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Which Watch Brands Belong in the High-End Forum? Which Ones Do Not?

185K views 656 replies 154 participants last post by  WTSP 
#1 ·
doesn't it seem like there are certain brands that are brought up here, but should not be?

is TAG Heuer a "high-end" watch? i like omega, but is it "high-end"? i have an IWC, but i don't think i would consider it high-end.

i wouldn't expect any arguing about Lange or Patek. any others?

just interested to see what brands people think belong or don't belong here.
 
#293 ·
Hi

I'm new to this forum and couldn't resist posting my first comment in reply to the topic of who uses ETA based movements. ETA movements are everywhere you expect them to be, from the likes of Swatch and Tissot all the way up the ladder to bigger luxury brands such as Omega, TAGHeuer, Cartier and Breitling. That I can accept to a certain degree, but when a brand touts itself as a high end watch manufacture it should carefully consider its stance going forward!

I am a qualified watchmaker with experience on this matter. Believe me when I say I have seen what should have remained hidden inside their big brand 18K gold cases. The sad fact is that many high end watch manufactures are guilty of placing profits above all else. At the very top you may well find an abundance of shiny new tourbillons and minute repeating perpetual calenders etc. launched at SIHH and Basel every year, but what keeps the coffers full are those entry-level and mid-tier pieces that prey on the unsuspecting public who dream of buying into high horology. It is there that you will discover, hidden behind solid case backs, all the Valjoux movements you can stomach. My personal opinion on Valjoux is biased, only because I find it an economical movement when inside a $2,000 watch. When that same movement is housed inside a $20,000 timepiece I find it extremely lacking, disturbing, misrepresenting and disappointing! One example springs to mind, that of a 1990's AP using an unadorned (read: cheap) Valjoux 7750 movement with a perpetual calender module stuck onto it. There are of course many more such examples, but one should be enough to prove my point that greed is alive and well!

Regards,

Johannes

ps: Adam, this AP in question was not a fake!!
 
#294 ·
:-s You make them sound like the pyramid builders and bubble makers of Wall Street.
Hi

I'm new to this forum and couldn't resist posting my first comment in reply to the topic of who uses ETA based movements. ETA movements are everywhere you expect them to be, from the likes of Swatch and Tissot all the way up the ladder to bigger luxury brands such as Omega, TAGHeuer, Cartier and Breitling. That I can accept to a certain degree, but when a brand touts itself as a high end watch manufacture it should carefully consider its stance going forward!

I am a qualified watchmaker with experience on this matter. Believe me when I say I have seen what should have remained hidden inside their big brand 18K gold cases. The sad fact is that many high end watch manufactures are guilty of placing profits above all else. At the very top you may well find an abundance of shiny new tourbillons and minute repeating perpetual calenders etc. launched at SIHH and Basel every year, but what keeps the coffers full are those entry-level and mid-tier pieces that prey on the unsuspecting public who dream of buying into high horology. It is there that you will discover, hidden behind solid case backs, all the Valjoux movements you can stomach. My personal opinion on Valjoux is biased, only because I find it an economical movement when inside a $2,000 watch. When that same movement is housed inside a $20,000 timepiece I find it extremely lacking, disturbing, misrepresenting and disappointing! One example springs to mind, that of a 1990's AP using an unadorned (read: cheap) Valjoux 7750 movement with a perpetual calender module stuck onto it. There are of course many more such examples, but one should be enough to prove my point that greed is alive and well!

Regards,

Johannes

ps: Adam, this AP in question was not a fake!!
 
#295 ·
Many people have been including Blancpain and Breguet in their "high end list," and while I can agree with that, I don't think they are as important to the horological world as JLC, which many people have ranked as lower.

If you look at their history with watches such as the Reverso Gyrotourbillon, the Gyrotourbillon, the new Duometre a spherotourbillon, the Master Minute Repeater, etc you see that they are on top of horological innovation. I don't even think AP and VC is innovating like JLC.

So for me, I see high-end watches as being watches from a company that innovates, has a rich history, and feature elegant and tasteful designs.

I think that JLC even though it sells pieces that are relatively inepensive, I see it as being a superior producer of watches than Blancpain and Bruguet.

So here's my list:
High end, in terms of horological significance:
Patek
Jaeger
Vacheron
Audemars
A Lange
Glashutte
And I'd include Ulysse Nardin on this list because of watches like the GMT perpetual, the Moonstruck, and the Freak.

