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Which Watch Brands Belong in the High-End Forum? Which Ones Do Not?

185K views 656 replies 154 participants last post by  WTSP 
#1 ·
doesn't it seem like there are certain brands that are brought up here, but should not be?

is TAG Heuer a "high-end" watch? i like omega, but is it "high-end"? i have an IWC, but i don't think i would consider it high-end.

i wouldn't expect any arguing about Lange or Patek. any others?

just interested to see what brands people think belong or don't belong here.
 
#607 ·
Nobody wants their beloved timepiece which one saved for to be labeled 'almost/borderline/entry level' high end, simply not aspirational enough.

With all due respect this whole idea of 'not really high end' category is not credible in my mind - especially for a forum where people post where they want... It's an interesting concept though.
 
#608 ·
True, you want your piece to be next to the best, but when you know is not at the level of the big 5 (ALS,PP, AP,VC,Breguet) and you know is a step up to Omega or Rolex then it might make perfect sense to call it something on those lines. It makes perfect sense to me, but you might be right, maybe in the practice is different.
 
#609 ·
So far, the most sensible approach I've seen is a dollar figure for the MSRP of the watch being discussed, in its most common version wtihout diamond encrustations. I would say steel only for that determination, but some high-end watches just aren't available in steel.

If the watch is old, then use the present worth of the prior MSRP when it was new based on a consumer-price-index calculator. New watch prices have risen faster than inflation, so it will tend to weed out vintage models, though. Or maybe someone can produce a "watch inflation calculator" based on the actual retail prices of something like a Calatrava that has been in continuous production for many decades, and the publish it to use as a consistent standard.

That would preclude brand snootiness and provide an objective (even if arbitrary--arbitrariness is built into the very concept of a "high-end forum", it seems to me) standard that would at least be clear.

If people want to designate certain companies as being high-end-acceptable even for models that are cheaper, then fine. But that should be the decision of the moderator of this forum. Again, clarity is possible even when consensus is not. If so, I would nominate JLC as the best example of why it might be needed: A JLC Master Ultra Thin seems pretty high-end to me, even though its retail price is a bit lower than my Zenith Captain Chronograph, which I do not consider to be high-end in the sense of this forum. The boutique brands that are too numerous to list (such as Richard Mille or F. P. Journe) would get in on the retail price.

A good dollar amount to consider might be the current retail price of the steel Daytona, plus five dollars, just as a starting point. I think those who own Pateks and Vacherons know that Rolex isn't in the same class, and those who own Rolexes ought to be prepared to admit it. I have no illusions that my Zenith is high-end, for example.

Rick "who has no (expensive) dog in this hunt" Denney
 
#610 ·
Dollar amount would make it much easier.

But then you run into the problem of, unlike with a lot of things, no you don't get what you pay for with watches.

I've seen it happen time and again.
 
#611 ·
Dollar amount would make it much easier.

But then you run into the problem of, unlike with a lot of things, no you don't get what you pay for with watches.

I've seen it happen time and again.
I'm not talking about what deserves to be called high-end. I'm talking about what mods can use to determine whether it should be discussed in this forum, if the problem is that there is too much discussion of non-high-end watches.

If you are going to try to resolve what deserves to be called high-end, this subforum is doomed to spend all its energies arguing about that (hence, this never-ending thread). If that is the intent, then so be it. But if so, I wouldn't want to be a moderator.

Rick "who moderates other forums and understand the value of clear rules, even if arbitrary" Denney
 
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#616 ·
Sorry I don't get your tag example.
I think Tag in this particular discussion is irrelevant because it's far from high-end.

I believe that above $10-15k (USD), false positives are not going to be a huge issue.
 
#617 ·
Not implying that TAG Heuer is High-End. Simply used it as an example to illustrate the difference between Price vs. Quality. But even at the $10K-$15K range, there are still going to be more than a couple of pieces that aren't worth that much. I can see it being far less of an issue when you get into the mid-five figure range and Above.
 
