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Seeking your advice.. My first High-End

2K views 26 replies 18 participants last post by  alexster 
#1 ·
Hi all,

After 8 years of my Tag Heuer Carrera Twin Time, Tag Heuer Kirium, and Tag Heuer 2000 rotation, I am now ready to upgrade myself out of Tag Heuer and into the "higher tier." I am looking for a dress watch, something that i can wear to work with sport coats & ties, with occasional smart casual days. I am looking for something classy, elegant, and timeless. I have been doing quite a bit of research and I have shortlisted my search to four (4) watches:

1) Lange Saxonia Automatic

2) Breguet Classique

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3) Blancpain Villeret

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Size-wise and price-wise, all three are about the same. The Lange and Breguet are in white gold, while the Blancpain is in rose gold. All three are absolutely beautiful and extremely elegant. I am having trouble deciding and I would like to hear the opinions and general comments from everyone here.. experts and/or non-expert comments (even only aesthetic views) are all welcome.

In addition to those listed above, one other watch has also captured my attention: Blancpain Villeret Moonphase and Complete Calendar 40mm.

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I know this one is quite different compared to the three above (and this is stainless steel), but you do get a lot of bang for the buck with its complications and the moonphase also looks awesome. What do you guys think about this watch? Too busy?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

RJ
 
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#3 ·
Are these pre-owned pieces you are considering? Reason I ask is that the 5177 is also offered in yellow and rose gold cases, so you shouldn't feel limited to the white gold version if buying new. That said, the 5177 in white gold is my "classy, elegant and timeless" piece. It offers so much -- grand feu enamel dial, blued Breguet hands, Breguet arabics (hand painted), interesting minute markers, fluted case band. I'm dependent on a date complication, but others have criticized the presence of the date on the 5177, or it not being in place of the numeral '3'.

I also have two Villerets -- ultra slim large date in rg (38mm) and retrograde seconds with flinque dial. I enjoy both, but the lack of minute markers frustrates my ocd nature when setting the time.

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Watch Analog watch Watch accessory Fashion accessory Strap


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#4 · (Edited)
All of the choices are very nice, but I would rank them as very conservative, probably too much for "smart casual". I view them more as formal dress watches, with the possible exception of the last Villeret, whose busier nature gives it a slightly less austere appearance.

For something good for the office and for smart casual, I would think something like a Lange 1 or 1815 Up-Down (if you want a Lange) or the similarly-styled (to the Lange 1) but cheaper Glashütte Original Panoreserve or Panomaticlunar might be more versatile for the kind of dress style you were referring to.
 
#5 ·
I would choose the Breguet easily over the others. It's uber-simple face gives it the most flexibility with the types of outfits you've described and the numeral font gives it a bit of flair that keeps it from being so staid. That's my personal preference, but outside of that, I'd say aesthetically, they are all in the same ballpark. I could as easily toss a coin, pick one and be quite content with whatever choice fate would have me make.

In light of the relative sameness of the stylistic feeling of the watches, I'd consider things having to do with the ownership experience or specific collecting goals, that is if you have any beyond just wanting something more "special" than your existing watches. (You don't have to; not everyone who buys fine watches wants more than just a very nice watch that looks good.) In terms of the ownership experience, the BP and Breguet will be more or less the same, but it'll be slightly different for the ALS.

The ALS has one material aspect that makes it a bit different: maillechort or German silver, which has no silver in it at all is what the movement's major bits are made of. The issue with that material is that if it's touched without gloves, it'll retain finger marks. That's not a big deal for you, but it'll matter if you take the watch to a watchmaker who doesn't realize that that's what the ALS' movement plates are made from. (I can't say what the odds are that a watchmaker might not realize it, but I suspect they are lower than the odds of an assistant not realizing it.) If nothing else, just be sure to tell the folks at the local repair shop about it, or ask if they have experience working with maillechort, and you'll avoid issues as well as subtly letting them think you expect a high level of care from them.

