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Which Watch Brands Belong in the High-End Forum? Which Ones Do Not?

185K views 656 replies 154 participants last post by  WTSP 
#1 ·
doesn't it seem like there are certain brands that are brought up here, but should not be?

is TAG Heuer a "high-end" watch? i like omega, but is it "high-end"? i have an IWC, but i don't think i would consider it high-end.

i wouldn't expect any arguing about Lange or Patek. any others?

just interested to see what brands people think belong or don't belong here.
 
#168 ·
Nope, the golfers aren't paid either. In some instances they're already fans of the brand and collectors themselves, and in others AP donates to charities of their choosing.

Regards,
Adam
 
#169 ·
Some brands are manufacturing only High End Pieces. Those are easy to call High End>
The problem arises on brands like IWC even Omega. In IWC's case, some movements are ETA, some not. Omega, I believe use maily movements based on ETA? But, they make some truly astonishing pieces, very High End!

What abour Rolex?
 
#171 ·
Yes. Much easier, as it is possibly to establish strict "High End" rules.
 
#173 ·
C'mon, re-read your posts and you'll see that first, your mission was to prove that AP used ETA movements. No go. Then you moved on to the ubiquitous Valjoux 7750. Shot down. Finally, as a last resort, you decided that AP's high costs aren't justified by their finishing. Your argument? That the gains in terms of finishing should follow a linear price curve (ah, how I do love this old chestnut; the last resort of the newbs and the haters). So, how many times better must the finishing of a Thomas Prescher triple-axis tourbillon be than your vaunted Anonimo to justify its $625K price tag?

Yup, the question here doesn't revolve around my mission, but rather yours. I'm merely trying to point out the inaccuracies of your statements so that folks visiting this thread looking for information don't get led astray.

Like I said, if you want an opinion, you're welcome to it, but do try and make it an informed one.

Regards,
Adam

PS - Oh, and you do realize that APs range in price from just under $20K to well over $300K (more, for their bespoke pieces), right? So, I have to ask, which VC were you comparing to which AP? I was in VC's new boutique just the other day where the cheapest watch I tried on, a white gold Patrimony, was over $30K, and the finish of my $18.9K Diver was definitely on par with it (I didn't bother with the Overseas, since I know from past experience that the average Royal Oak case sports a much nicer and more intricate finish).

PPS - The $60K Patrimony LE I looked at? It houses a JLC-derived automatic movement -- for shame, for shame! :roll:
 
#174 ·
that's where you're wrong brah. had no mission. first thing i was asking was why were Hublot and AP so expensive when they used standard movements. i was told that these two used ETA. i made the mistake of trusting two ADs. when you stated otherwise i checked with AP because why should i believe you before an AD. i told you that you were correct about the ETA movements, but i was correct about them using other movements.

my original question was about why was the price so much higher than comparable watches. you never answered that, nobody did. imo zenith makes fine watches and the VC that i handled seemed as good as AP. now you may be more qualified to determine the AP casing is better, but to my naked eyes i did not see or feel a difference. so, i couldn't see the price difference justification.

this argument will go round and round because this could be about cars or golf clubs or movies.

so er, um you will continue to think that AP is worth is the money and i will continue to think that it is a great watch that has a higher mark-up because little E wears it on entourage. i have no problem with that.

as far as my anonimo goes its beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

C'mon, re-read your posts and you'll see that first, your mission was to prove that AP used ETA movements. No go. Then you moved on to the ubiquitous Valjoux 7750. Shot down. Finally, as a last resort, you decided that AP's high costs aren't justified by their finishing. Your argument? That the gains in terms of finishing should follow a linear price curve (ah, how I do love this old chestnut; the last resort of the newbs and the haters). So, how many times better must the finishing of a Thomas Prescher triple-axis tourbillon be than your vaunted Anonimo to justify its $625K price tag?

Yup, the question here doesn't revolve around my mission, but rather yours. I'm merely trying to point out the inaccuracies of your statements so that folks visiting this thread looking for information don't get led astray.