#619 ·
I have to agree with you there. Too often, folks forget that every industry has a Top Tier (regardless of what item or goods are being produced). That should be one's standard of comparison. Even going by price alone. In the watch world, $3,000 won't get you a High-End watch. In the custom flashlight world, that same amount will get you a High-End light because $3,000 is where the ceiling is in that industry. All about standard of comparison. An Omega Speedmaster is downright high-end compared a Timex Expedition. But that's the wrong standard to use.
 
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#622 ·
Honestly was not expecting anyone to think those are great ideas. Okay, let's take them one at a time ...

1) There is something known as High-End quartz. But keep in mind, we're talking about watch brands that want to be perceived as High-End. Not those that already are. How much sense does it make to alienate a big chunk of your core customer base by getting rid of quartz offerings? Especially if some of them are your biggest sellers? Plus, it's not as though it actually turns a luxury brand into a full-on High-End one. It's a perception. More often than not, one put out there by a brand's executives.

2) It's a little thing called not being an absolute scumbag. You don't pull the AD status from independent businesses that have worked hard to make your brand successful not just over the years, but over the decades.

3) It's the watch industry. Sorry, but discounting is a hallmark practice which consumers are used to. Just as they are in the car business. If a typical individual bought a brand new, for example, family sedan; and payed full retail for it ... Everyone he knows would laugh at him. And rightly so! No one pays full retail for the average car. GM tried to pull that boutique-no-discounts BS with their Saturn line of cars. Look what happened there. 10 years, and now Saturn is dead as a brand. 10 years! For a car brand?? Downright pathetic. Now in fairness, more folks seem to be willing to put up with that no-discounts nonsense from watch brands far more than they would from a car brand. "Seem to" being the key words. It would be interesting to see just how many customers walk into a boutique simply to try on a watch in order to make sure it'll be a good fit for them, before going home and ordering that model online from a Grey Market dealer with an excellent reputation. (Honestly, I doubt we'll ever know. Though I'll go out on a limb and say it's not likely an insignificant percentage of shoppers.)

It's one thing if you simply must have a certain model in your collection and it becomes clear that a boutique is your best bet. Let's be realistic though. How often is a WIS or a non-WIS but shrewd buyer going to pay full price for a watch? Even a nice one. Not often. And certainly not if they can find a better price online from a trusted source. It's just something that quite a few watch brands have to learn to deal with ... Consumers expect a discount when they buy a new watch. If you refuse, they'll go elsewhere for a new or a Pre-owned version of it. As a personal example, a little earlier in this topic, I mentioned my growing fascination with the newer 2-dial Omega Speedmaster. I guarantee you, I will not walk into an Omega boutique and pay full price for one. One of the reasons why that will NEVER happen? I would laugh at myself if I did that. It's not a Grail. It's not a model I've lusted over for years which is now very difficult to find and the only place I can now get one is at a place with a strict No-Discount policy. True, the recognized High-End brands are not the realm of "bargain hunters." But some choose to go the Pre-owned route there. And it's a perfectly viable option.

4) I'll admit, this can be beneficial if a brand chooses the right celebrity Ambassador who reflects the brand's image and that of the core customer base they are trying to attract. Still, smart consumers realize that part of the high cost of their watch is to pay off that Ambassador or product-placement in movies. It can attract consumers to your brand. But once attracted, you better be able to keep them interested. That's the hard part. Plus, choose the wrong celeb to endorse your product; and you risk actually alienating customers.

5) Does this one really need an explanation? Really?? How about the fact that it's just bull$#!%. And while not every consumer can "smell it." Many can. Even if they still want your offerings, it goes back to #3 and the whole concept of not paying full price. Actually #3 and #5 have a darker side to them ... It's called price-gouging. While great for certain brands who can get away with that garbage, ultimately; among those who appreciate a true High-End watch, their noses are a little too sensitive to the "smell." They're (literally) not going to buy it. Ultimately the recognized, true, High-End brands have a history that is quite different from those who follow the play-book for a short-cut to being seen as "upscale."

