2011 Laco Special Edition Project - PROJECT THEME

[nothenorm]

I would prefer in the order:-

1.) B-UHR (Please not the A or B dials anymore... really too uncool and wasted for a Durowe movement.) - I do quite like Janne's contribution on the some of the pics.
2) Civilian
3.) Marine

Uwe, please kindly advise if the movement will be decorated or just plain.... a bit wasted not to go to the fullest, like the WUS B project not to have Blued hands. Just my opinion.

If decorated, surely a display case is a plus!

Secondly, I feel that we should really modify the confirm dial deisgn (if we have reference) to have a true uniqueness.

And lastly, a 100% real blued hands without lume as well as for the dial.

But of course we should be flexible and compromising! Cheers.

[Piccolo8]

Hi,

Just for general discussion, I am posting some photos.

40mm case (Photo from Deutsche Post Online Shop)


I wonder if Laco' Lacher line cases are also available for this project.


35mm case (Photos form Unknown Internet Seller)



In my opinion, this size of movements(25.6mm) are best looking in the 35mm case(or smaller).


Best regards,

Piccolo8

[Rev Fred]

I am in agreement with Uwe about the theme centering on an historical person or a particular ship or plane. German history is repleat with suitable examples, and we have had several mentioned already. Perhaps if agreement could be reached that we like the idea of this kind of historical commemoration theme, a poll could be set up to vote on the suggestions made so far.

Re Hannah Reisch, I did not mean to criticise her in my earlier post, and I too am a great admirer of her aeronautical exploits. However, she was very close to ......, and after the war expressed considerable regret at having not been able to commit suicide alongside him in the Bunker, which she was ordered to leave at the last minute. She also made some dubious comments about German shame over the National Socialist period being because German lost the war, not because of the holocaust. Anyhow, this is not the place to discuss this topic!

Suffice to say that I still think Galland is a somewhat different proposition, but I admit that perhaps WW2 figures with political connections should be left out of this project for fear of offending anyone.

If we are going to go down the route of a torpedo timer, how about celebrating a particular U-Boat. How about U156, the boat which sank the Laconia and then rescued a load of the survivors. A uniquly humanitarian exploit by its captain Hartenstein, which deserves to be celebrated.

The Laco U-156, or the Laco Hartenstein SE would be good.

Re the torpedo timer dial, I am not sure about the colours, I don't like them. They remind me too much of the Christopher Ward RAF Sector watches.

Also - can someone please explain to me the purpose of the mirrored minute numerals in the SS watch dial.

[spen]

I always feel that we should have something totally different from what Laco already have. The flight compass look very very interesting. Very different. Thanks

[Janne]

That W-SS watch was an Artillery tool.
The watch was meant to be placed in some kind of sightning device, so it could be read as a reflection.

That is the explanation I read some years ago.

Off Topic History lesson:
Yes, the vast numbers of SS soldiers were in fact ordinary (but elite) military guys, not the murderers they are remembered as today. That branch of SS was called Waffen SS (Weapon SS). In battle they were placed under the command of the normal Armed Forces leadership.

The murderes were a very, very small group. THey belonged to so called Einzats gruppen SS, which were a separate, paramilitary part of the SS organisation, under own command. They did not do any military work, or receive much military training. They were selected and indoctrinated, to be brutal, brainless murderes.

If you were a Frenchman, Swede, Czech, Estonian, Latvian, Bielorussian or any other nationalites (incl some British and US!), you could only enroll in the SS if you wanted to fight with the Germans against the Soviet Communists. More than half (60-70%) of the soldiers of W-SS were foreigners.
Only from Sweden, there were a couple of thousand volunteers.
Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe etc were only for Germans or men with proven German ancestry

SS had infantery, some aircraft, artillery, tanks, grenadier, paraschute units, hospitals, transport units etc. They were trained to an Elite standard, and sometimes used as "disposable" units on the worst sectors.

if a W-SS soldier was taken as a POW, they were treated as normal soldiers. After the war, the surviving Swedish members were seen by most people (non communists) as good guys, heroes, for themfighting the Soviets.
Many Swedes joined the Finnish Army, to fight the Soviets in the Finnish - Soviet wars.
If a member of the Einsats gruppen was cought, well, he received a bullet, if he was lucky.

I am just trying to explain some facts, that more or less are forgotten, and explain why I have nothing against the W-SS insignia.

[Manolete]

Off Topic History lesson:
Yes, the vast numbers of SS soldiers were in fact ordinary (but elite) military guys, not the murderers they are remembered as today. That branch of SS was called Waffen SS (Weapon SS). In battle they were placed under the command of the normal Armed Forces leadership.

The murderes were a very, very small group. THey belonged to so called Einzats gruppen SS, which were a separate, paramilitary part of the SS organisation, under own command. They did not do any military work, or receive much military training. They were selected and indoctrinated, to be brutal, brainless murderes.

If you were a Frenchman, Swede, Czech, Estonian, Latvian, Bielorussian or any other nationalites (incl some British and US!), you could only enroll in the SS if you wanted to fight with the Germans against the Soviet Communists. More than half (60-70%) of the soldiers of W-SS were foreigners.
Only from Sweden, there were a couple of thousand volunteers.
Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe etc were only for Germans or men with proven German ancestry

I am just trying to explain some facts, that more or less are forgotten, and explain why I have nothing against the W-SS insignia.