Like I said, if you want an opinion, you're welcome to it, but do try and make it an informed one.

Regards,
Adam

PS - Oh, and you do realize that APs range in price from just under $20K to well over $300K (more, for their bespoke pieces), right? So, I have to ask, which VC were you comparing to which AP? I was in VC's new boutique just the other day where the cheapest watch I tried on, a white gold Patrimony, was over $30K, and the finish of my $18.9K Diver was definitely on par with it (I didn't bother with the Overseas, since I know from past experience that the average Royal Oak case sports a much nicer and more intricate finish).

PPS - The $60K Patrimony LE I looked at? It houses a JLC-derived automatic movement -- for shame, for shame! :roll:
 
#175 · (Edited)
Again, you're off-base with your insinuation that AP pays for the facetime they get on Entourage. They don't. Period. End of story. So, while you might enjoy what you feel is your your nudge-nudge-wink-wink moment, once more all you're doing is displaying a complete and utter lack of any factual information. Can you see at all how this might be misleading?

Look, it's one thing to ask questions and seek answers, it's another entirely to couch your opinions as facts, which they are most assuredly not (and yes, that's what you did with your whole ETA/Valjoux odyssey). As for case/dial/movement finishing, true, that's a much more subjective realm, but again, your opinion in this regard is just that, an opinion, and one that clearly isn't based on a whole lot of hands-on evaluation. As someone who owns and has owned pieces from the big three, and who has access to a wide variety of pieces from marques as varied as H. Moser & Cie, FP Journe, Kari Voutilainen, and yes, even your ever-green A. Lange & Sohn, I feel quite safe in stating that AP's reputation for case/dial/movement finishing is well deserved and reflected adequately by their pricing structure. Yes, this is an opinion, but it's also an informed one that came about from quite a bit of research and fondling (if, like me, you're a man of limited means, I don't recommend spending too much time in the company of some of my friends, as jealousy is all but unavoidable).

Of course, since you refuse to give, and so do I, I agree that this debate has become tiresome. To this end, I promise not to add anything further after whatever comment you chose to post next. I will say, however, that it is always refreshing to come across someone who sticks to their guns without resorting to personal attacks. To this end, I salute you.

Now get back to your post.

Regards,
Adam
 
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#176 ·
So what have we proven so far. AP doesn't use ETA. Their movement finishing is great but not as good as ALS. Golfers are over paid. And JLC movements rock!

Now I am going to look for my nearest Anonimo dealer.

Peace

Ali

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
 
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#177 ·
Adam (and TK-421),

This is a silly thread.

Of course AP makes some of the finest watches out there and trying to linearize the diminishing returns on exclusive luxury items does not work in watches, automobiles, boats etc. I am exhausted reading this, but like a car wreck, I can't look away (ah the internet...).

The original thread asked which brands belong here? Others have made the cogent comment that which watches belong here (vs. brands) which I happen to agree with. Unfortunately, forums are organized by brands or category (I see many non-dive watches discussed in dive forums actually). One can look at the brand forums and see if a watch that they want to discuss is there and if not they can go to an interest forum (dive, independents, German etc.) or a general forum. Why was this forum created vs. the public forum? I suspect as a catch-all to discuss a variety of luxury horology brands that do not have representation and may merit a seperate dicussion from a general forum. I have suggested some common brands that do not have forum representation. It does not mean that these are the only high-end brands but these are the most common.

A. Lange & Sohne (Richemont)
Audemars Piguet
Blancpain (Swatch Group)
Breguet (Swatch Group)
Cartier (Richemont)
Chopard
Girard-Perrgaux (Sowind)
Jacquet Droz (Swatch Group)
Montlanc (Richemont)
Patek Phillipe
Roger Dubuis (Richemont)
Vacheron Constantin (Richemont)
Ulysse Nardin

There are MANY other brands and watches from brands who cover a broad range of quality.

Stick a fork in it. Its cooked.

:)

Bob
 
#178 ·
Mmmmmm... The higher ground. Well played, sir.

