Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao (CANCELED) - Discussion Thread

[Crusader]

By JohnF and Crusader

How to begin? Well, we guess the best way is to simply say what needs to be said, and then fill in some background.

We - i.e. "JohnF" and "Crusader" - have been kicking an idea around for quite some time, and have decided, despite all the turmoil in the world, despite all the worries we all have about the economy and our jobs, that it is time for some righteous WIS action here on Watchuseek. Something to brighten our spirits, to rekindle the flame, to help us fight the fight in our lonely vigil against the darkness.

Herewith let us announce the brand new, spanking fresh and the one and only: A-11 project.

That's right: this is the official start of the A-11 project, to create the best, most accurate and kick-ass homage to "The Wristwatch That Won The War", the A-11, built by three US manufacturers (Elgin, Bulova and Waltham). No, to at least our great disappointment, none of these companies are around anymore to create us this homage (at least not in a meaningful way), so we put our heads together and came up with what we both think is the very best company to make this unique homage:

Bill Yao of Mk II Watches

You've read that correctly: Bill is on the project with us. He will incorporate our designs, work with them to create a viable homage to this watch that will both respect the original design and update it for modern-day use. He's the best man we can think of - and those of you who have his watches will, I think, tend to agree - and his involvement underscores how seriously we've been working on this behind the scenes. An A-11 homage needs a strong American Connection, and Bill Yao has worked hard to become the best in homaging military watches of the past

This isn't a watch that will be ready for Christmas (not this year, anyway ). Heck, this isn't a watch that's going to be ready for Easter! This is a watch that will take time to make because we're going to make it right. No stock cases, dials and hands are available for an A-11 homage, so we need to design and build the watch from scratch.

And it's going to be a Watchuseek watch: it's going to be offered, initially, in a limited edition with the Watchuseek logo and name, placed subtly, underscoring how this watch is, more than anything else, our watch. Not some mass-produced pseudo-"limited edition" that merely stamps a number on the back and says "how many did you want of this again?", but rather one that everyone here can start here with and accompany to the final delivery.

Here are a few pictures of an original 1944/45 Elgin A-11 which we think could serve as reference watch for the project (courtesy of Watchuseek member river_rat - thank you very much!) :










Here are some of the basics that are proposed for the project:

manufacturer: Mk II Corp. (Bill Yao), USA
approx. diameter: 38-40mm (upscaled from the original 32mm, a small watch); approx. height: ~11-13, mm depending on crystal
German-made stainless steel case, designed from the original casing and adapted to the larger size
lug width: 20mm (the most versatile lug width), lugs drilled-through
dial: matte black with white numbers, no date
hands: white, lume to be determined (original had none!), central sweep second hand
movement: automatic ETA 2824-2, Rhodium plated, Incabloc shock protection, Elaborée grade, fully decorated including Geneva stripes on the rotor and signed MkII, metal spacer ring
water resistance: 100m, no screw-down crown
crystal: double-domed sapphire, inside AR-coated
strap: period style canvas
box: really cool packaging (ok, a cardboard box that looks the original boxes used to store these watches)
Watchuseek special edition: Limited edition of 100; specially engraved caseback (similar to the original); dial (and possibly crown) with Watchuseek name or logo (subdued print)
price range: US$ 500 to 650
deposit amount (to be made to Bill Yao's separate Paypal account a-eleven@mkiiwatches.com, and fully refundable until the design is finalized and sampling begins, or if we do not collect the required 100 pre-orders): US$ 275
production time: about one year from official launch, so we have a good chance to have the watch in hand by Christmas 2009.

Now, before we all get hot and bothered, now the logistics: Bill will build the watches, and at the end of the day he will decide what is feasible and what isn't.

We will need to collect 100 deposits before we can start signing up suppliers and begin the project in ernest. To maximize our chances of delivery in the 2009 we need to hit the 100 pre-order mark by December 31st 2008. The balance will be due before the watches enter final manufacturing ca. in May 2009.

That said, let the discussion begin! There is a separate thread on the A-11, on both the historical and on technical aspects of the watch, and we'll start up reservation procedures right now (with deposit, but fully refundable as noted above).

Let's get started!

[Janne]

Jan: 2/100 and 50/100, thank you!
Only 97 to go!

Is a COSC certified movement a possibility?

[Janne]

Is this thread also for the discussion of the design, or will it be done on a separate thread?

[Crusader]

Originally Posted by Janne

Is this thread also for the discussion of the design, or will it be done on a separate thread?

As long as we don't know how solid the interest is in the homage watch, please use this thread also for design comments of the homage watch. If the volume rises, we can always separate the thread later on.

[JohnF]

Hi -

Agree with Martin here, let's keep everything in this thread: we can separate out later.

Just a couple of words on the basic philosophy that Martin and I are taking here (if I may be so presumptuous to speak for Martin): we're interested in a homage to a watch that, while based on a fairly restrictive military specification of the time, did see a number of iterations (Elgin, Bulova and Waltham did their own versions of the watch). The important thing in designing this is to keep true to the spirit of the design, as can be seen, basically, in the pictures that RiverRat was so kind to allow us to use.

JohnF

[whifferdill]

Superb project guys - a real boost for WUS and a great chance to add something truly unique to a collection.

[lysanderxiii]

I shall assume the dial will be the Elgin/Waltham pattern no the Bulova pattern, as railroad tracks are a bit over done these days.

Will the name be in black on black just like the originals?

If the knurling is to kept on the front, will the case be a real three piece case?

The crown will have to be huge to keep it in proportion to the case, over 8-1/4 mm.

