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Which Watch Brands Belong in the High-End Forum? Which Ones Do Not?

185K views 656 replies 154 participants last post by  WTSP 
#1 ·
doesn't it seem like there are certain brands that are brought up here, but should not be?

is TAG Heuer a "high-end" watch? i like omega, but is it "high-end"? i have an IWC, but i don't think i would consider it high-end.

i wouldn't expect any arguing about Lange or Patek. any others?

just interested to see what brands people think belong or don't belong here.
 
#343 ·
no offence to any of the watch brands but... how are Orient n Citizen watches in the same category as.... Parnis n Tao??
 
#344 ·
@AaaVee

Confused that you listed FP Journe as a high-end brand based on all factors including history, and then put Voutilanen etc. as independent contemporary makers. I thought FP Journe's founder (i.e., FP Journe) is still alive and his boutique is on the same historical footing as any other independent contemporary maker. Is there something I'm missing? Journe is not a Patek or even a A. Lange when it comes to history, right?
 
#348 ·
the categories look more like it was being conjured up heavily based on prices rather than history etc.
apart from price, I fail to comprehend how B&R is being judged to be in the same league as the likes of Rolex, Omega n Zenith?
 
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#347 ·
I would compare Bremont to Sinn or Fortis
 
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#353 ·
I would not consider any Omega a high end watch. They are not in the same league as Lange, Patek, Vacheron, AP, Breguet or even Blancpain. IWC is upper, but not high end, nor would I consider a Tag high end because it has a Zenith movement.
 
#354 ·
A tag with a zenith movement moves it into a better quality, or did I misread your comment?

If I read correctly, then tag is by no means high end, but zenith, while not a spectacular company, will run circles around tag when it comes to quality. Maybe you meant ETA?
 
#359 ·
Perhaps Credor might go into the top category, but I generally would not favor putting brand segments (Grand Seiko and Montblanc Villeret) in one list, and the rest of the brand in another. I feel that the entire brand must merit placement in a category.

Nice job AaaVee, though I am surprised you would place Gerald Genta and Girard Perrageaux in the top category, they have produced much that has been unremarkable, particularly Gerald Genta.
 
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#364 · (Edited)
The more I look at this list the more I agree with you.

That said, revisiting TK's original post, it seems the goal of this thread was to refine the definition of high end as some were posting about those "high end" Omega PO's & B&M Capelands when they belong elsewhere. I know that the original intent was brands, but maybe that is too broad a brush stroke? I mean I fail to see how this would be the incorrect forum to discuss a UN Sonata Silicum or Freak, a Piaget Polo 45, or a Montblanc Villeret. Similarly I fail to see how a GO Sport Evolution or Senator Sixties would necessarily qualify.
 
#366 · (Edited)
I am not the foremost authority on watches but to me, if you want to talk high-end on a brand level then you need to break it does as follows:

1- brand history, as others have said, what have they contributed to the art of watch making.

2 - quality, ALL of their pieces need to be made with the same level of quality when it comes to materials used, movements, etc.

3 - hand made, it is not "high-end" to program a computer to put it together, honestly. Part of #1 comes into play here and just like any other piece of jewelery a quality piece should have all components stitched together by the hands of a skilled craftsman. Just like #2 this should be all of the manufacturers pieces.

Again, I will not say I know everything about anything when it comes to watches but that's my opinion. Price does not matter one bit, to hit those three areas you will pay a pretty penny but as others charge insane amounts for rubbish pieces price is a worthless qualifier in many ways.

With all of that said the list of manufacturers who fit the bill is extremely small and truely high-end.
 
#375 · (Edited)
I don't think you can ever settle the 'what is high end' argument because it is always going to mean different things to many people.

What if for example a brand new watchmaker started up (not Swiss) and released a watch that was better made, with higher end materials, more accurate than any Swiss chronometer? Most people would not classify it as high end because it doesn't have a high end name attached.

There are many others who care only about the name on the dial. For others it's solely about what goes on inside. I've already seen others post above me that they can't imagine paying more than 500-1000 to buy a quartz. There are many others who can't understand why the watch that costs more keeps worse time. Others will simply say that it can't be high end if it isn't Swiss.