Regards,
Adam
 
#179 ·
iim7v7im7 said:
Adam (and TK-421),

This is a silly thread.

Of course AP makes some of the finest watches out there and trying to linearize the diminishing returns on exclusive luxury items does not work in watches, automobiles, boats etc. I am exhausted reading this, but like a car wreck, I can't look away (ah the internet...).

The original thread asked which brands belong here? Others have made the cogent comment that which watches belong here (vs. brands) which I happen to agree with. Unfortunately, forums are organized by brands or category (I see many non-dive watches discussed in dive forums actually). One can look at the brand forums and see if a watch that they want to discuss is there and if not they can go to an interest forum (dive, independents, German etc.) or a general forum. Why was this forum created vs. the public forum? I suspect as a catch-all to discuss a variety of luxury horology brands that do not have representation and may merit a seperate dicussion from a general forum. I have suggested some common brands that do not have forum representation. It does not mean that these are the only high-end brands but these are the most common.

A. Lange & Sohne (Richemont)
Audemars Piguet
Blancpain (Swatch Group)
Breguet (Swatch Group)
Cartier (Richemont)
Chopard
Girard-Perrgaux (Sowind)
Jacquet Droz (Swatch Group)
Montlanc (Richemont)
Patek Phillipe
Roger Dubuis (Richemont)
Vacheron Constantin (Richemont)
Ulysse Nardin

There are MANY other brands and watches from brands who cover a broad range of quality.

Stick a fork in it. Its cooked.

:)

Bob
Bob.

Fair list and argument, with one comment. I think this will also be the right forum to discuss topics which relate to more than one high end brands, even if they have their own forum. E.g.. Zenith vs GO this or that.

Ali

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
 
#180 ·
Bob.. among brands on your list.. I dont know why mont blanc and cartier are on there. Did you flip your maurice lacroix for them?lol (don't take it personally..just joking here) MB is no where near high end. It's below omega. It is on par with perhaps Linde Werdelin. Also Jacquet Droz has yet to be prove itself as a powerhouse. They rely on their fairy tales for their marketing scheme. I think Franck Muller would be a fine addition to the list tho. Chopard is also questionable.

Bob's list
A. Lange & Sohne (Richemont)
Audemars Piguet
Blancpain (Swatch Group)
Breguet (Swatch Group)
Cartier (Richemont)
Chopard
Girard-Perrgaux (Sowind)
Jacquet Droz (Swatch Group)
Montlanc (Richemont)
Patek Phillipe
Roger Dubuis (Richemont)
Vacheron Constantin (Richemont)
Ulysse Nardin

My list
A. Lange & Sohne (Richemont)
Audemars Piguet
Blancpain (Swatch Group)
Breguet (Swatch Group)
Girard-Perrgaux (Sowind)
Patek Phillipe
Roger Dubuis (Richemont)
Vacheron Constantin (Richemont)
Franck Muller
*Ulysse Nardin
*JLC (in terms of movement...definately highend)
*IWC
*Chopard

*not all models are high end
 
#181 ·
There is nothing magical about the names that I proposed and yours may be a "better" list than mine. I was not attempting to measure the companies just think of some which did not have parent forums like Omega, IWC or JLC etc. I was not ranking companies over one another just trying to think of homeless companies. If someone on WIS is buying a Chopard LUC, Jacquet Droz, Montblanc Nicolas Rieussec, Cartier Tourbullon or as you suggest Franck Muller I was thinking of that they might get some answers in this forum. One can come here to talk about ANY watch they want. A participant may now and then suggest that they might find a better answer in another forum thats all.

:)

Bob
 
#184 ·
As I said i an earlier posting in this thread....

A brand being "high-end" is a somwhat amorphous concept meaning different things to different people as others have said. To me, low production volumes, high-level of finish, in-house movement manufacture and innovative features are at the heart of "high-end". Brand pricing among luxury brands is very much driven by the percentage of the watch line made from precious metals vs. steel or titanium etc. To me the brand's were the majority of the watches that they offer are high-end are:
  • A. Lange & Sohne (Richemont)
  • Audemars Piguet
  • Blancpain (Swatch Group)
  • Breguet (Swatch Group)
  • Patek Phillipe
  • Vacheron Constantin (Richemont)
There are of course many others as well, but these half dozen fit the bill as brands in my opinion.