[JohnF]

Hi -

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

There will be no 1:1 scaling, as that would violate more than a few design principles. Such a large crown would make it unwearable (would dig into the wrist when worn!), but we'll work out something that makes sense.

JohnF

[Janne]

I see that the suggested movement is an automatic, nicely decorated.
I would like to be able to buy an engraved exhibition caseback too.
This movement is a nice one.
Very exciting Project MKII !!

If no 2 will be free in the future, (prospective buyer might change his mind) I would like to have the first option on it!

Wow, having an important watch"hommage" from both sides of the conflict!

[Yao]

Originally Posted by Janne

I would like to be able to buy an engraved exhibition caseback too.
This movement is a nice one.

It might be available. We will actually be making 200 cases as just 100 wouldn't be cost effective. The other 100 will be "Mk II" cases and I am seriously considering the idea of using an exhibition back.

[Crusader]

Originally Posted by Janne

I see that the suggested movement is an automatic, nicely decorated.
I would like to be able to buy an engraved exhibition caseback too.
This movement is a nice one.
Very exciting Project MKII !!

Most of the preliminary discussion between Bill, John and myself was consumed in the quest for a handwound movement for this watch. But it's just not possible at the price stated. A handwound movement would introduce substantial risks in terms of the final proice, quality control and delivery date.

So we bit the bullet and settled on the decorated movements which Bill has coming in. They are an excellent offer in terms of cost, serviceability, availablilty and quality. And after all, the 2824 is really a handwound movement with an additional mechanism to keep the mainspring in the best state of charge ...

As for the feasability of an additional viewback (billed separately, presumably, as perhaps not everyone would want to have one) ... Bill?

[city-dweller]

Originally Posted by Crusader

Most of the preliminary discussion between Bill, John and myself was consumed in the quest for a handwound movement for this watch. But it's just not possible at the price stated. A handwound movement would introduce substantial risks in terms of the final proice, quality control and delivery date.

so, the handwound is completely out of question then.
pity...

[Crusader]

Originally Posted by city-dweller

so, the handwound is completely out of question then.
pity...

As a serial feature, yes.

[Janne]

Not being too familiar with Bill Yao, a (stupid) question: Is Bill also a "movement mechanic"/watchmaker or "just" an designer and manufacturer?
Is there a place on the 'net where I can read about him more in detail?

Edit: I would prefer to have the WUS logo on the caseback, have mr Yao's logo in Black on Black on the dial and have a sterile crown

[lysanderxiii]

Originally Posted by Crusader

And after all, the 2824 is really a handwound movement with an additional mechanism to keep the mainspring in the best state of charge ...

Actually, in terms of introduction date, the ETA 2804 is an ETA 2824 with the automatic winding equipment removed.

But, as a useful watch, an automatic is probably a better choice.

[chansigril]

professing my interest in #76

there's no chance for a date eh

well in for details and follow-ups

[DanG]

Originally Posted by Crusader

As a serial feature, yes.

At what level of interest does it become possible to have a handwound movement?
Let's be purist as much as possible, even at 32 mm, if need be.
Perhaps eta has a handwound option? Or, even get a bit more homage - perhaps DoD has historic production drawings that can be modernized and made in USA (jobs programs?) - not made in china - more purist expressing desire. If this is done properly, I bet the concept can spread much further than WUS and a made in USA watch could catch fever real quick - especially as a purist homage. I mean, so much stuff that appears homage, is made in china. Cost is not god - not for this type of purist/homage project.
OTOH, let's be realistic about cost projections - see weapons costs
http://spectrum.ieee.org/weapons

[Yao]

Originally Posted by DanG

At what level of interest does it become possible to have a handwound movement?
Let's be purist as much as possible, even at 32 mm, if need be.
Perhaps eta has a handwound option? Or, even get a bit more homage - perhaps DoD has historic production drawings that can be modernized and made in USA (jobs programs?) - not made in china - more purist expressing desire. If this is done properly, I bet the concept can spread much further than WUS and a made in USA watch could catch fever real quick - especially as a purist homage. I mean, so much stuff that appears homage, is made in china. Cost is not god - not for this type of purist/homage project.
OTOH, let's be realistic about cost projections - see weapons costs
http://spectrum.ieee.org/weapons

Hi Dan....unfortunately the supply of ETA movements is still very tight. The question of availability and final price of the movement make it untenable to base the project on a manual wind movement. A vintage movement is not on the table either because of service/parts issues down the road. JohnF, Crusader, and I examined all of the available options to put a manual wind movement into the watch but no matter which way we looked at it it was just not feasible.

The upside of using an automatic movement is that I can guarantee one of excellent quality and finish and at a price that will enable us to price the watch at a level that will be affordable. This will also allow us the freedom to invest the majority of the price into getting the case, dial, and hands made from the ground up so that we can get what we want not just what is available.

We will be using a German made case so the quality will be there. Finding/developing a US case manufacturer would pose too many execution risks and in all likelihood the timetable and costs would explode. I don't even think there are any case manufacturers of any scale left in the US.

[Yao]

Originally Posted by chansigril

professing my interest in #76

there's no chance for a date eh

well in for details and follow-ups

As for the date option I think that is still doable. It could be done in addition to the non-date version. It will only affect the final price marginally. If you guys think its worth the extra cost it can be done. But the limit would have to be two dial options because assemblers usually have a 50 piece minimum per style.

[David Woo]

Deposit just made for #53, thanks go out to Martin, John and Bill for a great idea.
A personal preference: can the case be blasted or brushed? I'm not crazy about polished finishes :)
David W