WatchUSeek Watch Forums banner

2011 Laco Special Edition Project - CASE BACK and FINISH

39K views 149 replies 12 participants last post by  lukeaar 
#1 · (Edited)
This is as good a time as any to begin discussing the back of the project watch. Should it be a display or solid back? Should there be engraving, and if so, what should the engraving be?

At the same time we should plan which finish the watch and case back should have. The same as the standard finish on the Laco B-Uhr or something different?

Please feel free to post your ideas on these elements. It would also be great if anyone with drawing or design abilities could give us a hand with preliminary sketches; we had a couple of talented individuals at the start of this project submit some custom dial designs, but I'm not sure if they're still with us.
 
#2 ·
Sold case back is a no-brainer.

Non-decorated ETA movement gives us no reason to want to look at the internals.

As for finish, I've never seen a Laco in the flesh, so I'm not exactly sure how the finish looks, but from photos it seems it's a matte finish. Is this correct?

If so, I think the standard finish is appropriate.

As for case back engraving, I like the style of the standard engraving, but on the other hand....



So, I think we should combine the two like this:
  • Fl. 23883 engraved on the side of the case
  • On the back we should have, in standard Laco style:
    Beobachtungsuhr
    Bauart: [See note 1]
    Gerat-Nr. [See note 2]
    Werk-Bez. [ETA]
    Anforderz. [Fl. 238883]
    Hersteller: LACO

Note 1:
Not sure what to put for type. Maybe WUS-LE or something similar? I don't really have any creative ideas.

Note 2:
For device number, we could either go for X/50, or (I like this second idea better), use some other kind of model number and after the standard engraving have, in an italicised 'handwriting like' script, Nr. X of 50 (as can be seen in the W-SS watch photos, but with 'of 50' appended). Was there a model number or anything attached to the original watch?
 
#3 ·
I think these suggestions are on the whole spot on.
I have just one question: What does the Fl. 238883 on the side of the case mean? Does it refer to something that would make sense for this LE watch?
And I have one comment:I think putting WUS-LE or something similar is absolutely a great idea.
 
#4 ·
I find it strange that those observarion pieces had the same FL number as the 55mm B-uhren.
In the requirements the watch should be 55mm and have a certain dial design ( 2 different designs)
This observation watch was 65mm, a different dial.

In the litterature, are there pictures of more than one piece, and is the FL numbers visibl on more thanone?
 
#5 · (Edited)
The case seems to be brushed on that photo?

BTW: Solid caseback. We need pace for the engraving

I do not think we should have he same text in the square box as the 55mm B-uhren, not unless there is photographic proof those pieces had it. I do not see them having it, as only a very small handful were made. No serial production as such!

Is there not a reference these watches were used during the development of the Pennemunde programme?
 
#6 · (Edited)
This is a document of the B-uhren, Wempe manufacture/assembly:


A thought: The photo of the "W-SS" watch, do we know if it is a 65mm, or a rebuild (new dial) 55mm?
The best way (only way, in fact) to check that, is to take a movement photo of the 4 different B-uhrs (not Laco, it is not the D5 movement) and compare the movements, and the size proportion movement - case.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Reading thru Dr. Knirim's book:

  • In the opening part of the Waffen SS section, it was mentioned that -- though the watches were for SS use, they were designed for Luftwaffe operations. This maybe the reason for retaining the "Fl." designation (just my guess)
  • The photo posted by Luke above, was captioned as "...65mm silver case...". Also, initial watches were silver-cased, but there were also 22 items that were of nickeled brass case
  • The above is the only photo in the book that shows Fl. 23883 the engraving.
  • The next page however has another photo showing the back of another sample -- same inscription, this one though has "Nr. 3". The caption for this mentions "...markings of the case inside and on the edge are those of the Luftwaffe: device no. 127-560A and spec Fl. 23883...". So apparently there's more than one that has the Fl. marking.
  • One last case back photo simply shows "215653", and was captioned as a watch sent to the SS Artillery School (Glau).
BTW, I would go for the solid case back.

