Which Watch Brands Belong in the High-End Forum? Which Ones Do Not?

[Janne]

Yes. Much easier, as it is possibly to establish strict "High End" rules.

[TK-421]

hey senator,

i was told information by 2 different dealers. i contacted AP. the result was that they do not use ETA, but use other manufacturers movements. you say that "in the past" they used JLC. this reads to me as if you are saying they are currently making all of their movements since this was all in the past, i apologize for thinking that you were implying that in the "present" they make their all their own movements. you never said, but using the word "past" made me think that you were implying that everying now is in-house. my mistake.

you state that their cases are 35% of the cost, i am not arguing that. however, whether they pay the golfer directly, or give it to a charity, is moot. they are spending money on advertising. this is their biggest cost. so please stop with the brand ambassadors schtick that they are angels working for free. nothing is for free since AP is giving money to their charities of choice.

as for the quality of their watches, i am not arguing that they are not great. i like AP. what i am saying is that i do not understand why an AP is double or triple the cost of an Hublot, Omega, IWC, Rolex, Panerai, Girrard Perragaux, Bremont, VC, insert brand, etc. i have handled many different watches and did not find the finish of the AP to be above and beyond all other watches in order to justify that much more money. so if my eye test did not see a huge difference, then it must be on the inside of the watch. but since some APs were using other manufacturer's movements then i did not understand the difference from say the VC.

i understand paying more for a watch that is completely made by one company. ALS for example.

i stood corrected when AP told me that they do not use ETA, but bear in mind the 2 dealers that told me seemed reputable. believe half of what you hear. this would mean that they were right that AP does not make all their movements, but wrong about ETA movements. i am glad that AP cleared this up for me.

i am not on any mission to prove anything. just wanted to know why so much more expensive.

you seemed to have a mission to prove that AP does not use ETA movements. this has been proven, you were/are correct.

but i still disagree that an AP case is worth twice the price of some watches. for example. i looked at APs and VCs. i found both to have nice cases. however, the VC was half the price of the AP. neither watch had an in-house movement. so why twice the cost? imo it must be branding. you can say that my anonimo is not as luxurious as the AP, but the quality of the AP would have to be 7 times better. i don't think that is the case either.

i understand that each watch i own is marked up because of the brand name. the more luxurious the brand name, the higher the mark up. this is part of what we pay for when buying these watches. your comment about me finding watches at half the price of an AP at the same quality being an outrageous, seems a bit sophmoric on your part. you should ad a "nah nah nah nah boo boo" at the end of it after the thumbs up. i am sure there are people out there that would agree that it is possible to get a watch as good as an AP for less money.

Hey, trooper, you're the one who went off track with your woefully misbegotten and quixotic mission to prove that AP was using Valjoux movements, and now that you've finally been shot down in that regard, you're attempting to imply that, what, an Anonimo's case finishing is the equal of an AP's? Please. (And if not your beloved Anonimo, then who?) So don't go trying to take the higher ground here, because no one is buying what you're selling. Oh, and trust me, we are all more than aware of the insane markups that go hand in hand with the luxury goods industry, but thanks for sharing anyway.

Look, you want an opinion, fine, you've got it. Pity that it isn't an informed one, though.

Regards,
Adam

PS - Still, I do hope that you bought some of those half-the-price-but-all-the-quality-of-AP watches you're going on about. What a bargain!

PPS - AP's brand ambassadors aren't paid, but of course you already knew that.

[craniotes]

C'mon, re-read your posts and you'll see that first, your mission was to prove that AP used ETA movements. No go. Then you moved on to the ubiquitous Valjoux 7750. Shot down. Finally, as a last resort, you decided that AP's high costs aren't justified by their finishing. Your argument? That the gains in terms of finishing should follow a linear price curve (ah, how I do love this old chestnut; the last resort of the newbs and the haters). So, how many times better must the finishing of a Thomas Prescher triple-axis tourbillon be than your vaunted Anonimo to justify its $625K price tag?

Yup, the question here doesn't revolve around my mission, but rather yours. I'm merely trying to point out the inaccuracies of your statements so that folks visiting this thread looking for information don't get led astray.

Like I said, if you want an opinion, you're welcome to it, but do try and make it an informed one.