The other thing to keep in mind with ALS is that some of their movements require special tools that not ever watchmaker will have. There again, just asking will tell you what you need to know, but of course you can just send the watch to ALS and not worry about it, but you'll pay dearly for that peace of mind. So, if you are seeking a very nice watch that'll be easy to deal with over the long haul, I think something other than the ALS would be the way to go. Think of it this way: a Bently sedan can be used to ride around everywhere you need to go and it will serve one perfectly well, but an MB, Audi, BMW, or other sedan will be just as nice (albeit different) and considerably more practical for that use for most folks who don't overall live a "Bentley" lifestyle (even though they can afford to buy and maintain the car). Or in other words, don't take a sword to a gun fight.

One other thing...if the service related issues with the ALS concern you, check out similarly styled watches from the other top makers such as JLC, PP, VC, AP. The general look of the Saxonia isn't all that uncommon, and IMO, if you don't have a specific reason for wanting the ALS, perhaps one of the others might be a better choice for you.

As for the attention to craftsmanship and detail in the construction of the watch's inner workings, I feel that ALS blows the pants off of Breguet and BP, although neither of them are slouches by any stretch of the imagination. I just think ALS takes it up a notch. Take a look through the ABTW "Inside the Manufacture" articles to see if Mr. Adams has written about either BP or Breguet (Inside the Manufacture Articles | aBlogtoWatch). He wrote at least one article about ALS (A. Lange & Sohne Factory Trip Part 2: The Luxury German Watch Manufacturing Process | aBlogtoWatch).

One other thing that may help guide your decision is what your plans are -- if you have any -- for future HEW watch buys. For example, if you think you might want to buy a high-end chronograph, ALS would be the pinnacle choice at the moment, so maybe buying the BP or Breguet now will give you the sort of variety you may want among your HEWs. Or, perhaps you want to collect watches from another single maker as you've already done with Tag, in which case considering what other pieces each maker offers, along with your willingness to pay the prices they command, may tell you which maker to choose. .

You know what your plans are. I'm just tossing out a couple ideas re: how they may help you come to a decision for this purchase. Of course you may not have any future plans to buy any more HEWs, and if not, that's fine too as a great many folks don't. It just means you aren't trying to do much other than buy a nice watch that you like. That's an easy position to be in and given the watches you've identified, you'll achieve that no matter which one you choose. Just go try them on. Play with them...set the time, set the date, have the clerk show you the instructions for how to operate the perp cal and the others, see what the recommended maintenance periods are, take a jacket or extra shirt (change in the men's room if you need to) with you to see how they look with your basic sartorial style (they'll all look excellent with a suit, so wearing a suit won't tell you much), etc. Trust me, once you actually sport the watches on your wrist, you'll know which one is the right one.

All the best.
 
#6 ·
As i was reading your post, I kept thinking about the Villeret Complete Calendar only to find you posting it as your 4th piece. Frankly, based on your budget and what you have, the top 3 don't do much for me since if I was going to own just one dress piece and wanted it to be versatile enough, a few complications would be nice.

I have actually owned the Complete Calendar you are considering and it was one of my favorite watches that I ever had. Everything about it was just perfect including it being in steel. I highly suggest it! I only sold mine to downsize and make financial room for something else...or I would be wearing it today
 
#11 · (Edited)
The Saxonia or the 5177 for me, just not a fan of BP's design. The Breguet has all the trademark touches and the enamel dial, as mentioned above. Perhaps a slightly more vintage 'look' than the Saxonia. It's also worth pointing out that ALS have just changed the dial of the Saxonia, personally I prefer the one shown, not keen on all the double index markers on the new one
 
#16 ·
I am looking for a dress watch, something that i can wear to work with sport coats & ties, with occasional smart casual days. I am looking for something classy, elegant, and timeless.
Given the statements I have highlighted in bold I think the Breguet is the outstanding choice.

The Blancpain Complete Calendar is a super watch but is far too busy to be considered a dress watch. The lack of minute markers on the Blancpain Villeret spoils the look of the dial for me. So then it comes down to a straight fight between the Breguet and the ALS. Both are good options but the Breguet wins as you simply can't get more dressy than an enamel dial with Breguet hands. I also like the added date over the ALS and the centre seconds over the sub dial.