That's not to say that Rolex, Omega, Breitling, and similar watch makers aren't making good watches. And of course Blancpain and Brugeut still produce fantastic watches like the Fifty Fathoms.

Just my 2 cents
 
#303 ·
I say a watch brand that makes a watch line $7,500 or more that people actually buy. This brand is the definition of high end to me....
 
#306 ·
Spit161 said:
Luxury Brands?
Rolex,
Breitling,
Omega,
IWC,
Bulgari,
Panerai,
Hublot,
Tag,
Bremont,
Montblanc,
Bell and Ross.

High-end Brands:
Patek,
JLC,
AP,
Blancpain,
Cartier,
Lange,
Greubel Forsey,
Corum,
Breguet,
Glashutte...

cheers.
I dont own a "high end" watch but I do own a couple luxury watches. This statement is right on!
 
#309 ·
About 1h later... I finished reading 16 pages
Very interesting...and I kind of agree with this guy...

Luxury Brands?
Rolex,
Breitling,
Omega,
IWC,
Bulgari,
Panerai,
Hublot,
Tag,
Bremont,
Montblanc,
Bell and Ross.

High-end Brands:
Patek,
JLC,
AP,
Blancpain,
Cartier,
Lange,
Greubel Forsey,
Corum,
Breguet,
Glashutte...
 
#310 ·
I would replace G.Seiko with UN. My personal opinion is that G.Seiko is not high end. As mentioned before, Blancpain and Breguet are definitey up there. JLC is definitely next on my list.
 
#318 ·
Just remember, this is all peoples personal opinions. Yes some should be there without a doubt. some might be a bit more questionable/debatable.

AP is Ademars Piguet
As for Zenith, I think they make a fantastic watch. The finish on the one I own isn't far off from the finish on my JLC I probably would put them under the same category as Rolex though. But I don't think I'd put TAG in that category, though again, that one is arguable because they have made some notable contributions to the world of Horologie in recent times. But still, I think only those specific watches should be in the category, not the entire brand.
 
#323 ·
No love for Vacheron?
 
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#325 ·
I have read with great interest this thread more than half way through so forgive me if this has already been mentioned.
Oh and I am new in the high end section here but I post regularly elsewhere on watchuseek
What has been omitted from the discussion is the term High End its self. if memory serves high end became the phrase of choice during the eighties advertising folks trying to tell Yuppies where they should blow their discretionary funds. High end in those days had little to do with real quality and all to do with image and perceived quality. It was more about image than anything else. Frankly I think using the term "highend" is a bit of a slam for most of the fine watches mentioned. They are way beyond high end at least as the public perceives high end. If you ask the average joe in the street what the best watch brand he knows and I will bet the farm he says rollex, Why because rollex did a really great pr job projecting themselves in the eighties as the in watch to have. Rollex may or may not be a fine watch but its the one the unwashed masses will recognize on your wrist and rip off when the b and e your home.
Many years ago when I lived in Cambridge Ma. I owned a leica M2 and an olympus om1. When I was broken into the om1 was stolen along with some other things and the leica was left. The om was hot then in the news and advertising even though the leica was worth three times as much

If build quality accuracy fit and finish are the ultimate arbiter then the GS very fine would be the just about the top of the heap but sigh its Japanese and it seems no Japanese watch will make your list even one forty two or so years old. you remember the watch that destroyed the swiss at the chronometer competitions. But you gotta hand it to the Swiss they know how to handle a threat, after all the hand wringing and angst they cancelled future competitions. When they resumed them years later they said it was thier ball and the japanese were not invited to play.
It is not for me to propose you accept the GS very fine as one of the all time best watches in history but the record speaks for itself. Incidentally as far as hand finished or bench built the early GS through the 6146 were pretty much bench made. The introduction the the 28000 series in 71 or so ushered in the automated assembly.
 
#326 ·
You've missed the point though. This is 30 years on. Things change meaning :p

Actually, I think the titles are backwards. Or the name "high end" should be something a little more meaningful then just "high end"

Like hyper luxury or luxury exotica.

It's like saying "high end cars" are BMW and Mercedes, but when you compare them to rolls, and Bently, high end kind of loses meaning.

Sadly though, this thread is 17 pages in, and already set in a direction. So there's not much chance of changing wording.