As far as TAG Heuer and its Ambassadors go, the watches are worn that way because thay are photoshopped onto their fists. Perhaps so that the same still pictures can be used later on when newer versions of those models are introduced. Just photoshop the new ones over the old.
 
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#632 ·
Well I like your reasoning and perspective, but wonder if culture has something to do with this. There are plenty of expensive products available that're not subject to an expectation of instant discounts. Of course if you come from a discount culture then the mrsp becomes a mockery exactly like US car market. I'd argue that discounting is an evil that does no one any good as it disguises the true worth to the consumer and true (potential for) profitability for the manufacturers and distributors.

Cancelling independent AD partnerships is part and parcel of increasing service and quality at the point of sale. Assuming there *is* an increase in service and quality of course. Can the continued business of some of those independent ADs become harmed? Yep. Is this a fair outcome? Well, I can bet that those same ADs would drop unprofitable brands in an instant. And no one's asking 'em for decades of profits back. So it's a bit like the closure of the town's icicle works, or two out of every three gas stations. It's a shame, harms some, but inevitable. Life goes on.

Brand ambassadors? Well, some brands go for Hollywood a-listers, one goes for the James Bond association (with big photos of Daniel Craig or Pierce Brosnan before him, so I refer your honour to the Hollywood a-listers) and some just use the watch face itself as the ambassador; they're pretty enough. And *all* of the luxury and high-enders have vast advertisements (human or watch) on every available wallspace of Zürich and Frankfurt airports (and many many more) so none of 'em's immune to the necessity for advertising.

Never thought of the Tag Heuer ambassadors holding the watches for that reason. Amusing if true, but then again I'm sure a Photoshop whizz can do the same with a watch worn on a wrist. Except mine, because the orangutang hairs would be hard to replicate.

Pleased to meet you.

Ric
 
#627 ·
This goes back to what I was mentioning earlier in terms of getting a lot of false positives based on a watch's asking-price alone. Depending on price-ranges themselves.
 
#639 ·
What about high-end Japanese movements like Miyota 9015? Where do they lie in this breakdown?
I'm just going to ask directly ... Are you being sarcastic or serious?

If it's the former, okay it wasn't funny but not a bad try. If it's the latter, it's not a high-end movement. It's not garbage either. Competes well with ETA's 2892. It doesn't surpass it though. Also, it's not as though you have to pay thousands upon thousands of dollars in order to get a watch with that Miyota movement inside. Definitely an improvement over the Miyota 8215 in terms of accuracy.
 
#633 ·
Life is short and postings such as this one while approaching infinity in length, are no closer to answering the original question because its a false question. This is a "high end watches" forum and not about high end brands. Some brands indeed make higher percentage of watches that might be considered high end in their construction. High end watches are made indeed made by a variety of makers.

Why post here vs. the public forum, a theme forum or a brand forum? The same questions can be answered in other WUS forums. You might get a more neutral view because the lack of a brand theme. You might find participants with greater first hand experience with a watch in question. The forum seems to be self regulating and if someone posts a question that might be better answered in another flora, it is usually suggested to the OP.

If there is a particular watch of interest, by all means let's discuss it. An endless argument regarding brands, perceptions of prestige, exclusivity or relative ranking rather pointless and usually ends up stepping on someone's toes.
 
#634 ·
Life is short and postings such as this one while approaching infinity in length, are no closer to answering the original question because its a false question. This is a "high end watches" forum and not about high end brands. Some brands indeed make higher percentage of watches that might be considered high end in their construction. High end watches are made indeed made by a variety of makers.

Why post here vs. the public forum, a theme forum or a brand forum? The same questions can be answered in other WUS forums. You might get a more neutral view because the lack of a brand theme. You might find participants with greater first hand experience with a watch in question. The forum seems to be self regulating and if someone posts a question that might be better answered in another flora, it is usually suggested to the OP.

If there is a particular watch of interest, by all means let's discuss it. An endless argument regarding brands, perceptions of prestige, exclusivity or relative ranking rather pointless and usually ends up stepping on someone's toes.
I agree with this, I said that before, in order to make this thread meaningful you will have to change the name of the forum to "High-End brands"
 
#641 · (Edited)
Gave up on a post that was going nowhere, but it got sent anyway.