Regards,
Adam

PS - Oh, and you do realize that APs range in price from just under $20K to well over $300K (more, for their bespoke pieces), right? So, I have to ask, which VC were you comparing to which AP? I was in VC's new boutique just the other day where the cheapest watch I tried on, a white gold Patrimony, was over $30K, and the finish of my $18.9K Diver was definitely on par with it (I didn't bother with the Overseas, since I know from past experience that the average Royal Oak case sports a much nicer and more intricate finish).

PPS - The $60K Patrimony LE I looked at? It houses a JLC-derived automatic movement -- for shame, for shame!

[TK-421]

that's where you're wrong brah. had no mission. first thing i was asking was why were Hublot and AP so expensive when they used standard movements. i was told that these two used ETA. i made the mistake of trusting two ADs. when you stated otherwise i checked with AP because why should i believe you before an AD. i told you that you were correct about the ETA movements, but i was correct about them using other movements.

my original question was about why was the price so much higher than comparable watches. you never answered that, nobody did. imo zenith makes fine watches and the VC that i handled seemed as good as AP. now you may be more qualified to determine the AP casing is better, but to my naked eyes i did not see or feel a difference. so, i couldn't see the price difference justification.

this argument will go round and round because this could be about cars or golf clubs or movies.

so er, um you will continue to think that AP is worth is the money and i will continue to think that it is a great watch that has a higher mark-up because little E wears it on entourage. i have no problem with that.

as far as my anonimo goes its beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

C'mon, re-read your posts and you'll see that first, your mission was to prove that AP used ETA movements. No go. Then you moved on to the ubiquitous Valjoux 7750. Shot down. Finally, as a last resort, you decided that AP's high costs aren't justified by their finishing. Your argument? That the gains in terms of finishing should follow a linear price curve (ah, how I do love this old chestnut; the last resort of the newbs and the haters). So, how many times better must the finishing of a Thomas Prescher triple-axis tourbillon be than your vaunted Anonimo to justify its $625K price tag?

Yup, the question here doesn't revolve around my mission, but rather yours. I'm merely trying to point out the inaccuracies of your statements so that folks visiting this thread looking for information don't get led astray.

Like I said, if you want an opinion, you're welcome to it, but do try and make it an informed one.

Regards,
Adam

PS - Oh, and you do realize that APs range in price from just under $20K to well over $300K (more, for their bespoke pieces), right? So, I have to ask, which VC were you comparing to which AP? I was in VC's new boutique just the other day where the cheapest watch I tried on, a white gold Patrimony, was over $30K, and the finish of my $18.9K Diver was definitely on par with it (I didn't bother with the Overseas, since I know from past experience that the average Royal Oak case sports a much nicer and more intricate finish).

PPS - The $60K Patrimony LE I looked at? It houses a JLC-derived automatic movement -- for shame, for shame!

[craniotes]

Again, you're off-base with your insinuation that AP pays for the facetime they get on Entourage. They don't. Period. End of story. So, while you might enjoy what you feel is your your nudge-nudge-wink-wink moment, once more all you're doing is displaying a complete and utter lack of any factual information. Can you see at all how this might be misleading?

Look, it's one thing to ask questions and seek answers, it's another entirely to couch your opinions as facts, which they are most assuredly not (and yes, that's what you did with your whole ETA/Valjoux odyssey). As for case/dial/movement finishing, true, that's a much more subjective realm, but again, your opinion in this regard is just that, an opinion, and one that clearly isn't based on a whole lot of hands-on evaluation. As someone who owns and has owned pieces from the big three, and who has access to a wide variety of pieces from marques as varied as H. Moser & Cie, FP Journe, Kari Voutilainen, and yes, even your ever-green A. Lange & Sohn, I feel quite safe in stating that AP's reputation for case/dial/movement finishing is well deserved and reflected adequately by their pricing structure. Yes, this is an opinion, but it's also an informed one that came about from quite a bit of research and fondling (if, like me, you're a man of limited means, I don't recommend spending too much time in the company of some of my friends, as jealousy is all but unavoidable).

Of course, since you refuse to give, and so do I, I agree that this debate has become tiresome. To this end, I promise not to add anything further after whatever comment you chose to post next. I will say, however, that it is always refreshing to come across someone who sticks to their guns without resorting to personal attacks. To this end, I salute you.

Now get back to your post.

Regards,
Adam

[Aliisloo]

So what have we proven so far. AP doesn't use ETA. Their movement finishing is great but not as good as ALS. Golfers are over paid. And JLC movements rock!

Now I am going to look for my nearest Anonimo dealer.

Peace

Ali

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner

[iim7v7im7]

Adam (and TK-421),

This is a silly thread.