There are many ways of looking at History, but what you have written here is simply not correct. At the Nuremburg War Crimes trials the SS was determined to be, as a whole, a criminal organization. First of all, the Allgemeine SS was responsible for carrying out the Final Solution against the Jews and this was not confined to Einzatsgruppen, but included the administration of the Concentration Camp system, which included an estimated 15,000, yes that is correct, 15,000 camps. The staffing of this branch of the SS, the one responsible for the Holocaust was many tens of thousands of people. Not a small group. As for the Waffen SS, it is true that this was the military branch of the SS, but it too was responsible for awful war crimes. To begin with, there was a great deal of movement between the Waffen and Allgemeine SS. And then there are the atrocities performed by the Waffen SS itself with no help from others. Let me call your attention to just a few of the Waffen SS's greatest hits.

The Wormhoudt massacre of 1940, in which British POWs were rounded up into a building and murdered by hand grenades.
The Oradour-sur-Glane Massacre of 1944 in which a French village every man, woman and child was slaughtered.
The Ochota Massacre of 1944 in which an entire section of Warsaw was overrun and 10,000 civilians were murdered in a frenzy if raping and pillaging. (This one with the help of many of the non-German SS units you mention.)

I'm going to stop here, but I think it would be best not to hear any more defenses of the SS.

[Janne]

In every research of history, it is important to be objective.
artrocities were done by both sides, every Army. When a group of mentally exhausted soldiers are cornered, they do what they never would have done under "normal" circumstanses.

I am going to stop here, as I do not want to start fighting anmd arguing about a (sad) time in the History of the world.
Tonight, I will send you a PM and explain a little bit more, with some info I gained from "the horses mouth".

Nuremberg trials? The normal SS soldiers were (after the war) after another trial "reinstated" (lack proper English word.

As said, I will send you later a PM. But you have to be open minded and neutral in your thinking. OK?

If anybody else wat the same PM's, I will cc you.

Just to note, I have been a student of European history with extra deep studies of the period 1900-1945 for almost 40 years.

[Uwe W.]

Dear Uwe: This is for you. I'd love to hear your comments on this idea of Janne's, which I and at least one other poster here think is excellent. Let us know!

I'm certainly not opposed to the idea - in fact, I own a Steinhart Marine Timer, which was modeled after a torpedo timer. However, I don't think this idea will work for this project. Along those lines I would rather use a deck watch, ship's chronometer or Laco's own navy watches as a guide. Unfortunately those designs mostly use sub-second dials, which the Durowe movement doesn't have.

The torpedo timer seems like too much of a stretch. But it's not up to me to decide! This is a democratic project; everyone will have an opportunity to pitch their ideas and vote on the collected suggestions. I will collect each design element idea discussed during each phase of this project - or at least the ones that have been seconded - and put them on a ballot for voting.

Uwe, please kindly advise if the movement will be decorated or just plain.... a bit wasted not to go to the fullest, like the WUS B project not to have Blued hands. Just my opinion.

I should be receiving actual photos of the movement any day now. I'm fairly certain though that they're not decorated as they are NOS items. I appreciate your desire to have something nice under the glass, but I think the effort of decorating the movement after the fact would put the cost of this project well out of reach of the majority of participants. We will be designing the hands, so certainly bluing will be an option we could explore.

I am in agreement with Uwe about the theme centering on an historical person or a particular ship or plane. German history is repleat with suitable examples, and we have had several mentioned already. Perhaps if agreement could be reached that we like the idea of this kind of historical commemoration theme, a poll could be set up to vote on the suggestions made so far.If we are going to go down the route of a torpedo timer, how about celebrating a particular U-Boat. How about U156, the boat which sank the Laconia and then rescued a load of the survivors. A uniquly humanitarian exploit by its captain Hartenstein, which deserves to be celebrated.

As I mentioned above, I'll go through everything suggested in this thread that drew interest and include it in a poll for voting. I have wanted to put together a commemorative U-boat watch for years, but wanted to really do it right by reproducing an actual issue watch. The lack of a sub-second complication is a deal breaker for me though. Still, there are many other possibilities.

Also - can someone please explain to me the purpose of the mirrored minute numerals in the SS watch dial.

Janne's mirror explanation is one reason. However, I've more frequently read that reversing numbers was for photographic purposes so that the time could be read regardless of the orientation of the negative.

if a W-SS soldier was taken as a POW, they were treated as normal soldiers. I am just trying to explain some facts, that more or less are forgotten, and explain why I have nothing against the W-SS insignia.

Not all were treated "normally". And certainly not those on the Eastern Front. You're fighting a lost cause here Janne and although the history tomes currently being written would support your claims, we need to keep this discussion centered on the special project watch. WUS is not a political forum gentlemen, so please, no more discussion regarding the SS!

Feel free to continue your debate through the PM system if you wish.

[Janne]

Will do!

The problem with the submarine timers is to translate the very complex design to a hour/minute dial.
What I like is the colours.....

Just to add, is it not weird that we do not know the exact use of an instrumentonly after only 60+ years??

[Myron]

We should come up with a theme first as it might dictate the case size. For example, a larger case for a B-Uhr would be more appropriate, just like a smaller case for a Navy would be more suiting.


Perhaps a series of smaller steps to decide on a theme?

1. Military or Civilian design?
2. If Military, should it be based on an airforce or navy design?
3. If Civilian, which era? Dressy or sport?

I think I may be going against the grain here, but I cast my vote for a military design of navy influence. The flieger thing has been done to death. I own a bunch (and have a couple more on my "list"), but interesting naval observation watches are fewer and further between. Just my 2 cents.

Myron