Bob
 
#186 ·
I am a little surprised to see how little mention does GO gets as a high end brand, of course they have some sub 10,000 watches but the finish is beautiful and the movements are in house and if you see their Senator chronometer, you'll fall in love like I did last week, now all I need is 28,000 bucks!

Anyone else here would consider GO high end?
 
#187 ·
m80sarecool said:
I am a little surprised to see how little mention does GO gets as a high end brand, of course they have some sub 10,000 watches but the finish is beautiful and the movements are in house and if you see their Senator chronometer, you'll fall in love like I did last week, now all I need is 28,000 bucks!

Anyone else here would consider GO high end?
Absolutely high end. I love GO. Their movement finish is second only to ALS, PP and AP in my opinion.

Ali

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner
 
#190 ·
looks like an IWC portuguese rip off to me. Not high class. They stole the iconic design of IWC portguese. Any respectable watch company would never do such a thing. One of the main reasons why Tag and OMega will always be ranked below a Rolex is due to its lack of original designs. THe iconic Rolex Sub is copied by countless lower brands in an attempt to pass their watches to look like a Rolex. So I would say no TK. ITs the same with Chronoswiss and Breguet. Back couple years ago, CHronoswiss offered coin edge cases and breguet hands. Last year, Chronoswiss realized that they will be nothing but a Breguet knock off, so they got rid of all that. (this is evident from their sirius vs triple moon calendar) I think the same applies here as well.
 
#191 ·
So many watches borrow design elements from one another. In regard to Chronoswiss, they still utillize coined bezels and Breguet hands on a number of their current models (even some just introduced like the Balance Chronograph) so I don't think your theory regarding their design direction is likely true. There is no doubt that they borrow heavilly from Breguet in those features and dial guilloche as well.

Their brand DNA is driven by coined edges, turnip crown, display case back and lug design. I think that their newer watches were more likely spurred by trying to diversify their line to attract buyers with differing aesthetics. BTW, the fact that Breguet and many other companies are all employing sapphire display case backs today on many of their models is a feature developed by Chronoswiss. These where introduced by Chronoswiss in 1987 and are common among watches today.

:)
 
#192 ·
It's all a matter of the eyes looking at it and taste
and we will never agree completely :-d

There is so many ways to do it some is what I call a look a like,others call it a tribute
some take so many design elements from a expensive brand that you have to go really close to tell the difference
and then the say they just have let them self inspire:roll:

I'm not the biggest fan of some of JLCs divers design although I'm a big JLC fan
they are a bit buzzy to me and don't have such a "strong" design as I see it.

But what I really like when they first came out was that they have there own look with JLC DNA
and they did not look like something else on the marked.

Make sure your brand have it's own DNA
and can be know from all the others on the marked (to me that is the right way to do it)
 
#193 ·
What is a high end watch?
Reading this thread is pretty amusing, I'm surprised at the great variety of opinions and the conviction behind some of those opinions. At the end of the day, given people's opinions on the subject, I'd advocate for the creation of multiple subforums, some of the already have been created: High end mechanical vs. quartz movements.

It should be recognized if a watch is high end due to asthetic design.
+ Materials: gold/plat./diamonds
+ Name: Patek, AP, ect.
+ Complication: minute repeater, chrono.
+ Accuracy: How well the piece keeps time.
+ Workmanship: Manual labor, level of quality, time to make.

For me, all of these factors come into play to some degree. In the end if only one aspect where to be considered
I'd have to say workmanship and manual labor are the most important.

Finally, for all the talk of in house movements, complication, ect... The majority of discussion on this subforum is related to watch classification as high end or not, and is this watch worth $$$. People should discuss the merits and history of a watch rather than simply decreeing it's high end status.