One thing I always tell people about Breguet (I own two) is that they lose up to 50% when you pay full retail prices. Either buy used or demand 25% off MSRP. You will get discounts as high as this if you shop around and are determined to buy new. Also Breguet prices have just gone up on some of their models. If the Classique is one of them (I can't recall) then tell any AD that you know they might have old/new stock that was bought in for less before the price hikes.

Sorry to go off on a tangent about prices but hopefully it will help you.
 
#18 ·
This is just my uninformed opinion as to the watch I'd like to have-- if you really want to be classic dress watch, then I like the Breguet for the simple, clean, pocket watch looking dial. You can get the Breguet and Blancpain worked on in the US, but I don't know about ALS, so I like the ALS a bit less than its' quality deserves. But, my immediate favorite is the moon phase, by far. Unless you really need to keep things very conservative, I much prefer the classic complications of the BP full calendar moon.
 
#19 ·
You have a wonderful choice in front of you. Of those you listed, I prefer the Lange. You might consider dropping a bit more for the Lange 1...

And yes, the Journe Chronometre Bleu is a great choice if you like the style (but obviously you must like blue!). I personally opted for a custom RGM when I got into this price range, which would have some great options if you aren't opposed to 42mm (which may be a bit large for a true dress watch)...

I am also fond of these Jacquet Droz (in 39mm and 43mm) with a grand feu fired enamel dial:

j014014201 Jaquet Droz Grande Seconde 39mm Mens Watch

j003034201 Jaquet Droz Grande Seconde 43mm Mens Watch

I hold these responsible for altering my plans with RGM to add an enamel dial option...
 
#20 ·
Welcome.

Of your choices, I'd go for the Blancpain full calendar, as that's one of their signature watches.

I wouldn't get that Lange, because the Lange 1, 1815 and even Richard Lange lines appeal more to me.

I like the Breguet, except their date window; they should have omitted the date, or replaced the 3 o'clock hour numeral with the date to keep the symmetry of the dial.
 
#22 ·
All,

I have just returned from my business trip in Hong Kong, where I had the opportunity to try on all four of the watches that I shortlisted. I have also had additional conversations with watch experts and dealers. Based on everything that I learned and saw, here is what I have done, which I would appreciate your thoughts and/or comments (please feel feel to chime in):

1. I have ruled out the Lange Saxonia Automatic... the reason being that I was advised (by multiple sources) that the costs of maintenance on Lange watches will be extremely high. In fact, in one estimate, the cost (including international shipping) is approximately what I paid for my Tag Heuer Carrera Twin Time (new). In addition, Langes can be serviced only at a few locations worldwide, if you want it done by authorized service agents. Just the cost of regular maintenance for long term ownership (which is what I intend to do) is enough to convince me to look the other way. I was told that even Pateks do not cost as much for their regular maintenance (is that true?).

2. I have also ruled out the Blancpain Villeret Ultra Slim 40mm... the reason being that I was told (again, by multiple sources) Blancpain 3 hand watches are "nothing spectacular" in terms of movements. In fact, one source told that if I was shopping for a Blancpain in the Villeret series, I should be look at the something with complications. Do you all agree with this? Another reason for me ruling out the Ultra Slim 40mm... it looked kinda boring compared to its cousin that I had also shortlisted: The Complete Calendar and Moonphase.

With the above, I now have my two Finalists: The Breguet Classique 5177 in white gold and the Blancpain Villeret Complete Calendar and Moonphase 40mm in SS. I know these are two completely different watches, different materials, and there is a huge price difference between the two. However, i do not mind paying the difference, if the Breguet is ultimately the right watch for what I am looking for.

