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A High-end watches forum. Why?

91K views 135 replies 76 participants last post by  dbostedo 
#1 · (Edited)
Recently one of our members contacted Hartmut Richter, moderator of our Zenith forum and asked him if a Ulysse Nardin forum would be possible here on watchuseek.com.

While this could have been a good idea we at Watchuseek believe it would be rather better to create a "high end watches" forum than a UN forum.

Potential brands to be discussed here are:
Patek Philippe
Audemars Piguet
Vacheron Constantin
A. Lange & Söhne
Breguet

... plus a whole load of brands like Harry Winston, F.P. Journe, Christiaan van der Klaauw, etc.
 
#44 ·
what do u guys think about putting guidance as subforum subtitle?

for instance a list of brands with etc at the end and price range. price range would be controversial and would create some buzz as well

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#45 ·
what do u guys think about putting guidance as subforum subtitle?

for instance a list of brands with etc at the end and price range. price range would be controversial and would create some buzz as well

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in fact if you made the forum title $15000 and up or something it would Really become populated. a lot of trolls too for sure but more members too I imagine

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#51 ·
I vote $10k. There are fantastic watches that everyone here consider high end in the 10 to 15k range, hell, even the mighty APRO 15300st could be bought for less than $15k new, and it is one of the most discussed watch on this subforum...

In terms of phrasing let me humbly suggest "High end ($10k+ MSRP)"? Or should we stay away from the idea of MSRP?
 
#52 ·
Well, in this case a bunch of other watches would also qualify, Rolex for instance (Daytona & Co.) and which i don't agree with, i'd leave it the way it is, people who peruse this sub forum have already an idea about what kind of timepieces and brands (criteria) are targeted down here.
 
#53 ·
Oh we all know from history that there is no "magic number" that we will all agree on, and I agree with your comment regarding Rolex. That said we are trying to make this subforum a bit more lively and a price point would definitely help :)
 
#59 ·
If you put the target on MSRP you might get some Invitas in here even though the owner got it at 99.99% discount. Just saying.

Market value is a better indicator and 10k is a good target. If a watch keeps it resale value above 10k, it's a high end watch one way or another. No?
 
#60 ·
If you put the target on MSRP you might get some Invitas in here even though the owner got it at 99.99% discount. Just saying.

Market value is a better indicator and 10k is a good target. If a watch keeps it resale value above 10k, it's a high end watch one way or another. No?
MSRP is simpler.
It's clearly not perfect but when we get invicta people's posts we can collectively laugh at them.
 
#61 ·
I really like anything above Daytona > about 13k. But now I am thinking what about MSRP increases every year? Unless is ok to change the name every year, otherwise it will be always off. I even thought of naming it "Anything above Daytona" but that is probably worst. Dead end again ?
 
#62 ·
"Anything above Daytona" sound really bad.

Also keep in mind that by excluding the 10k-15k category, a lot of watches will be excluded that deserve to be here. For example, quite a few of the VC Overseas, lots of JLCs, lots of GOs, even the AP RO is borderline. Not sure if this is the intent.
 
#64 ·
Honestly, Ernie created this forum as a general repository to discuss "high end" watches instead of creating individual brand forum as other watch discussion boards have without defining what those are other than citing a few examples in the header post. 4-years latter, after endless posts and efforts to define "high-end", threads like this continue. Luxury hobbyists seem to love to define classes/tiers of the genus horologica, perhaps to bolster their own sense of exclusivity?

In general, if there is a brand forum discuss the watch there. I think the question comes down to is how is this forum different than the General Forum? People utilize that forum when there is not a brand forum, they want a more balanced commentary or the topic is general in nature. Again, I repeat; what is different about this forum? Yes, the watches are more expensive, they typically are produced in limited numbers and the participants are in turn fewer but in general possess relevant knowledge.

Why do we need a definition? Occasionally, someone may ask a question that might be better answered in another forum. Participants can respond in kind or a moderator might move the post. Other forums have solved said issue by setting up more specific forums. If WUS want's to keep a high-end forum, i don't see a burning need for a definition. In general, I find that the forum works in terms of its content.

Nuf Said
 
#66 ·
I thought the point was to create controversy to increase number of posts?

If you put 10k or above Daytona, it will probably be a more lively forum.
Otherwise if it's just for clarification, we can give a short list of brands with etc at the end.
 
#67 ·
#72 ·
There have been several threads on here asking the same question: what is high-end? In fact, that seems to be the most contentious and common topic here. I dare to add my views, based on little experience but some introspection.

I dare to claim to know the difference between high-end and mere luxury--what they call luxury today, I mean. For starters, high-end means artisanal works of highest quality. I would say "handmade" instead of artisanal but there is an honest confusion between pure handmade, and the general meaning of handmade; the first means without an assembly line, the second only made with greater time and care. Someone told me that the Robert Persig "quality" formula was based on "quality = time". Time not only in how long the work was in production, but also in design, and also the training of the watchmakers and even the history of the brand, building on its pedigree. The more time, the more quality. High-end watches, therefore, at the simplest level, have more time put into them than other watches. This time, or quality, can be sensed, but the better our taste and judgement, the better we can do this; those without, are like a bystander who walked by when I was looking at a photograph of a Breguet La Tradition for sale, and asked why anyone would pay so much when a cell-phone can keep time as well. It is not that his judgement overall is bad, and it is probably better than mine, but he has not spent the time to examine the merchandise.

I started off cheap but as I looked and looked at each brand, I realized that the "high end" brands are so superior in artistic design, quality, workmanship, there is just no comparison with even regular "luxury" brands.

In person the quality of a high-end item can be sensed, though on camera they look more like toys. But in person they feel substantial, both precious jewelry and functional machine. They are really "jewelry for men", both elegant, delicate, and masculine.