Of course AP makes some of the finest watches out there and trying to linearize the diminishing returns on exclusive luxury items does not work in watches, automobiles, boats etc. I am exhausted reading this, but like a car wreck, I can't look away (ah the internet...).

The original thread asked which brands belong here? Others have made the cogent comment that which watches belong here (vs. brands) which I happen to agree with. Unfortunately, forums are organized by brands or category (I see many non-dive watches discussed in dive forums actually). One can look at the brand forums and see if a watch that they want to discuss is there and if not they can go to an interest forum (dive, independents, German etc.) or a general forum. Why was this forum created vs. the public forum? I suspect as a catch-all to discuss a variety of luxury horology brands that do not have representation and may merit a seperate dicussion from a general forum. I have suggested some common brands that do not have forum representation. It does not mean that these are the only high-end brands but these are the most common.

A. Lange & Sohne (Richemont)
Audemars Piguet
Blancpain (Swatch Group)
Breguet (Swatch Group)
Cartier (Richemont)
Chopard
Girard-Perrgaux (Sowind)
Jacquet Droz (Swatch Group)
Montlanc (Richemont)
Patek Phillipe
Roger Dubuis (Richemont)
Vacheron Constantin (Richemont)
Ulysse Nardin

There are MANY other brands and watches from brands who cover a broad range of quality.

Stick a fork in it. Its cooked.



Bob

[craniotes]

Mmmmmm... The higher ground. Well played, sir.

Regards,
Adam

[Aliisloo]

Adam (and TK-421),

This is a silly thread.

Of course AP makes some of the finest watches out there and trying to linearize the diminishing returns on exclusive luxury items does not work in watches, automobiles, boats etc. I am exhausted reading this, but like a car wreck, I can't look away (ah the internet...).

The original thread asked which brands belong here? Others have made the cogent comment that which watches belong here (vs. brands) which I happen to agree with. Unfortunately, forums are organized by brands or category (I see many non-dive watches discussed in dive forums actually). One can look at the brand forums and see if a watch that they want to discuss is there and if not they can go to an interest forum (dive, independents, German etc.) or a general forum. Why was this forum created vs. the public forum? I suspect as a catch-all to discuss a variety of luxury horology brands that do not have representation and may merit a seperate dicussion from a general forum. I have suggested some common brands that do not have forum representation. It does not mean that these are the only high-end brands but these are the most common.

A. Lange & Sohne (Richemont)
Audemars Piguet
Blancpain (Swatch Group)
Breguet (Swatch Group)
Cartier (Richemont)
Chopard
Girard-Perrgaux (Sowind)
Jacquet Droz (Swatch Group)
Montlanc (Richemont)
Patek Phillipe
Roger Dubuis (Richemont)
Vacheron Constantin (Richemont)
Ulysse Nardin

There are MANY other brands and watches from brands who cover a broad range of quality.

Stick a fork in it. Its cooked.



Bob

Bob.

Fair list and argument, with one comment. I think this will also be the right forum to discuss topics which relate to more than one high end brands, even if they have their own forum. E.g.. Zenith vs GO this or that.

Ali

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner

[aznseank]

Bob.. among brands on your list.. I dont know why mont blanc and cartier are on there. Did you flip your maurice lacroix for them?lol (don't take it personally..just joking here) MB is no where near high end. It's below omega. It is on par with perhaps Linde Werdelin. Also Jacquet Droz has yet to be prove itself as a powerhouse. They rely on their fairy tales for their marketing scheme. I think Franck Muller would be a fine addition to the list tho. Chopard is also questionable.

Bob's list
A. Lange & Sohne (Richemont)
Audemars Piguet
Blancpain (Swatch Group)
Breguet (Swatch Group)
Cartier (Richemont)
Chopard
Girard-Perrgaux (Sowind)
Jacquet Droz (Swatch Group)
Montlanc (Richemont)
Patek Phillipe
Roger Dubuis (Richemont)
Vacheron Constantin (Richemont)
Ulysse Nardin

My list
A. Lange & Sohne (Richemont)
Audemars Piguet
Blancpain (Swatch Group)
Breguet (Swatch Group)
Girard-Perrgaux (Sowind)
Patek Phillipe
Roger Dubuis (Richemont)
Vacheron Constantin (Richemont)
Franck Muller
*Ulysse Nardin
*JLC (in terms of movement...definately highend)
*IWC
*Chopard

*not all models are high end