With any designer item, a huge amount of it's 'high end' perception comes purely down to who's name is on it. A watch is different because it a a functional item as well as piece of jewellery. But then again it is also confounded by the fact that a $50 quartz will still be more accurate than a $50,000 automatic, yet at the same time less 'romantic' in the eyes of the wearer.

I guess it is a bit like the difference between someone who prefers classic cars to modern cars. A classic car lover would never dream of replacing their carburettors with Electronic Fuel Injection, despite the fact that it does the same job easier, cheaper and better and doesn't lose tune.

Like with many items, often something is high end purely because the company that makes it says its high end, and then charges accordingly. Often people decide for themselves what is high end because of what a certain brand means to them. For example, how many Seamasters do you think Omega has sold (and at what increased price) based purely because they drove a dumptruck full of money to the front doors of UA and MGM studios?

I guess a lot of it depends who you are tying to impress the most. Yourself? Other watch enthusiasts? The average person you meet? Or that girl at the bar?
 
#377 ·
 
#388 · (Edited)
what about Carl F. Bucherer? would you consider this high end? i really like their watches quite a bit. does anyone know if their movements are ALL in-house? or just some of them in-house? these watches use movement CFB 1964. any knowledge of their watches by any owners would be appreciated.




 
#389 · (Edited)
Not to me, a few years ago (2007) i liked one of their models called Patravi Traveltec and was ready to pull the trigger on it, then changed my mind and bought JLC master world geographic instead. CFB brand history and movements etc...seem too enigmatic to me, when you go on their website and try to look for some informations you'd be disappointed by the short paragraphs, like we say in French " Je reste sur ma faim". No much information given to the customers in terms of movement (100% manufacture or modified or whatsoever) nor in terms of history of the brand through time (a 3 short paragraphs) so to me i'd be on a thin ice to drop 6~10 k on a timepiece that doesn't say much about itself, its history is too obscure to my liking. Just my opinion!
Here's a link to their website that you might want to check out:

Movement - Carl F. Bucherer

History.
Entrepreneurs are individuals who have an idea and dare to do something new; individuals who follow their vision and go their own way, like Carl Friedrich Bucherer. With his passion for watchmaking and his creative energy, Carl Friedrich Bucherer founded his company in Lucerne, Switzerland in 1888, which is still entirely family-owned today.
The founder's philosophy continues to characterize the Carl F. Bucherer brand and its timepieces today. As the only watch brand to call the heart of Switzerland its home, Carl F. Bucherer was able to follow a wholly independent path of development and will continue to design the future according to its own visions and always keep a step ahead of the time.
Seriously? bla bla blabla bla that's all what it means to me, these sentences could be applied to any new brand in the market that pretends to be swiss made but uses components from anywhere else, even Invicta can do a better essay than this :)

 
#391 ·
New to the forum, new to this sub forum and pretty new to watch collecting. This thread has been very entertaining and informative. It is difficult to assess general opinion fromm few responses. Reading through all 20 (where's the Advil?) threads has given me a better sense of the lay of the land. I own watches from most segments listed, starting with an ESQ, Movado, Tag, Brietling and just last evening agreed to purchase a JLC. I agree with the listing posted lastly (dont remember what thread it was in, but I like the way it was broken down into new subgroups). As far as this forum, I think a watch owner should go to his specific watch brand sub forum first, and if they do not receive an answer that is suitable, try this subforum. That seems to have been the. Initial intent. I plan to become involved in the JLC subforum with occasional posts to this one. I'll post pictures of my JLC when I receive it.
 
#392 ·
i just went on wikipedia and carl f. bucherer is not even on there. i like amine's point about them not giving much information on their website. you think that someone from the company would put info on wikipedia regarding the company.
 
#396 · (Edited)
Great thread :)

Sort of new here, getting a collection together and this discussion is definitely an interesting one. I think sorting brands into buckets is a simple task, just ask some binary questions and see where the brands fall. However, the sticky part seems to be that people answer the questions differently, which changes which bucket each brand falls into. Over the course of this thread, the I definitely think the evolution of the list has been a positive one.