Cheers

EDIT: "Nr. 3"
 
#11 ·
Reading thru Dr. Knirim's book:

  • In the opening part of the Waffen SS section, it was mentioned that -- though the watches were for SS use, they were designed for Luftwaffe operations. This maybe the reason for retaining the "Fl." designation (just my guess


  • If the text is true, and the watches were designed for Luftwaffe, then they were 55mm B-uhrs, with a different dial.

    It does not make sense to have the same FL number on different items. That is not how the Armed Forces work. It would take me to long time to expain, but all Armies have the same system, which is very accurate and foolproof, in these matters.
 
#10 ·
I'm also in favour of a solid case back, mostly because it would give us a place to really stamp the exclusivity of this watch.

The typical B-Uhr engraving list that Lukeaar quoted actually appeared on the inside of the case back of originals. We've all become accustomed to it being on the outside where we can appreciate its historical reference. I think something similar would be a step in the right direction.

The silver-cased example was a special version. I personally don't think we should use it as a template for our design, especially since there are other examples available for reference.

The back of the standard issued watch artillery watch was engraved in the same way that the LW B-Uhrs were. They only had a number that matched the one engraved on the movement.

In my mind this means we have a blank canvas to work from and are free to do what we want.
 
#13 · (Edited)
The Gerat Nr reflects the movement number. Or am I wrong?
 
#15 ·
No, the "Werk-Nr." reflects the movement number.

"Gerät-Nr." is instrument number, which typically was either 127-560A1 or 127-560B. I used to think that the A and B might refer to the dial type, but then I came across Typ-B dials that were stamped with the 560A1.
 
#16 ·
Yes, I was wrong!


I know this is OT, but the 560A1, could they have been upgraded A-dials? Originaly A- dials, retrofitted with the B-dial?

If yo have a pic,the casenumber (and to some extent the movement number) would date it.

Nerd as I am, I find this piece of history very interesting!
 
#17 ·
the 560A1, could they have been upgraded A-dials? Originaly A- dials, retrofitted with the B-dial? Nerd as I am, I find this piece of history very interesting!
That's an interesting possibility. I'll have to look into that a little further. I could use the movement numbers to test your theory, assuming of course that they would have been produced in chronological order. The only immediate weakness I see in this is that the early A-Muster watches already were stamped with 560A. Would they have already known then that there would be a B-Muster to follow and that there would be the need to stamp the additional A after the 560?
 
#18 ·
Good thinking.
As far as I understand, the A dial was difficult to read in darkness and during the adverse conditions, so they devised the B-dial.
 
#19 ·
This is a great direction we are going in.
 
#20 ·
That was just an OT discussion.

I think the caseback depends on which dial/watch we will have as an example.
 
#21 ·
Something interesting I just found:

The watches were given an FL. number which stands for flight and the first two digits, 22, for flight control: 23 stands for navigation and 25 for radio surveillance, followed by the three digits serial number given by the institute.
another:

Re "Fl 23883":

For all practical purposes, it is what would today be a military specification, describing function and general design, but not specific to one manufacturer. Hence all 5 B-Uhren types have the sam Fl no.

In the German adminsitrative jargon, it is an "Anforderzeichen" in the Air Ministry's (Reichsluftfahrtministerium) "Gruppenübersicht der Flugzeugausrüstungsgeräte und Anforderzeichen".
 
#37 · (Edited)
Just a sample case back I was fooling around with:

Not bad!

Instead of the plain ETA - ETA SA

01/50

There must be a way to distinguish the modified movement. Maybe 2824.2 G? (Geschlachtet) ;-)

I would prefer that the German language onlywas used on the caseback, not a mix..

Sonderausgabe instead of Special Edition

What was the research center called where the V rockets were developed? It would be cool to have some connection there.

Pennemunde range? Artillery range?
 
#28 ·
Agree.

I like all, except the WUS- SA.
I like particullary WUS-SE and WUS-S

WUS-SE = WUS Spezial Edition (German spelling OK? No?)

We already did a WUS Limited Edition. In 2008.
 
#26 ·
Some forumers might think the WUS-SA is too close to history.
I feel that the dial should be marked.
 
#27 ·
I realize this is off topic, as we have yet to get into the details of the dial, but while I am typically partial to sterile dials for this sort of watch, it does make some sense, given the heritage, to have something on the dial. Maybe a WUS-LE and nothing more? That would take the watch away from its heritage without being intrusive.
 
