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OLD THREAD - Design Thread 3: The Movement

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#1 · (Edited)
Design Thread 3: The Movement

The purpose of this design thread is to discuss the movement that will be used for the Project THOR Limited Edition watch we are creating.

The movement is, without question, a cornerstone design element; it will, by virtue of its features, have a profound impact on the design process and ultimately in part determine the course of the project.

Despite the limits of our budget, Steinhart has come up with an impressive variety of movements - TWELVE in total - for us to choose from. Most exciting - and as was the case with the Proteus Project - Steinhart is providing us with a unique opportunity to use components that are new to the brand: Two Soprod movements are included in the list that haven't yet been used in a production Steinhart timepiece.

If you had a particular movement in mind, and it isn't on the list, then it isn't available - period. Please don't spin your wheels (and waste everyone's time) by making a plea for a movement that isn't an option.

Finally, we should preemptively address the inevitable question of availability. It's next to impossible to predict what the availability of each of these movements will be when the time comes for our watch to begin production. However, Steinhart has assured us that as of today, with the exception a few noted below, none of these movements should represent a challenge to obtain when the time comes.

The List of Movements available to Project THOR:

Steinhart ST.1 Premium
Handwinding movement with three hands (hours, minutes, and a sub-second dial).

ETA 6497 Soigné
Handwinding movement with three hands (hours, minutes, and a sub-second dial at 9 o'clock).

ETA 6498 Soigné
Handwinding movement with three hands (hours, minutes, and a sub-second dial at 6 o'clock).

ETA 2824-2 Elaboré
Automatic movement with date, and three hands (hours, minutes, and a central second hand).

ETA 2893-2 Elaboré (questionable availability)
Automatic GMT movement with date and four hands (hours, minutes, central second, and a central 24 hour hand).

ETA 7750 Elaboré (base quality)
Automatic chronograph movement with day, date, and six hands (hours, minutes, sub-second and three chronograph hands: central seconds, and sub 30 minute and sub 12 hour counters).

ETA 7750 TOP (mid-quality, questionable availability)
Automatic chronograph movement with day, date, and six hands (hours, minutes, sub-second and three chronograph hands: central seconds, and sub 30 minute and sub 12 hour counters).

Soprod SOP A10-2
Automatic movement with date, and three hands (hours, minutes, and a central second hand).

Soprod SOP A10-2 24H
Automatic GMT movement with date and four hands (hours, minutes, central second, and a central 24 hour hand).

Soprod SOP 9335/A10-2 (questionable availability)
Automatic GMT movement with magnified date, power reserve indicator, and four hands (hours, minutes, central second, and a sub 24 hour hand).

Dubois Dépraz DD 2020 (based on ETA 2824-2)
Automatic chronograph movement with six hands (hours, minutes, sub-second and three chronograph hands: central seconds counter, and sub 30 minute and sub 12 hour counters).

Dubois Dépraz DD 2030 (based on ETA 2824-2)
Automatic chronograph movement with five hands (hours, minutes, sub-second and two chronograph hands: central seconds and a sub 30 minute counter).

Given the importance of this design element, and the sheer number of options available to us, we expect this thread will run longer than normal before it reaches the voting stage. Consider this fair warning for those who are impatient and want to just vote their way through the entire project. ;-)

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AMENDMENT 1:
In order to simplify the movement decision process we are going to break the voting for it into two parts. The first vote will be to decide which TYPE of movement we'll be using, either a three-hand, GMT, or chronograph, and the second vote will be to decide which of the movements from the winning category will actually be used. This discussion thread will be used to cover both votes and this post will be updated with the results of the first vote, which will start in four or five days time. Hopefully this will make this step of the design process less daunting.

AMENDMENT 2:
The following list ranks the movements in terms of their cost. Further details concerning the ramifications of their costs can be found in post 251 of this thread.
• ETA 2824-2 Elaboré
• ETA 2893-2 Elaboré
• ETA 6497 and 6498 Soigné (same price)
• SOP A10-2
• ETA 7750 Elaboré and Dubois Dépraz DD 2030 (same price)
• Dubois Dépraz DD 2020
• SOP A10-2 24h
• ST.1 Premium
• ETA 7750 TOP
• SOP 9335/A10-2
 
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1
#2 ·
Re: Design Thread 3: The Movement

Now we get to really start having fun. I think it is notable that 3 general groupings can be made - 3 hand, chrongraph, or GMT. Also there is the day/date, or not question. All of the chronograqphs and GMTs are automatic, and all of the hand winds are 3 hand. And, it is nice to see that where there is questionable availability, there is a "Plan B" or back-up option if we can't get exactly what we want.