All that being said, "luxury" fits the bill in my opinion of the tag, rolex, omega group. And your description including "yuppies" is pretty much why.
Sadly, there are a few ideas like to see out of that list, but I don't believe they should be in the "high end" list either mostly due to the bad image some watches give the luxury list.
 
#329 ·
of all those in that list, you pick zenith to pick on and compare to Cartier???

I fully believe Zenith belongs there over many others in that list.

But yes, Cartier should be in that list. And if we watch closely, it might one day move it's way onto the high-end list, if they make some good choices in the near future and get better at decorating/finishing their new in house movement.
 
#331 · (Edited)
DISCLAIMER:

This is just a statistical opinion based list. Your opinion may vary due to different ideals and etc. As this is just an opinion based list, there is not need to be put out because of it. What you believe should be placed in one list, but isn't in the list you would like it to be, is open for debate. It is also debatable that there are some watches from some brands that definitely are high end while the rest of the brand is just luxury. This list is just for fun, and to be taken as just that. Please feel free to modify the list, but be warned, not everyone will necessarily agree.


High-end Brands:

Patek,
JLC,
AP,
Blancpain,
Jaquet Droz
Cartier,
Lange,
Greubel Forsey,
Corum,
Breguet,
Glashutte Original,
(added "Original" to avoid confusion as many german brands use Glashutte in their names)
Girard Perregaux,
Vacheron Constantin

Luxury Brands?

Rolex,
Breitling,
Omega,
IWC,
Bulgari,
Panerai,
Hublot,
Zenith,
Bremont,
Montblanc,
Bell and Ross,
Cartier,
Parrelet,
and many more...
 
#333 · (Edited)
This is my proposal how to rate different brands. Criteria is 1) history of the brand & recognition 2) technical complexity/quality 3) price.
I rate brands according to where most of their sold watches belong (e.g. no point to put brand in hi-end if they produce tourbillon, but most of the watches sold are modified ETAs - I hope you get idea). It's impossible to justify why brand on the next row is less important, but trend should be visible in +/- 5 rows.
Of course any such list is somehow subjective and biased, but I tried to stay objective.

Watch Analog watch Watch accessory Fashion accessory Jewellery


HI-END (old history, complicated movements, highly decorated, typical price 10kEUR+)

Patek Philippe
Vacheron Constantin
Breguet
A.Lange & Sohne
Audemars Piguet
Jaeger-LeCoultre
Blancpain
FP Journe
Glashutte Original
Gerald Genta
Girard-Perregaux

Font Auto part Fictional character Watch


HI-TECH / INDEPENDENT (innovative solutions, exotic materials, often quite new companies, but high prices 15k-300kEUR, listed in no particular order)

Richard Mille
Harry Winston
MB&F
Urwerk
Voutilainen
Romaine Jerome
De Grisogono
Habring
Hautlence
Konstantin Chaykin
Sarpaneva
Speake-Marin
Thomas Prescher
Gronefeld
Devon

Analog watch Watch Fashion accessory Font Jewellery


PREMIUM (well known manufacturers, perfect quality, some got in-house movements, typical price 2-10k EUR)

IWC
Rolex
Omega
Ulysse Nardin
Frank Muller
Panerai
Zenith
Piaget
Cartier
Hublot
Breitling
Chopard
Corum
Tag Heuer
Bell&Ross
Nomos
Chronoswiss
Baume & Mercier
Maurice Lacroix
Perrelet
Grand Seiko
Linde Werdelin
U-Boat
Longines
Montblanc

Watch Analog watch Watch accessory Fashion accessory Material property


QUALITY watches (entry level swiss watches and alike, typical price 300-3kEUR)

Rado
Tissot
Mido
Hamilton
Frederique Constant
Oris
Certina
Raymond Weil
Sinn
Fortis
Seiko
Revue Thommen
Bremont
Stowa
Junghans
Movado
Seagull
Laco
Archimede
Christopher Ward
Magrette
Steinhart
Lum-Tec
Vostok-Europe
Kemmner

Watch Analog watch Watch accessory Fashion accessory Jewellery


BASIC (companies that produce watches, quartz or simple chinese mechanical movements, affordable prices)

Citizen
Grovana
TW Steel
Jacques Lemans
Swatch
Skagen
Festina
Orient
Lorus
Casio
Q&Q
HMT
Parnis
Tao
Alpha

Watch Analog watch Watch accessory Fashion accessory Brand


FASHION (flashy design - often copying famous designs, mostly quartz movements, typical price 70-500 EUR)

Emporio Armani
Calvin Klein
Diesel
Nixon
Guess
Hugo Boss
BMW etc.
 