My own 2 cents:

While sorting the brands, you must consider the brand as a whole, like considering a dataset. Having a one ( or several ) flyaway data point ( Invicta makes a Tourbillion, etc ) shouldn't change where the primary set lies. ( Toyota can make a car that competes at the Le Mans, but no-one should consider them a sports car company ).

By the same logic on the other spectrum end, AP can make some quartz watches, but it's not proof they should have their status lowered.

I think separating "Hi-End" from "Hi-Tech/Independent" is a great idea, but the "Premium" bucket is too large, and should probably be split into 2 or 3 tiers.

P.S. I'd also put Roger Dubuis into the Hi-End category, as it satisfies all the requirements ( except maybe the history part...? )
 
#402 · (Edited)
Uh..., okay.

:roll:

Again with the undervaluation of JLC by a new member. Is there some serious misinformation going around out there right now, or what? So strange....

Dude, look up JLC Grande Sonnerie. (EDIT: Here you go: http://www.ablogtoread.com/jaeger-lecoultre-hybris-mechanica-grande-sonnerie-thoughts-on-the-most-complicated-watch-in-the-world/) It retailed at a mere $2,500,000.00 USD. If that's not "luxury," I don't know what is. And beyond the haute horlogerie, their more mainstream pieces are nothing if not world class, in every regard.
 
#414 ·
Your Definidtion Of High-end Watches

This topic might have been discussed before somewhere, maybe extensively. I have recently got hooked on mechanical watches and wonder what you watch aficionados think high-end watches are. I know this is sort of a broad question but think each one of you should have your own set standards. It could be a brand name (overall fame) or a price range or both as a lot of brand names have products in tiered price ranges. Some might sort out by in-house movement.

For me, it is majorly determined by the prices (set by maker and demand). Generally, I believe MSRP reflects overall quality with some exceptions. Some makers inflate MSRP with heavy discounts.

Some might argue that they go for in-house movement. Personally, I do not get too crazy about in-house movements except some legendary watch makers which started their own movements and still exist from their inception. Other than those few, I would say most claimed in-house movements are somewhat based on legendary ETA. I might be wrong but think so. I see some makers started inflating (a lot) their prices starting from time when they said they developed their own movements. One typical example is Panerai. Even Rolex now uses their own movements which are considered inferior to legendary Zenith movements they used to use. Again, personally, I do not see any advantage of the in-house movements over ubiquitous ETA movements. I do not know about reliability but can say that ETA movements (modified/fortified ETA movement) are more accurate than some in-house movements. For example, all my Ball, Dubey & Schanldenbrand, Anonimo, BRM watches with ETA or modified ETA movements are more accurate than my Maurice Lacroix Masterpiece watches with in-house movements.

I would put more weight to build material and quality than the in-house movements. I would say MSRP and street prices by demand definitely show their build material/quality.

So, all in all, I consider all the major brand names (Anonimo to Zenith) over say $7000 MSRP (or $2000 street) high-end watches. By the way, my favorites are Ball TMT watches, Anonimo 2007 Crono, Dubey & Schaldenbrand Sprial One/Sixty, BRM Hexagonal Titanium Carbon Fiber Racer and Wyler El Camino Code R Ceramic. I like my Maurice Lacroix Masterpiece Reveil Globe too but see it not up to the others in accuracy.
 
#419 ·
Re: Your Definidtion Of High-end Watches

[...] Personally, I do not get too crazy about in-house movements except some legendary watch makers which started their own movements and still exist from their inception. Other than those few, I would say most claimed in-house movements are somewhat based on legendary ETA. I might be wrong but think so. I see some makers started inflating (a lot) their prices starting from time when they said they developed their own movements. One typical example is Panerai. Even Rolex now uses their own movements which are considered inferior to legendary Zenith movements they used to use. [...]
Let's just say that you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet.
 
#415 · (Edited)
Re: Your Definidtion Of High-end Watches

Come on!
Half way down the high-end forum topics...
Forty two pages worth of argument...
You don't even have to use the search function...

Warning...you will find little consensus.

EDIT: Actually this is covered twice on the High-End Forum cover page...
 
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#417 ·
Re: Your Definidtion Of High-end Watches

thread merged!
 
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