To help me with my final selection, I would like to solicit everyone's thoughts on the following:

a) Both Breguet and Blancpain belong to the Swatch Group... are these in-house movements in these two watches? Are Breguet movements found in Blancpain movements, or vice versa? How reliable are the Breguet movements and Blancpain movements?

b) Maybe it's just me, but the Breguet looks to be a bit "fragile"... Perhaps it's the thin Breguet hands? OR is it really more fragile? Is the Breguet something that I should handle with care in my daily activities? I won't be diving or playing tennis with either watches; however, I would like to know if these two watches are capable of handling a couple of G's in our regular daily activities?

c) I love the enamel dial of the Breguet. Are enamel dials fragile; i.e., do they crack easily? (Watch dealers tell me 'no worries', but I don't know if they're telling the truth or just trying to move the watch out)

d) With the under lug adjustors on the Blancpain, do I need to observe the "no adjustments between 8pm - 3am" rule?

e) The Blancpain could be my first watch without minute markers. Right now, it does not bother me, but does it bother you that the Blancpain does not have minute markers AND there is date ring that runs on the inside of the hour markers?

Thanks to everyone for your comments and suggestions thus far. It is good to have a 2nd opinion, or 3rd, or 4th opinion, when it comes to a purchase like this. I look forward to hearing everyone's comments to the above.
 
#26 ·
All,

...

To help me with my final selection, I would like to solicit everyone's thoughts on the following:

1) Both Breguet and Blancpain belong to the Swatch Group... are these in-house movements in these two watches? Are Breguet movements found in Blancpain movements, or vice versa? How reliable are the Breguet movements and Blancpain movements?

2) Maybe it's just me, but the Breguet looks to be a bit "fragile"... Perhaps it's the thin Breguet hands? OR is it really more fragile? Is the Breguet something that I should handle with care in my daily activities? I won't be diving or playing tennis with either watches; however, I would like to know if these two watches are capable of handling a couple of G's in our regular daily activities?

3) I love the enamel dial of the Breguet. Are enamel dials fragile; i.e., do they crack easily? (Watch dealers tell me 'no worries', but I don't know if they're telling the truth or just trying to move the watch out)

4) With the under lug adjustors on the Blancpain, do I need to observe the "no adjustments between 8pm - 3am" rule?

5) The Blancpain could be my first watch without minute markers. Right now, it does not bother me, but does it bother you that the Blancpain does not have minute markers AND there is date ring that runs on the inside of the hour markers?

Thanks to everyone for your comments and suggestions thus far. It is good to have a 2nd opinion, or 3rd, or 4th opinion, when it comes to a purchase like this. I look forward to hearing everyone's comments to the above.
You are one of the most skeptical consumers I've come across in a long time. Do you really think companies are so foolish that they are going to offer junk, as some of your areas of uncertainty presume, at the prices these watches command, and expect to endure as viable businesses? (rhetorical question) Sure there's marketing hype; sure, various makers offer incentives to retailers for selling their products, but none of those things should lead one to thing the products are not very high quality goods, and it doesn't make sellers shysters.

If the issue is you just don't trust the seller or salesperson, pick a different one. As I've said before, if you don't believe someone is going to honestly answer your question, don't ask them the question in the first place. What would be the point of doing so? You aren't going to believe them no matter what they say, so don't waste your time or theirs.

  1. Swatch Group brands are sort of odd as goes the question of in-house. I tend to think of them as brands owned by a watchmaking company rather than brands that are synonymous with the company making the watch.

    As I'm sure you know, or maybe you don't, there's a lot of "sharing" that goes on among unrelated independents as it is. Some companies even have their movements produced by third parties and have an agreement such that the actual producer allows their customer to claim "in house" production. Just as there's "sharing" among independents, there's certainly the same thing going on inside of the major conglomerates like Swatch and Richemont. Sometimes design is done in one unit, and fabrication in one or more others. Sometimes parts are bought from Unit A, sometimes whole movements, sometimes just ebauches.

    Popular news has it that Swatch assigned Frederic Piguet as Blancpain's manufacturer, but FP make movements that end up in other Swatch group watches as well. More or less the same not-altogether-clear arrangement exists with Lemania, which presumably is Breguet's manufacturer. Even just the preceding sentence should make clear why I think of Swatch Group products as brands owned by a company rather than companies in and of themselves. You can perhaps find more insight re: Blancpain here -- Visiting The Blancpain Haute Horology Watch Manufacture | aBlogtoWatch -- and perhaps there's a similar article re: Breguet.