#334 · (Edited)
This is my proposal how to rate different brands. Criteria is 1) history of the brand & recognition 2) technical complexity/quality 3) price.
I rate brands according to where most of their sold watches belong (e.g. no point to put brand in hi-end if they produce tourbillon, but most of the watches sold are modified ETAs - I hope you get idea). It's impossible to justify why brand on the next row is less important, but trend should be visible in +/- 5 rows.
Of course any such list is somehow subjective and biased, but I tried to stay objective.

View attachment 695234

HI-END (old history, complicated movements, highly decorated, typical price 10kEUR+)

Patek Philippe
Vacheron Constantin
Breguet
A.Lange & Sohne
Audemars Piguet
Jaeger-LeCoultre
Blancpain
FP Journe
Glashutte Original
Gerald Genta
Girard-Perregaux

View attachment 695235

HI-TECH / INDEPENDENT (innovative solutions, exotic materials, often quite new companies, but high prices 15k-300kEUR, listed in no particular order)

Richard Mille
Harry Winston
MB&F
Urwerk
Voutilainen
Romaine Jerome
De Grisogono
Habring
Hautlence
Konstantin Chaykin
Sarpaneva
Speake-Marin
Thomas Prescher
Gronefeld
Devon

View attachment 695236

PREMIUM (well known manufacturers, perfect quality, some got in-house movements, typical price 2-10k EUR)

IWC
Rolex
Omega
Ulysse Nardin
Frank Muller
Panerai
Zenith
Piaget
Cartier
Hublot
Breitling
Chopard
Corum
Tag Heuer
Bell&Ross
Nomos
Chronoswiss
Baume & Mercier
Maurice Lacroix
Perrelet
Grand Seiko
Linde Werdelin
U-Boat
Longines
Montblanc

View attachment 695237

QUALITY watches (entry level swiss watches and alike, typical price 300-3kEUR)

Rado
Tissot
Mido
Hamilton
Frederique Constant
Oris
Certina
Raymond Weil
Sinn
Fortis
Seiko
Revue Thommen
Bremont
Stowa
Junghans
Movado
Seagull
Laco
Archimede
Christopher Ward
Magrette
Steinhart
Lum-Tec
Vostok-Europe
Kemmner

View attachment 695238

BASIC (companies that produce watches, quartz or simple chinese mechanical movements, affordable prices)

Citizen
Grovana
TW Steel
Jacques Lemans
Swatch
Skagen
Festina
Orient
Lorus
Casio
Q&Q
HMT
Parnis
Tao
Alpha

View attachment 695239

FASHION (flashy design - often copying famous designs, mostly quartz movements, typical price 70-500 EUR)

Emporio Armani
Calvin Klein
Diesel
Nixon
Guess
Hugo Boss
BMW etc.
This isn't bad actually, BUT if you are going to separate Grand Seiko from Seiko, then surely you'd toss Montblanc Villeret 1858 into high-end and leave Montblanc Le Locle in premium/luxury...or Montblanc Le Locle/Villeret 1858 into high-end and leave Montblanc 4810 in premium/luxury...a change I'd think would be made regardless of the lists used. And you'd certainly put Orient Star into quality watches and leave Orient in basic. These are the types of issues developed when generalization attempts are made.
 
#336 · (Edited)
I have two candidates:

One is relatively cheap at only $33 big ones



OFFICIAL ROLEX WEBSITE - Timeless Luxury Watches

The other one -- well, might as well dream big:

Edward Piguet Tourbillon Skeleton - only $280,364.00 (not sure what the $364 is for -- maybe the strap?)
 
#340 ·
Everyone have their own opinions of what is high-end. It may be best to seek master horologists to form their opinions of what they consider to be high-end watches (not high end brands).

For people to form a list of manufacturers as high end producers is puerile as their products may consists of both ends of the scale.

My personal opinion of high end are:- Quality of material + quality of manufacture + high accuracy.

High price, high prestige, history does not equate to high end.
 
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