It's like worrying about Christmas all over again.

Best regards,

Dave
 
#5 · (Edited)
Re: Design Thread 3: The Movement

Perhaps a noob Q but will there be an opportunity to discuss decoration / aesthetics of the various movements should a display back be on the cards? Or are the movements going to be 'as is'. I know steinhart have 'decorated' movements before but unsure to what extent over original spec? Striping, blued screws, rotors etc?
 
#7 ·
Re: Design Thread 3: The Movement

In this early stage of the project, I would lean towards a chrono, too. However, before providing any meaningful input, I need to do my homework and learn a bit more about the different movements suggested as options.
I'm eager to read the discussions this topic will definitely create.
 
#8 ·
Re: Design Thread 3: The Movement

Ok! Gut reaction taking this at face value is, in a word, WOW! My first instinct is to go Valjoux 7750 TOP, as I have been leaning towards a chrono since the beginning. However there are some movements here I know nothing about so I have some research to do.
 
#9 ·
Re: Design Thread 3: The Movement

My initial inclination is toward a GMT, but I would be happy with a chrono as well. I also think that, although to me this is a secondary concern, having a more unique movement, perhaps even one that Steinhart has not used before, would be a big plus. However, like others, I have a lot of research to do on the different choices available .

Huge kudos to Herr Steinhart et al. for providing us with such a powerful and wide range of movement options, particularly in light of the recent appreciation in the franc!
 
#10 ·
Re: Design Thread 3: The Movement

Very excited to do the research on the movements. Although personally I have found the watches I've had which have the valjoux 7750 to be quite thick. Not sure if it's the movement or the actual case design.

Will google and share my findings.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Design Thread 3: The Movement

The GMT Soprod and the power reserve etc Soprod seem most interesting to me. The first one in a technical sporty design and the 2nd one in a complicated dress watch.

Edit: I now find that the 9335 has a button for the 24h dial, meaning if I am correct that it can be used as a true GMT watch, it is not just a simple 24h indicator. This makes it really an interesting, off the beaten track choice:
http://www.soprod.ch/index_htm_files/Brochure_SOP_9335-A10-2.pdf

7750 has never really interested me. It makes watches too thick.
 
#12 ·
Re: Design Thread 3: The Movement

I agree, based on the price range, it is tempting to get a chrono. What will be sacrificed by having a more expensive movement?

Anyway, I google-ed a bit about the movements and currently the DD movement. Is it true that
- the DD movement is thinner than 7750? If it's so, we may have more space for the dial.
- the DD movement has different layout than 7750? If it's so, then it will certainly make it a bit more special since it will not be as the same as the common watch using 7750
- it has more jewels :)
 
#14 ·
Re: Design Thread 3: The Movement

So the 9335 has a Big Date? I think a Big Date GMT would be awesome.
 
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#17 · (Edited)
Design Thread 3: The Movement

So the 9335 has a Big Date? I think a Big Date GMT would be awesome.
In this thread there are pictures of a watch with the 9335:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/new-schofield-watch-company-610337.html#/forumsite/20758/topics/610337

Quite cool. It has a button on the caseback to set the 24h dial.
The big date is puzzling though as the thread shows a picture of a big date movement but the watch and my pdf above have a normal date.
Still an interesting set of complications that can make a special dial possible. In my opinion more interesting than a 7750 which you see on every other wrist.

Edit: based on:
http://www.soprod.ch/EN/SOP A10-2 Complications.htm
I think that Uwe made a little error in his original post. It looks like this 9335 variant does not offer a big date, hence the linked Signalman watch gives a good idea of what we can do.
 
#15 ·
Re: Design Thread 3: The Movement

Are there options for modified 7750 or 7753, or is that out of budget? I want a chrono, but like 3, 6, 9 much better than 12, 6, 9.

The 7750 is a workhorse. Its a reliable movement that has many uses, yet leaves us some availability to customize the dial without breaking the budget (different color subdials, hands, etc). The DD modules are also great, but slightly different movements. It is a separate module that is placed on top of a 2824 or 2892 movement. What it provides is 3, 6, 9 chronograph layout with seconds at 3, which is fairly unique.