#31 ·
Sounds good to me.

The B-uhr cases were Nickel plated, not painted. Maybe an amateurish restorer painted a severely oxydised/damaged case?

The surface treatment Laco does (particel blasting) is amost a 100% true visual copy of the original finish

I think I would prefer the case side to be without the FL number. On the back is enough!
 
#32 ·
The B-uhr cases were Nickel plated, not painted.
You're right, I shouldn't have used the word painted, especially since I knew that wasn't the case (no pun intended). I've copied and pasted the description of the watch by its original manufacturer from my post in the CASE discussion thread:

A. Lange & Söhne details the construction of the M-B B-Uhr for a 1943 production run of 22 watches :

"Beobachtungsuhren, Werk Kal. 48 mm, Gehäuse als Fliegerarmbanduhr gearbeitet, aus Messing hergestellt und grau mattiert, mit Lederriemen, genäht und doppelt genietet, Uhr mit heraussiebarer Krone un Anhaltsvorrichtung, Werk durch Lederring in der Gehäuseführung gasdicht abgeschlossen, mit Spezialzifferblatt vie von der WaffenßSS vorgeschrieben, anstelle der Zahlen III und IV verlängerte Teilungsgestriche 15 und 45, mit Leuchtziffern und zeigern, Sekunde springend, Sekunderzeiger am rückwärtigen Ende mit leuchtenem Strich versehen."

my translation:

"Observation watches, movement caliber 48 mm, case built as an aviator's wrist watch, made of brass with a matte grey finish, with leather strap - stitched and double riveted, watch with pullable crown and hacking device, movement gas sealed by a leather ring in the housing, special dial as specified by the Waffen SS, instead of the numbers III and IV and extended partition using 15 and 45, with luminous numerals and hands, second jump?, second hand with luminous bar at its back."

And from an auction description of the watch:

"Geh.: Metall, grau mattiert, Druckboden."

my translation:

"Case: metal, matte grey, compression fit case back"

Knirim clairfies the matte grey description in his book as being nickled brass.

Since our watch will neither be made of brass or have a nickeled finish, it's important to focus on the visual description of it being a matte grey. It's a description that you could easily apply to the current Laco B-Uhr case.
 
#33 ·
Absolutely. The visual is as close as you can get. In the unworn areas on my -44 watch, it looks virtually the same.
 
#35 ·
What sort of timeline are we working with before the next vote? I'd be able to draft a rough case model to evaluate the finishing, etc. but I expect it to take longer than those preliminary dial offerings.

For this piece, I too am in favour of the solid caseback and matte finishing. I look forward to lots of great conversation about the engraving options.
 
#36 ·
The D5 is made by a Lacher owned company (Durowe), so I think we can say it is in-house...
 
#39 ·
The D5 is made by a Lacher owned company (Durowe), so I think we can say it is in-house...
The original M-B B-Uhr didn't use the D5; it had a Lange & Soehne Cal. 48.1 movement. Also, I believe the Durowe name is now currently owned by Stowa. I had thought to use Lacher only to create a "what if" label. What if Lacher (Laco) had also been contracted to build the M-B, what would the label have looked like? So my idea was to try and make the engraving look like it would have had that actually happened.

There must be a way to distinguish the modified movement. Maybe 2824.2 G? (Geschlachtet).
That's an interesting and good point. It really isn't an ETA 2824.2 once it has been modified, so I agree that the movement description should reflect this. I can just imagine someone buying a used one many years from now and thinking it was broken because it wasn't beginning to run after being shaken back and forth!

I would prefer that the German language onlywas used on the caseback, not a mix.. Sonderausgabe instead of Special Edition.
It doesn't matter to me either way, but I appreciate the concern for consistency. I'd like to see what others think about this.

What was the research center called where the V rockets were developed? It would be cool to have some connection there. Pennemunde (SP) range?
Yes, development was conducted at Peenemünde - among other places - and I had thought about an engraving of a rocket or referencing W. v. Braun. However, I've recently read somewhere that there isn't any documented evidence that these watches were actually used there. Knirim's book mentions the rocket program in the introduction of the W-SS section but makes no mention of the M-B B-Uhr being used for timing rocket flights. In Knirim's own words "where it was used has still not been identified even though I spent much time researching in a lot of German archives. Maybe this information was confiscated by the allies at the end of the war."