    In light of the preceding, I'd suggest you get over the "in house" aspect, because unless you actually see the thing being produced by a given maker, you can't be 100% certain who made the movement, let alone the other parts of the watch. I'd especially suggest "getting over it" re: Swatch and/or Richemont Group products. Even if not buying something from one of those companies, what is "in house" going to get you? If you want that, well, you do, and you are entitled to want it, but I wouldn't advise anyone to reject a watch solely, or even predominantly, on that basis.
  2. No, the Breguet is not fragile. Wear it as you would any similar watch and it'll perform just fine.
  3. Enamel can crack with a forceful enough sharp vibration, or with repeated and regular less forceful vibrations; the same thing won't happen to a metal dial. Applied markers can in either case be jarred lose. Routine use of a watch isn't going to cause a problem; however, dropping the watch on hard, inflexible surfaces (like stone) isn't going to do the enamel any good. Read these two discussionad and decide for yourself whether an enamel dial is right for you given your intentions re: using the watch:
    - Pocketwatch 101 - Pocket Watch Dials, Types and Materials Used
    - Enamel Cult - Forbes
    - Patek Philippe 5131 - Patek Philippe - ART OF ENAMEL - 5131j 5131
  4. I believe the answer is no, but I'd advise you read the instructions for a complicated watch as each maker can have their own vagaries pertaining to how one must operate it. If you need to know this before you purchase the watch, ask the seller to let you see the instructions, or check the maker's website to see if they have them posted there. You could also just call the maker and ask them.
  5. I have a P 3520 and a Movado Eliro, so, no, the lack of minute markers doesn't bother me in the least. My life doesn't require that I be able to tell what minute it is any more accurately than I can judge by looking at the watch and guessing as I must do with the two noted watches, which also lack seconds hands. Yes, if a watch has minute markers, I use them, but I don't require them.
All the best.
 
#24 ·
a) Both Breguet and Blancpain belong to the Swatch Group... are these in-house movements in these two watches? Are Breguet movements found in Blancpain movements, or vice versa? How reliable are the Breguet movements and Blancpain movements?
Yes, but more importantly both are very tried and true movements.

b/c)Neither are going to be fragile, you should be fine with either. Enamel doesn't do well with drops but is otherwise fine, and quite beautiful

d) With the under lug adjustors on the Blancpain, do I need to observe the "no adjustments between 8pm - 3am" rule?
Nope! That's a big part of the beauty of the under-lug correctors. It is a wildly under-appreciated feature.

e) The Blancpain could be my first watch without minute markers. Right now, it does not bother me, but does it bother you that the Blancpain does not have minute markers AND there is date ring that runs on the inside of the hour markers?It hasn't bothered me once but everybody is different. E.g. I don't trust watches without a seconds hand :)

You'll love either.
 
#25 ·
As far as I know, blancpain makes their own movements since they bought the F. Piguet facility. Further, it is one of the only watch companies that follows the "to each watchmaker, his own watch" which basically means each movement is put together by one person A to Z instead of assembly manners.

The complete calendar has a secured mechanism which means you can adjust it at absolutely any time without damage. It has 321 parts most of which is for that secured mechanism (that part count is usually found in perpetual calendars)

I've owned the blancpain...never got tired of its dial. Lack of minute markers works (would bother me in others).
The inner date ring was a beauty because it was unusual compared to other watches.
Honestly, it was just superb in every way besides the hacking seconds...which was useless because of the lacking minute markers.

Not sure about breguet so I won't comment except to say the movement in their marine big date is by blancpain and I dislike their level of finishing.
 
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#27 ·
I see nothing wrong with the questions RJ was asking. I'm not sure where RJ is shopping for his watches, but I have seen too many times sales people selling high end watches in reputable jewelry stores not knowing what they are talking about.


In my opinion, there isn't much that can compare with the Blancpain at that price level. Let me see if I can make this harder for you.. Have you considered a JLC Master Ultra Thin Date? It's an elegant 3-hand and it has the same complications as the Breguet, at a significantly lower price. The JLC is definitely high-tier.
 
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