Mike
 
#195 ·
At the risk of beating a seriously dead horse, so to speak, I venture a contribution. It seems at least half of the disagreement on this thread - if not more - comes down to people talking across one another because of different starting assumptions. Let me explain:
1. "High end by watch" - Posters focussing on the characteristics of a specific watch. Common conclusions posters draw are that lots of brands are high end because they make specific watches that are high end (e.g. Cartier has some amazing high end pieces and therefore they are high end, or brands like Omega have become high end since introducing their own movements in some models etc)
2. "High end by brand" Posters focussing on the totality of production / history / finish in a given brand. Conclusions here include the idea that there is a 'top tier' of brands that is hard to break into according to set criteria (there are some good criteria identified in the thread). By this approach certain brands like PP, ALS, VC are all definitely high end, with some brands subjectively there or on the edge, e.g. JLC.

Let me say I think #1 has the greatest possibility of reducing subjectivity. I mean, people largely know a high end watch when they see it (except for quality of finish which a lot of people don't understand), and it takes the brand dialogue out of it. However, there's a lot of merit to tiering brands. .. I learned a lot about the watch world by reading similar - seemingly circular debates - on this and other forums a few years back about which brand is more 'high end' or 'better' than others. At the end of the day different brands cater to different needs and wants of customers and no brand is inherently 'better'. But - we can if we want to - tier the brands to help us and newcomers better navigate the watch world. We can call the tiers High End, then Luxury, then Fashion, and then Affordable etc. or choose whatever tiers you want. Criteria can be placed on High End which are logical - i.e., overwhelming majority are in house movements with significant or 100 percent hand finishing (this gets rid of this "PP makes a quartz" or "Cartier has a high end watch" objections which fundamentally bring us back to Option #1). And so on.

Look, there'll always be subjectivity and I would never presume to decide for any other WIS how they should view the world. So we'll never get away from that aspect. However, I do think we could reach much broader agreement if each post is clear- are we talking about a Brand or a Watch? A fashion brand may indeed make a high end watch and a high end brand may make a fashion watch etc.

Just a thought.
 
#196 ·
this is very well said. the original title does state brand, not watches. #2 is what should be debated. i think the brands you mentioned were spot on. i would say JLC is in there. Zenith on the cusp maybe? AP?

that is what i was looking to discuss more so than an individual watches. i mean IWC and Hamilton use a lot of the same movements. so just because IWC has some stellar pieces, as a brand are they top tier?

At the risk of beating a seriously dead horse, so to speak, I venture a contribution. It seems at least half of the disagreement on this thread - if not more - comes down to people talking across one another because of different starting assumptions. Let me explain:
1. "High end by watch" - Posters focussing on the characteristics of a specific watch. Common conclusions posters draw are that lots of brands are high end because they make specific watches that are high end (e.g. Cartier has some amazing high end pieces and therefore they are high end, or brands like Omega have become high end since introducing their own movements in some models etc)
2. "High end by brand" Posters focussing on the totality of production / history / finish in a given brand. Conclusions here include the idea that there is a 'top tier' of brands that is hard to break into according to set criteria (there are some good criteria identified in the thread). By this approach certain brands like PP, ALS, VC are all definitely high end, with some brands subjectively there or on the edge, e.g. JLC.

Let me say I think #1 has the greatest possibility of reducing subjectivity. I mean, people largely know a high end watch when they see it (except for quality of finish which a lot of people don't understand), and it takes the brand dialogue out of it. However, there's a lot of merit to tiering brands. .. I learned a lot about the watch world by reading similar - seemingly circular debates - on this and other forums a few years back about which brand is more 'high end' or 'better' than others. At the end of the day different brands cater to different needs and wants of customers and no brand is inherently 'better'. But - we can if we want to - tier the brands to help us and newcomers better navigate the watch world. We can call the tiers High End, then Luxury, then Fashion, and then Affordable etc. or choose whatever tiers you want. Criteria can be placed on High End which are logical - i.e., overwhelming majority are in house movements with significant or 100 percent hand finishing (this gets rid of this "PP makes a quartz" or "Cartier has a high end watch" objections which fundamentally bring us back to Option #1). And so on.