Despite this, others who have produced versions of this watch are quick to claim the watch's lineage is related to von Braun and Peenemünde. It makes a nice story, but given that this is such a gray area I'd be inclined to omit any reference to the rocket program. The original watch was produced as a tool; we will do well to create that sentiment without getting mired in the speculation of how and where it was used.
 
#41 ·
Agree with all-German text on the caseback, as well maintaining the matte finish on case. Also on having a special ETA designation -- makes it look unique and interesting.

If the historical tie-up with Peenemünde is vague -- why not along the lines of artillery observation, if this was the original intent? or the artillery school where some of the watches were delivered to...

One thing comes to mind: Was this also called a Sextant Watch? I recall reading some text designating it as such.

Stumbled on some more case pictures on the net. Nr 215682 -- said to have been sent to the artillery school in Glau. No FL engraving on the side, and it seems the W-SS inscription was erased from the dial. Man, this goes for 15-20KEuros :-x

From the site Auktionen Dr. H. Crott - Spezialauktionshaus für hochwertige Uhren:



 
#43 ·
If the historical tie-up with Peenemünde is vague -- why not along the lines of artillery observation, if this was the original intent? or the artillery school where some of the watches were delivered to...
In my design I had as part of the engraving "Beobachtungsuhr fur Messbatterie", which means "observation watch for measurement battery" (battery of course relating to an artillery battery). It's the long form of the M-B acronym that appears on the dial and explains the purpose of the watch. The Glau connection is referenced in Knirim's book but it only pertains to one shipment of M-B watches, so again, I'd be very hesitant to engrave Glau anywhere on our watch.

One thing comes to mind: Was this also called a Sextant Watch? I recall reading some text designating it as such.
Good question. I suppose it's because any observation watch - including the 55 mm B-Uhr - had to be used with a sextant as part of its navigational purpose. It would make more sense to call the LW B-Uhr a sextant watch than the M-B, which it would seem was used more as a timer. Hand sextants use mirrors and I've seen them used with a watch strapped to them, so perhaps someone saw the reversed numbers on the M-B dial and assumed it was for use with a sextant. Other than sales rhetoric for other manufacturer's watches, I've never seen the term sextant watch used with the M-B.
 
#42 ·
Agree with all of you. Messe-Baterie, Glau etc is better linking than Peenemuende (I know, Pennemunde is in Italy :-d)

That piece has certainly been butchered. W-SS scraped off, crown not correct. But, wotrh every Cent.
 
#44 ·
Name Calling

Something else just came to mind. Other projects often end up giving the project and watch a name. Is this something we would like to do? For example, I recently participated in a Steinhart project watch that was called the Proteus.

I kind of like the idea of a name - mostly because Laco-WUS Special Limited Edition doesn't exactly sound very sexy...
 
#45 ·
Re: Name Calling

Sysifos?

Unless we call it WUA-Laco SonderAusfuhrung
 
#48 ·
OK, I'll bite. What is that supposed to mean? I was thinking of a name that would be a little more fun, like Big Bertha!

About the use: I have a little bit experience of directing Artillery fire and I just can not find a use for this watch, taking pictures through a scope and needing an exact time reference. I have been racking my memory the few old text books I have left, searching the internet. Nothing.
There are two elements of this watch that I think are key in determining its use. One is the reversed numbers for photographic use and the other is its sub-second indicies. If you use or train with production artillery pieces, you will already know the properties of the weapon and its ammunition and be able to put rounds on target based on established firing data. However, if an artillery piece or ammunition type is a prototype or in its experimental phase, someone will have to test fire it and measure the results to determine all the variables so that someone in the field will someday be able to hit a distant target. You would think that a stopwatch and rangefinder would be best suited to this type of work; stopwatches were in fact produced for artillery use, conceivably for that purpose.

However, what if you also wanted to film and record test activity as part of the research process? It would be easy to take a small leap and how the M-B B-Uhr could well have been used for such a purpose - or even for recording things such as the burn time of a rocket during test firings at Peenemünde. The fact that no records of its use have been found certainly suggests that it was used for something that was highly classified - like a rocket or jet engine development program.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top