Hmmmm, we're way off topic by now, but I have to ask: what happened to the (maybe not so) good old
white lie?
I pride myself in "ahum" never deliberately lying, yet I vividly remember quite a few lies to (1) my wife, (2) a dying relative, (3) a motorcyclist that was just T-boned by a car running a red light, .... I can give more examples, but you get the idea.
- No, not about marital (in)fidelity - that's an entirely different topic. How about she returns from the hair-dresser, all excited and you just don't like the new hair-do? That special gift she picked out ..... The new dish she has cooked ..... Do I look fat? ....
- Will I see you one more time, will your brother be here before I pass, will I kick this one, ......
- My bike, my bike .... tell me my bike is fine
Tony may categorize me as a lying bastard from this point forward and that's fine with me. To me, though, it's sometimes better and more compassionate to lie than to be brutally honest because the truth is sometimes just that, brutal.
This exchange between Bidle and Tony is a classical example of the dangers of fora, social media and written communication in general where we communicate and engage in discussions with (relative) strangers and people we don't know well, not everyone writing in his or her native language and where we lack the visual and non-verbal elements of traditional (face-to-face) communication and conversation.
Okay, I'll put my flame-suit on and will go in to hiding ;-)
Don't bend; don't water it down; don't try to make it logical; don't edit your own soul according to the fashion. Rather, follow your most intense obsessions mercilessly.
― Franz Kafka
I don't care what "color" it is, a lie is still not the truth, and my sensibilities prefer a truthful answer to an untruthful one every time. That said, I don't think of you or Bidle as lying bastards. My comments had to do with the answers given, not the persons giving them. I can hardly call someone a "lying bastard" or anything similar on the basis of one anecdote.
I'm not a hermit who lives in cave. (Some of you D.C. folks may see a pun in that; I didn't intend it.) I know what "white lie" is for and why people utter them. As I said before, I think a vague or ambiguous answer is best if one (for whatever reason) doesn't want to deliver the unadulterated truth. As I said, I've told lies before. I know consequences of doing so:
- Sometimes there's no consequence in the present or foreseeable future.
- Sometimes the consequences range from negligible to major.
Take a "big deal" question and resulting lie from history (paraphrased):
- Press: Mr. President, did you have sex with M. Lewinsky?
- Clinton: No.
I know Mr. Clinton lied, yet I wouldn't deem him a "lying bastard." I know why he lied; that still doesn't make a truthful answer or a non-answer a worse choice in my view. Just as with Bidle or you, my "issue" isn't about the person but rather about the answer. Heck, I don't know who you are, so how could it be about you? You've heard me decry the act of making assumptions about people on the basis of the watch they wear rather than on the basis of knowing them and having solid evidence that they truly are "this way or that."
The discussion re: lying is, in my mind, quite the same. It's no more fair for me to judge you or Bidle, as individuals, as humans, on the basis of what you've shared here than it is for me or anyone to judge someone because they wear a Rolex or whatever sort of watch they wear. There's quite simply insufficient evidence to judge the person, but there's ample evidence to state what one thinks, what I think, of an action. In this discussion, it's the act of lying.
Sidebar:
Now to my view of things, the only person who had any right to ask that question was Hillary Clinton because she's the only person on the planet to whom he had promised he would "forsake all others." Now my view also says that Bill Clinton answered the question directly when he should have simply refused to answer. IMO, he should have said, "That is none of your business, and that's as much discussion as I'm going to have on this or any similar matter with you or anyone else except my wife."
As a lifelong D.C. resident, I strongly feel that public officials need to start setting some boundaries between what's expected of them in their professional capacity and what they are free to do as private individuals. Public people, elected or merely well known, are nonetheless deserving of a private life. If they break laws, well, that's one thing. If they are breaking promises to their spouses and kids, that's between them and the people personally involved.
End of sidebar.
I understand that folks don't want to enrage the person standing before them asking an inappropriate question. In such cases most anyone will provide an answer of some sort. I'm just saying that whatever answer is provided needs to be honest. I'm not even insisting that the answer given actually answer the question that was asked. Look at the variety of replies various folks offered:
- "You don't want to know."
- "More than it should have."
- "I treated myself to something nice" followed by an effort to move to a new topic without directly citing a figure.
- "I tell the truth."
- "Less than my speakers."
- "Don't be fooled by the rocks I got."
Those are some I found on the first two pages. I haven't read the entire thread. FWIW, I did notice that a few folks on the first two pages mentioned lying as the approach they'd take. I don't feel any differently about those lies than I do about "white lies" or Bidle's specifically quoted conversation. It's clear that Bidle isn't the only person who answered such a question with a lie. I guess that is what it is.
The thing that inspired the post was someone (I don't know who, but you can look to see if you want) mentioned liking Bidle's reply. I thought, "Well, if they can say they like that lie as a reply, I can certainly say I don't like it and that the reason I don't like it is because it's untrue." As I said before, I'm not going to say I like anything about a dishonest answer. It doesn't matter what reason one has for doing it. If I were to do it, I would also, almost certainly, come to wish I'd instead chosen a different answer.
I'm not saying I've never told a lie. I'm not saying I've never told a "white lie." I've also been told lies, "white" ones and others, and gotten over them. I'm only saying that as answers to questions go, I prefer honest ones and that I don't like the reverse. I haven't attempted to make this discussion personal. I don't want it to be that. My points have to do with the answer not the speaker.
All the best.
Never be afraid to raise your voice for honesty and truth and compassion against injustice and lying and greed. If people all over the world...would do this, it would change the earth.
― William Faulkner