I would love either one just because we could truly build a unique watch around it with simply different hands, dial, and pushers. A three hand would limit us as we would have to have a very exotic dial to be truly unique.
 
#18 ·
Re: Design Thread 3: The Movement

For retail price, It will be ETA 2893 < SOPROD 9335 < DD 2020 < ETA 77590 right? Then, putting cheaper movement may give more rooms for other improvement.
Anyone has the estimated price?

If I Google right, the gmt will be about 350, the chronograph will be about 400(DD) and 450(750), right?
 
#19 ·
Re: Design Thread 3: The Movement

For retail price, It will be ETA 2893 < SOPROD 9335 < DD 2020 < ETA 77590 right? Then, putting cheaper movement may give more rooms for other improvement.
Anyone has the estimated price?

If I Google right, the gmt will be about 350, the chronograph will be about 400(DD) and 450(750), right?
You won't find what Steinhart pays or charges you for the movement with a Google search.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Re: Design Thread 3: The Movement

Design Thread 3: The Movement

Soprod SOP A10-2
Automatic movement with date, and three hands (hours, minutes, and a central second hand).

Soprod SOP A10-2 24H
Automatic GMT movement with date and four hands (hours, minutes, central second, and a central 24 hour hand).

Soprod SOP 9335/A10-2 (questionable availability)
Automatic GMT movement with magnified date, power reserve indicator, and four hands (hours, minutes, central second, and a sub 24 hour hand).
So i did some googling, and found that Soprod offers the A10-2 movemebt with several options, and what Uwe has quoted as the Soprod SOP 9335/ A10-2 is entirely possible as one of the options they offer.

Per their website, the following additional modules can be added to the base A10-2:
Big date
2nd GMT with day/night indicator
Power reserve and 2nd GMT
Small Second module
Chronograph Dubois Dépraz
24 hours indicator on central hand
Moon phases with small second
Power reserve with big date

source:
http://www.soprod.ch/EN/Mecanique.htm

i believe Hautlence uses the A10-2 in their Designation 02 model (but they have the am/pm indicator too):
Watch Analog watch Fashion accessory Watch accessory


Watch Analog watch Watch accessory Fashion accessory Silver


im not sold on the square case, but i see heaps of potential with the layout!

I think this might just get my vote.... i dont know much about movements, but a big date GMT with quick set date and power reserve is definitely something i dont have in my collection yet.
We could go down the dressier route, or something quite casual like the schofield watch previously mentioned.
 
#24 ·
Re: Design Thread 3: The Movement

It looks like the Hautlence uses variant 9351, as per:

http://www.soprod.ch/EN/SOP A10-2 Complications.htm

It does have a big date but it does not have a power reserve like the 9335.
These variants are all modules on the base A-10 and it looks to me that not all additions are necessarily possible at the same time, hence the 9335 which offers one particular set of additions would be base for a watch with the Scofield layout, without big date.
It would in any case be an interesting choice for a rather special watch.
 
#26 ·
Re: Design Thread 3: The Movement

Not doing it for me, personally. Its an expensive movement and I feel we'd need a unique dial and case to make it different. I have a GMT now and don't use that function.

A nice chrono, on the other hand, could be unique just by the color selection and dial design. I feel like by simply changing the height of the subdials with longer hands, you could get a dial with a lot of depth. Its the only thing I like about that Scofield.
 
#27 ·
Re: Design Thread 3: The Movement

Oh man! My head exploded with this lot! Here we go then. Chrono is pretty much out, I never use the function so they need to be really pretty and not many are pretty enough. I like the idea of a GMT as I don't have one. Unique movement appeals but, call me shallow, I'd rather spend the money on making it look special as that is what will make me smile when I'm gazing at it instead of paying attention in meetings. I like the idea of a hand-wind but not too keen on sub dial locations. So in summary...not a clue!
 
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#28 · (Edited)
Re: Design Thread 3: The Movement

ETA 2893-2 Elaboré GMT would be my first choice, a chrono second (ETA) and very cold to hand winding watches.

I do want a date function but not set on it. Either super simple, or GMT. Chronos are nice and all but it is mostly for looks. GMT > DATE > Chrono > Price -- in that order.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Re: Design Thread 3: The Movement

If you had a particular movement in mind, and it isn't on the list, then it isn't available - period. Please don't spin your wheels (and waste everyone's time) by making a plea for a movement that isn't an option.