Look, there'll always be subjectivity and I would never presume to decide for any other WIS how they should view the world. So we'll never get away from that aspect. However, I do think we could reach much broader agreement if each post is clear- are we talking about a Brand or a Watch? A fashion brand may indeed make a high end watch and a high end brand may make a fashion watch etc.

Just a thought.
 
#197 ·
Maybe we could go this way. Lots of thoughts borrowed from previous posters so I am not passing this off as my own.

High End Brand Criteria (* means a minimum criteria, and + means it helps but maybe not required in all cases)
*Overwhelming majority or 100% of production run feature in house movements with hand finishing of the highest standards
*Overwhelming majority of components besides the movement are hand made or hand finished and a bare minimum of parts of mass produced. (An implication is that high volume brands rarely meet this criteria)
*The brand demonstrates consistent and long run ability (i.e. 5-10 years plus - I don't favor the decades as litmus test approach) to both produce time pieces with significant complications and also innovate those complications over time. Complications should be available in flagship models from the brand and not produced only as limited editions to demonstrate prowess.
*Materials are of the highest grade.
+Innovations in the use of materials or creation of alloys / production processes may play a significant role in the brand identity
*New movements should be designed / introduced periodically
*Watches with differing sizes, shapes, and functionality should be using different movements which logically fit the sizes and shapes being presented
+The brand is able to demonstrate prowess and design leadership across different types of watches (e.g. Sport vs Casual vs Ladies)

Luxury
*The large majority of production run feature in house movements with high quality hand finishing
*While key components beyond the movement may be mass produced the quality should be impeccable (e.g. polished or brushed high grade steel etc)
*Materials are of the highest grade.
*New movements should be designed / introduced periodically
+The brand is able to demonstrate prowess and design leadership across different types of watches (e.g. Sport vs Casual vs Ladies)

Below this level others can think about what fits in for Fashion or Affordable categories etc

To address queries on a couple brands that might sit in between. I love JLC as a brand but still I question whether they are a truly High End brand. They are definitely close and might be on the highest end of Luxury timepieces. I'm glad they are welcome on this forum. They meet most of those criteria. That said, the quality of the finishing on the movements does not seem to match up in my estimation to ALS, VC, or PP. Anyway, I am open to be convinced as I'm not an expert. Zenith I think falls down on a couple of points around varying movement designs / sizes for different purposes and innovation of the core movement line in particular. I really like the brand and have owned them in the past.

I definitely see Rolex (which I also own!), Omega, Cartier and many other recognizable names as being in the Luxury segment .. now some are 'upwardly mobile' and are doing more and more of higher end watch making .. but the brand as a whole don't match the criteria of High End using the above model.

I hope this helps!
 
#198 ·
Here I'll do a few more while I'm at it. I'm omitting brands I'm not familiar enough with in terms of movements / product line, how they innovate and/or I have not handled closely enough to inspect the quality of the finish etc. Brands I don't know well enough include AP, Breguet, UN, the niche independent houses (Dufour, FP journey etc), although I suspect most or all of these qualify easily as high end... Just a reminder this segmentation is not an attempt at making one brand 'better' than another. Its just a segmentation exercise.

High End
PP
ALS
VC
GO (might be on the lower end of High End but I think they still might qualify)

Luxury
JLC
IWC
Panerai
Zenith
Cartier
Rolex
Grand Seiko

Below Luxury (Fashion, or Affordable watches)
Tag, Seiko, Longines, Baume & Mercier, Raymond Weil, etc
 
#201 · (Edited)
This is a very interesting thread to read. Its a loaded question thread and the reality is the watch making industry is no different than any machine making industry in the world. Any machine making industry has people always improving on other peoples ideas. Some ideas get stolen, some get sold and make people very rich. Watches today to people are out. You can thank the cell phone for that. Go to a high school and look to see how many teens wear watches today.
 
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