My two favorites: Breguet & FP Journe. These and the other brands to me are like the Rolls Royce (or Ferrari) of watches. They are not mere watches, but works of art; jewelry, and priced accordingly.

To me, the test of high-end is a brand based on true quality first and marketing second, as opposed to non-high-end, (sometimes called "luxury") which is based on marketing first and quality second. In this, it is like the stereotypical used-car salesman, pushy because his vehicles are rusted-out-undercarriage lemons. Such a salesman must be pushy and a fast-talker since his products cannot sell themselves.

Another test to me is whether the work can be easily imitated. When I saw the dial of a FP Journe Chronometre Bleu, one of my thoughts was that it was unique, since I had never seen any dial of such a midnight blue color, not even the Rolex & Omega blue dials could compare. I would be surprised if any offshore factory could create the same; besides, to imitate would be a contradiction, as the imitation would cost near as much if it were a true replica, which would defeat the purpose of replicating it.

Branding is vulgar: True high-end products achieve recognition without branding; the design itself, without logos, allows us to identify it. Just like I can identify an Hermes tie, though there is no "H" logo, by the silk twill and the "whimsical" design patterns. For FP Journe, the second I saw it, even before I knew anything about movements or details, I could tell it was incredibly "French" in design. Take away the logo entirely, I can spot it at a distance.

I would also note that high-end products, be they clothing, automobiles, jewelry, watches, are (ironically) not wasteful but economical and environmental, as they are never thrown away, barring some unlikely trauma. Ferrari automobiles don't go "out of date" in style or performance; neither do Hermes scarves.

Visiting the Tourneau Time-Machine's top floor, and experiencing clumsy/aggressive salesmanship (Financing! 12 months no interest!!! Buy BUY BUY!) I had to walk away in disgust. This is because high-end watches are designed by and for those of a certain judgement; Toyota created Lexus to have not just a separate marque but separate dealerships, marketing, all designed for a different customer. The executives at Toyota know very well there are different levels of judgement as well as taste in the population, and design the buying experience accordingly. High-end is simply products designed for the group of customers that has the most refined judgement, and the means to act upon it. Relativistic counter-arguments, such as "it is high-end if it is high-end to you" are not based on fact, and frankly, if "snobbery" exists, it would exist more in those who think nobody could have better taste & judgement than themselves.
 
#84 · (Edited)
This answer will vary depend who you ask, but most agrees that in order for a watch to be high-end, the brand does not mass produce watch. As for price, the lowest end model for that particular brand can't exceed the minimum of 5k or so.

If you ask someone if a 200k Tag Hueur is high-end, most people in this forum will say no though outside of this forum, half of the people will say yes.
 
#85 ·
I've always wondered why JLC isn't considered top-notch like the big 3 Audemars Piguet, Vacheron Constantin & Patek Philippe. Jaeger Le-Coultre may not be as old as VC but its old enough and has enough heritage & innovations to put many high-end brands to shame, some examples > the Reverso GMT/Master Calendar. Its all 100% in-house too, I certainly cannot conceive of any situation where A.Lange & Sohne is above JLC, yes I'm aware of the controversial statement I've just made. Maybe I'm still new to the scene but I've done my fair share of research.. JLC's higher end models put just about everything to shame and are certainly far more complex than what ALS has done so far.

Yes I know between VC, ALS & JLC we're only squabbling about 3 brands under the same roof but JLC is just so underrated for what they seem to offer with 100% in-house manufacture, specialists in tourbillon & gyro-tourbillon, perpetual calendar movements, 8 day power reserve, ticking seconds movement like quartz, double sided movement etc. If ALS had the Grand Complication JLC had the Hybris Mechanica Grand Sonnerie. I understand that VC is top league simply due to its age & experience as also is Patek Philippe. I feel JLC should be part of the big 3 at the very least, not taking away the sheer quality & brilliance of the other brands mentioned above of course. Am I missing something?
 
#86 ·
I've always wondered why JLC isn't considered top-notch like the big 3 Audemars Piguet, Vacheron Constantin & Patek Philippe. Jaeger Le-Coultre may not be as old as VC but its old enough and has enough heritage & innovations to put many high-end brands to shame, some examples > the Reverso GMT/Master Calendar. Its all 100% in-house too, I certainly cannot conceive of any situation where A.Lange & Sohne is above JLC, yes I'm aware of the controversial statement I've just made. Maybe I'm still new to the scene but I've done my fair share of research.. JLC's higher end models put just about everything to shame and are certainly far more complex than what ALS has done so far.

Yes I know between VC, ALS & JLC we're only squabbling about 3 brands under the same roof but JLC is just so underrated for what they seem to offer with 100% in-house manufacture, specialists in tourbillon & gyro-tourbillon, perpetual calendar movements, 8 day power reserve, ticking seconds movement like quartz, double sided movement etc. If ALS had the Grand Complication JLC had the Hybris Mechanica Grand Sonnerie. I understand that VC is top league simply due to its age & experience as also is Patek Philippe. I feel JLC should be part of the big 3 at the very least, not taking away the sheer quality & brilliance of the other brands mentioned above of course. Am I missing something?
Depends. How many of each brand have you owned or at least handled in the flesh, to carefully examine them? If the answer is "zero", or at least "almost zero", then, yes, you are missing something. If the answer is "several of each", and that's still your opinion, then to each his own. Personally, I own a JLC, an AP and a VC, and have handled quite a few PP and Lange watches, and I do believe the AP, Lange, PP and VC are above JLC in quality of finishing, both dials and movements. Which is not to say JLC isn't excellent, it is. But there are fine gradations IMO. Your opinion, of course, may vary.

Having said that, I think most folks on this forum would agree that JLC is high end (although not as high as some others).
 
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