ETA 6498 Soigné
Handwinding movement with three hands (hours, minutes, and a sub-second dial at 6 o'clock).

Soprod SOP 9335/A10-2 (questionable availability)
Automatic GMT movement with magnified date, power reserve indicator, and four hands (hours, minutes, central second, and a sub 24 hour hand).

Dubois Dépraz DD 2020 (based on ETA 2824-2)
Automatic chronograph movement with six hands (hours, minutes, sub-second and three chronograph hands: central seconds counter, and sub 30 minute and sub 12 hour counters).
It says no other movements are possible, what about changes/comlications to movements on the list? Is it possible to turn the 6498 into a Regulator? That is a complication I don't believe Steinhart has used before that I would be very interested in, not sure if it is possible though.

I am very interested in the Soprod 9335. I only have 1 GMT with the standard ETA so this really intrigues me!

I also think the DD 2020 could be interesting. I don't have any chrono's, mostly because I doubt I would use much of the function, so I need to do more research on the chrono options.

I would also be interested in the ST.1 for a basic hand wind watch.

What a list of choices, I definitely have more research to do!
 
#50 ·
Re: Now the term regulator comes up!

It says no other movements are possible, what about changes/comlications to movements on the list? Is it possible to turn the 6498 into a Regulator?
I highly doubt it. Modifying a movement to such a degree can end up doubling its cost. However, I've started a list of such questions and will get them answered in due time.

Using a more expensive movement will mean that we cannot go for a massive and unique dial, bezel etc.... i would guess using a 7750 Top would mean we have to focus on more standard parts out of the bin.
Why would you make such statements? They are misleading and will only confuse things for some of those here who don't know better. The scope of this project encompasses a unique dial and bezel, and at NO time did we ever mentioned that 'parts bin' choices would have to be made. Can you point to a Steinhart project watch in the past that simply used a dial from watch A combined with hands from watch B, and a bezel from watch C?
 
#31 ·
Re: Design Thread 3: The Movement

I have little interest in another chrono to be honest, but i am a sucker for a handwind sub second so the ST-1 or one of the ETA's be cool for me.
ETA's will leave more in the budget to throw at the rest of the piece i guess, so may give us many more options for design to create something cool.
I may be wrong, probably am lol, but think there's only so much you can do with a chrono dial

Chris
 
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#32 ·
Now the term regulator comes up!

What may be possible in regulator configurations with these movements? That would certainly make Thor stand out.

Most chronos are thicker than 3 or 4 hand watches - it is a complication module after all. Also, for those who do not currently have chronographs, many watch enthusiasts feel running the chrono function continuously can cause the watch movement to wear faster and will also shorten the power reserve. Thus they usually have the small second hand moving in a subdial rather than center seconds running all the time.

I would be interested in whether the moderators have an opinion on this subject.

I personally enjoy a well-done big date, but find I have little use for power reserve.

Best regards,

Dave
 
#38 ·
Re: Now the term regulator comes up!

What may be possible in regulator configurations with these movements? That would certainly make Thor stand out.

Most chronos are thicker than 3 or 4 hand watches - it is a complication module after all. Also, for those who do not currently have chronographs, many watch enthusiasts feel running the chrono function continuously can cause the watch movement to wear faster and will also shorten the power reserve. Thus they usually have the small second hand moving in a subdial rather than center seconds running all the time.

I would be interested in whether the moderators have an opinion on this subject.

I personally enjoy a well-done big date, but find I have little use for power reserve.

Best regards,

Dave
A regulator would be pretty darn cool too.

Glad to see another vote for a big date gmt!
 
#33 ·
Re: Now the term regulator comes up!

Well well well... When I was thinking about starting this project, I knew I definitely wanted some new chrono Steinie... And as much as I have little to no influence on the outcome, except my vote, I was hoping it would end up that way... But the more I think about it... when was the last time I wore my chrono? when was the last time I used chrono function, except to show my friends it works?

Currently, I am on the verge between chrono and SOP and I will see how this discussion helps to shape my final decission...
 
#37 ·
Re: Now the term regulator comes up!

But the more I think about it... when was the last time I wore my chrono? when was the last time I used chrono function, except to show my friends it works?
I run my chrono all the time! Never ever thought about it wearing the movement out. It's a chrono... I reckon it's meant to be used.
 
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