Can pure CNC machined watches produce superior quality and performance to handmade watches?

[Borys Bozzor Pawliw]

Hi all,

I recently had a look on YouTube about how high end watches, such as Blancpain, Lange & Söhne and Grand Seiko are made. True artisans working with passion, most impressive. However, I cannot but help wonder if perhaps, pure CNC machines may be able to produce a higher quality product with better tolerances. As amazing as the work of these people is, I still wonder about small amounts of water vapor on human breath, about bits of skin and hair and perhaps something slightly jarred by very steady but far from perfect hands. Or is it the case that at this type of scale, machines cannot yet match human dexterity?

I also saw the Casio Protrek factory in action: far more massive scale, far more automated, workers looked more like surgeons...but is the end result something with greater precision, even if it is without the human touch?

[mars-red]

This is a topic that will probably spark a lot of debate, but from my perspective hand-made versus CNC has nothing to do with precision and tolerances. The precision and the tolerances ultimately manifest themselves in timekeeping ability... and I do not think anyone would question the time-keeping ability of watches made by George Daniels, Vianney Halter, or Philippe Dufour. It is about tradition and craftsmanship. A lot of extra time and effort is put into these watches, and a lot of extra money paid for them, purely due to that soul and character that cannot be quantified. I believe Vianney Halter once said it is the quantity of imperfections that make these watches "perfect".

Should be interesting to see where this conversation goes...

[AcridSaint]

Hi - machinists, watchmakers, etc can learn to keep exceptionally tight tolerances by hand. It used to be a right of passage to be able to file flat under one thou across a surface.

Machines will be able to give you incredibly tight tolerances, but it's often just not cost effective. Most tolerances are 5-10% in bulk machining operations and surface finishes are 10s ofmicrons at best. If you want parts to come off of a machine with sub 1% variance and a 1 micron or finer finish, you would have to use more expensive tooling and greatly reduce run times. All of that and you still don't get a hand-made watch movement.

[Roland Ranfft]

Hi ladies,

it is just a matter of produced quantities. If your CNC toy doesn't guarantee the requested accuracy, you need a better and usually more expensive machine. Manually made accuracy just asks some more patience. For huge quantities the new machine is cheaper, for low volume the patience.

Technological progress is not that such machines are available, but that we have the choice between machinery and craftsmanship. Nobody would produce watch plates with a jig saw, but there are still many who leave this odd job to a cheap mill, but still polish pivots to size manually.

Regards, Roland Ranfft

[mars-red]

Hi ladies,

I bet you say that to all the guys. ;)

[RustyMainspring]

Performance is pretty much a jewel/bearing/bushing and hairspring game. If by quality you mean finish than no you cannot beat a hand finish no just can't.

[J.D.B.]

Hi - machinists, watchmakers, etc can learn to keep exceptionally tight tolerances by hand. It used to be a right of passage to be able to file flat under one thou across a surface.

Machines will be able to give you incredibly tight tolerances, but it's often just not cost effective. Most tolerances are 5-10% in bulk machining operations and surface finishes are 10s ofmicrons at best. If you want parts to come off of a machine with sub 1% variance and a 1 micron or finer finish, you would have to use more expensive tooling and greatly reduce run times. All of that and you still don't get a hand-made watch movement.

I beg to differ. In my company we routinely hold within three to four micron tolerances on various metal components made in bulk, at fairly high speed. we do this in several large plants. Simply astounding what modern machinery can produce. Initial investment was not cheap, but the quality of parts is well worth it, and has greatly simplified the assemblies. Overall costs have become quite manageable.
After watching the video of the Panerai watchmaking process, I ask why the cost to the customer is still so high given the near absence on hand work compared to the mostly hand-crafted products in similar price ranges. They are capable of turning out their watches at relatively high speed, with far fewer actual watchmakers, in large quantities.

Josh

[RustyMainspring]

The price that high for Panerai because that is what they made the MSRP.

[Borys Bozzor Pawliw]

To get a bit of idea of what I have seen, if you can spare some time please look at...

Blancpain: Blancpain Tourbillion Mechanical Watch - Assembly & Testing - YouTube
Patek Phillipe: Patek Philippe - Birth of a Legend - YouTube
Seiko Ananta: SEIKO watches, the Ananta watch manufacture (the insides) - YouTube
Audemars Piguet: Audemars Piguet - Making of ... - YouTube
Rolex: A look inside the Rolex factory - YouTube
Tag Heuer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V060F67Oboc

As you can see, above is an interesting comparison of degrees of human and machine work.

Now below, here is the Casio Protrek plant

Casio :Casio factory g-shock Higashine - YouTube (skip to 2.50 mins)

Now, the videos do span a number of years and may not always show the most current techniques or technologies, but I do wonder if perhaps the Casio way is, by the technology use, producing the most defect free watch because of the minimal human intervention...or is this human intervention needed for true quality?

Btw, am stunned by the Blancpain way: true artisans. I know how hard this is, but could a machine do this 'better'...and would anyone want that?

[pithy]

-------------- but I do wonder if perhaps the Casio way is, by the technology use, producing the most defect free watch because of the minimal human intervention...or is this human intervention needed for true quality?- - - - - - - -

BBP:

Most people that frequent this forum don't even consider Casio to be a proper watch.

p