Rick "deleted" Denney
 
#645 ·
Can High-End watches be mostly robotic-machine made like Rolex and Omegas? Or do they need to be handcrafted like ALS?
When did Rolex make a big change in their production process?

See point numbers 3, 8 & 9 here: 10 Things To Know About How Rolex Makes Watches | aBlogtoWatch .

As for my opinion on theme of your question, I don't care whether the maker uses machines or humans to fabricate any or most parts. I know that high quality and consistency can be achieved by both. As far as parts fabrication goes, my gut sense is that making them by machine is considerably more efficient because of the consistency that approach provides.

As with most stuff folks discuss on WUS, there's more to it than is obvious on the face of the inquiry. Watch production, like most manufacturing processes consists of starting with (1) raw materials, (2) using them to produce intermediate assemblies, and (3) combining one or more intermediate assembly to yield finished goods. Humans and machines can be used at various points in the process and there are pros and cons to either approach.

Given the nature of the manufacturing process, I don't think there is a 100% right answer. There might be a 100% right answer in light of a set of specific production and economic constraints. There is definitely a 100% right answer given an individual consumer's specific set of priorities and preferences.

Because of the nature and existence of those two general types of dependencies -- producer and consumer -- I've long advocated that price alone be the distinguishing factor for what should or should not qualify in a broad-appeal forum such as the WUS HEW forum. I don't care what the price is, so long as it's communicated by the forum owner/moderator so that everyone can adhere to it.

All the best.

We shouldn't be looking for heroes, we should be looking for good ideas.
― Noam Chomsky
 
#648 · (Edited)
I've seen many items, not just watches, slapped with a high price-tag. Doesn't even remotely mean they're High-End. Just high in price. Most blatant example would be Mont Blanc's Solitaire model made from "precise resin." :roll:

Cheap, thin-barreled, ridiculously fragile pieces of junk that now sell for over $200 each. Meanwhile the level of quality you'd get from a $5 plastic Parker Jotter is significantly better. How do I know? I used to sell pens for a living. About once a week, we'd get an angry customer complaining that they dropped their Solitaire on the sidewalk and it literally shattered. They'd stand there with what was left of their M.B. in one hand, along with the shattered pieces in the other. Luckily, we were literally in a good spot. There was an M.B. shop just above us on the 2nd floor. We'd send the angry customers up there. And oh!.... how the staff up there hated us! Kept asking why we were sending those angry customers upstairs to deal with them.

Hey! Fed up with angry customers giving you a tongue-lashing? Don't sell worthless junk for $200 by trading on your name and company history. (Though being an A.D., obviously we never stated the obvious.)

Credit where it's due, M.B.'s yearly Limited Editions are actually worth the asking-price; in terms of quality. Ever bought a fake Rolex and it turned out to be better quality than the real thing? Of course not! I've literally seen fake M.B. Solitaires that were better than the real thing. The con-men make the plastic barrels a bit too thick. Thus the fakes can actually withstand a short drop to the ground without literally shattering. That's more than a bit sad that a fake Solitaire is better quality than the real thing, at a fraction of the price.

Mont Blanc taught me that High Price and High-End sometimes have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
 
#654 ·
It's not about the brands, it's in each piece.

Any watch that has a combination of:
A) Many complications and/or a high degree of technological complexity in the execution of its functions
B) A precious metal case
C) A high level of movement finishing
...is a high end watch, regardless of brand. Everything beyond this is subject to debate.
 
#655 ·
Though honestly I wish this thread would just die, I do like your factors test.

Though things like the PP 5711 or a Royal Oak would sorta be problematic.

1. Not complicated nor anything particularly great about the movement. Nothing wrong with it, quite good in fact, but nothing complicated so wouldn't check this box.
2. SS case
3. Does have a high level of movement finish but nothing spectacular. But absolutely give it this category.

So is 1 out of 3 categories enough?

Just spit balling.
 
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