Also try Googling the watch model followed by the word "movement" or "ebauche." You'll probably find the answer to your question, but even if you don't, you'll find specific info on things that may be of interest and import to you.

Just be sure to check the maker's website to confirm what the current caliber inside the watch is (assuming you intend to buy new), or contact the seller and ask (if you intend to buy pre-owned).

All the best.

A simple life is not seeing how little we can get by with -- that's poverty -- but how efficiently we can put first things first....When you're clear about your purpose and your priorities, you can painlessly discard whatever does not support them.
― Victoria Moran, Lit From Within: Tending Your Soul For Lifelong Beauty
 
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#15 ·
It really varies in terms of accuracy. Some of my crappy Chinese watches keep fantastic time (like 5 seconds per day good) whilst some of the Swiss ones aren't as accurate. One of my in house watches (JLC) is in need of a good service because that is about -30 seconds per day.

It it doesn't bother me too much because I change watches that often that I rarely need them to be functioning very accurately
 
#17 · (Edited)
Personal experience: a high end watch I currently own has a better accuracy than ETA movements... or so I'm guessing since I've never measured timekeeping of an ETA watch I once owned (currently have none). More importantly, and this is what watchmakers actually care more about than accuracy; it has an excellent consistency.

My watch, a manual wind, has a power reserve of exactly 116 hours, and for the first 72 hours (3 days, which is the advertised amount of correct usage time by the brand), the watch has an exact timekeeping of +4 seconds every day. Like, super exact. Plus, +4 seconds every day fits well within the COSC range, which is from -4 to +6 seconds. My watch is also adjusted to six positions, and the timekeeping does not change at all at five different positions that I got to test it on over a week. Too lazy to test it on the last position, which I remember correct was dial faced down.

On average I'd say high end in-house movements tends to have better accuracy than ETA, especially in terms of consistency rates. This is especially applied to watches with position adjustments (which lots of high end movements have). However, note that I have no personal experience with measuring the timekeeping of ETAs, and I think automatic movements are not that directly comparable to high end manuals, because of their different methods of charging the main barrel. As the main barrel becomes discharged, the word on the street is that the consistency rates change because of the uneven tension going into the hairspring. Automatic movements are charged up in irregular rates, hence you get my point. While my manual wind gains +4 everyday, the ETA automatic could gain +8 on the first day, -3 on the second day, wound up enough next day and gains +7, -6 next day, so forth. Eventually it could have gained something like +2 seconds in a week, but consistency rates had been unstable. It is my understandings watchmakers view it as a much horrible option compared to gaining(+/-) constant amount of time everyday.

But then to be fair, my watch has a movement designed by an AHCI, who is, in easy terms, a super duper watchmaker. I'm sure other super dupers design movements for high end brands too, so I'd say high end brands in general are all awesome. However, I would say I'm not sure about relatively low priced in-house movements, such as the manufacture caliber from Frederique Constant, and etc.
 
#18 ·
Then this is :
Comparing the Rate Tolerances (Average Daily Rate Requirements):

Quality Mark - Average Daily Rate Tolerance (seconds/day)*

COSC Certificate: -4 to +6

Geneva Seal: -8.6 to +8.6

Fleurier Quality Foundation Seal: 0 to +5

Besançon Observatory Certificate: -4 to +6

Glashütte Observatory Certificate: -4 to +6

Patek Philippe Seal: -3 to +2

Grand Seiko Certificate: -3 to +5

Ulysse Nardin Certificate: -2 to +6

Richard Mille Certificate: -1 to +1

I hope it can help.
 
#20 ·
Then this is :
Comparing the Rate Tolerances (Average Daily Rate Requirements):

Quality Mark - Average Daily Rate Tolerance (seconds/day)*

COSC Certificate: -4 to +6

Geneva Seal: -8.6 to +8.6

Fleurier Quality Foundation Seal: 0 to +5

Besançon Observatory Certificate: -4 to +6

Glashütte Observatory Certificate: -4 to +6

Patek Philippe Seal: -3 to +2

Grand Seiko Certificate: -3 to +5

Ulysse Nardin Certificate: -2 to +6

Richard Mille Certificate: -1 to +1

I hope it can help.
Clarification:

"Patek's technical requirements are stricter than COSC's. For calibers with diameters of 20 mm or more, the accuracy must be within -3 and +2 seconds per day. For calibers with diameters of less than 20 mm, the accuracy must be within -5 and +4 seconds per day. The requirements for tourbillon watches are even tighter."
-- Source:
https://monochrome-watches.com/watchtime-wednesday-patek-philippe-seal/ -- March 2014
 
#19 ·
How does the accuracy of your high-end in-house movement compare to non-high end in-house or ETA/Sellita movement? Are they adjusted better for accuracy, same or worse?
Then this is :
Comparing the Rate Tolerances (Average Daily Rate Requirements):

Quality Mark ? Average Daily Rate Tolerance (seconds/day)*

COSC Certificate: -4 to +6

Geneva Seal: -8.6 to +8.6

Fleurier Quality Foundation Seal: 0 to +5

Besançon Observatory Certificate: -4 to +6

Glashütte Observatory Certificate: -4 to +6

Patek Philippe Seal: -3 to +2

Grand Seiko Certificate: -3 to +5

Ulysse Nardin Certificate: -2 to +6

Richard Mille Certificate: -1 to +1

I hope it can help.
All new Rolexes, all models, are now +2/-2
 
#23 ·
All of these values are mean static values at full wind. What are each manufacturers deltas?
DKDC....although it's nifty trivia to be aware of if/when those data come my way.

I know only that I have yet to buy a watch having a "delta" so large that I therefore rued having bought it.

All the best.
 
#22 ·
My non-high end Rolex DSSD runs a consistent + 0.5 seconds per day.
Not bad for a 'cheap' watch! :-d
 
#24 ·
I wasn't directing this at you. It had to do with the relative accuracy of movements. My Seiko 7S26 that I regulated myself averages +/-0 on my wrist. However, its delta is at least 15s/d. So, if I lent it to someone else, it might not be that accurate to them. OTOH, I have a Zodiac from 1994 that, after its last service, had a delta of <2s/d and a mean of 0.2s/d. That watch would seem near-quartzlike to anyone.
 
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