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  1. #41
    Member bluloo's Avatar
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    Re: How do Seagull and Hangzhou compare to a ETA: An in-depth look...

    Thanks so much for sharing this. Very educational.


  2. #42
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    Re: How do Seagull and Hangzhou compare to a ETA: An in-depth look...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha-Getty View Post
    By stiff, I'm meaning compared to movements like the Miyota 8200, ST16 or my favourite; the Shangahi B.

    I have a couple of ETA 2824s, an AS1916 and an Eterna Matic 1424; all which have about the same level of 'stiffness' to manually wind. Compared to the Asian movements, it requires vastly more grip and torque to wind these Swiss movements.
    The Shanghai B uses clutches in the reverser wheels as opposed to the pawls used by ETA, much like the Elgin 760 (see below)



    If you want a really smooth winding system try a PUW 1361, which decouples the entire autowinding system from the manual winding system when the crown is turned. These movements feel like you are "winding" a Seiko.

    Part of the reason the ETA is "stiff" when winding is you are turning the auto wind mechanism backwards, so the mechanical advantage is against you. The other reason is the drag from the reverser pawls.

  3. #43
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    Re: How do Seagull and Hangzhou compare to a ETA: An in-depth look...

    Quote Originally Posted by lysanderxiii View Post
    The Shanghai B uses clutches in the reverser wheels as opposed to the pawls used by ETA, much like the Elgin 760 (see below)



    If you want a really smooth winding system try a PUW 1361, which decouples the entire autowinding system from the manual winding system when the crown is turned. These movements feel like you are "winding" a Seiko.

    Part of the reason the ETA is "stiff" when winding is you are turning the auto wind mechanism backwards, so the mechanical advantage is against you. The other reason is the drag from the reverser pawls.
    Thanks again for an excellent explanation.

    You have mentioned the Elgin a couple of times...does that movement represent a mark of achievement in Swiss watch making? For example is this a movement upon which few beneficial improvements have been made since?

  4. #44
    Member lysanderxiii's Avatar
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    Re: How do Seagull and Hangzhou compare to a ETA: An in-depth look...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha-Getty View Post
    Thanks again for an excellent explanation.

    You have mentioned the Elgin a couple of times...does that movement represent a mark of achievement in Swiss watch making? For example is this a movement upon which few beneficial improvements have been made since?
    No, but maybe American watchmaking....

    The Elgin 760 and 761 were (sadly) the only American made automatics, ever.

    Some notable achievements:

    - Full rotor bidirectional winding without the need for spring clutches,
    - A winding mechanism that, as the mainspring reached closer to full wind, and the resistance increased, the autowind system "downshifted" to increase the applied torque of the rotor.
    - the "Dura-Balance" free sprung balance, with a rather novel method of changing the moment of inertia of the balance to regulate the speed.

    These movements were introduced about four or five years before Elgin went out of business, and have never been produced since.

  5. #45
    Member lysanderxiii's Avatar
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    Re: How do Seagull and Hangzhou compare to a ETA: An in-depth look...

    Well, back to the subject, both the Seagull and the Hangzhou have been reassembled and are running fine.

    The Hangzhou initially had a problem, and I though back to Alpha-Getty's comments and though it might be prophetic, as the Hangzhou was showing wild variations in amplitude. But, after taking it back down again and cleaning it again, it has settled down to a good 300 degree amplitude. (There was a piece of pith wood stuck on a wheel pivot.)

    Both were cleaned and oiled, the Seagull showed a minor change in rate, picking up a second, probably due to the addition of oil. It is now running at -3.4 seconds per day.

    The Hangzhou showed a greater change (I believe it had a tad too much oil on it) and is running a very nice +4.5 s/d.

    Also, while reassembling these movements, I noticed that the pictures in this thread are not really representative of the movements. After all, showing something at 12x larger than life tends to show the worst side.

    Take the pictures of the pallet forks (below for reference) these look like they have a 16 finish on them and were made by a cave man with a cold chisel and a hammer. The reality is they are nice shiney little parts, maybe not as shiny as the ETA, but quite well made.

    At 12x, the beauty of the decorative finish is also lost. The pearlage on the autowinding bridge on the Seagull looks quite poor when enlarged, at 1x, it is a very nice job that they did.







    With better composition and lighting, we can show thes little beauties in all their glory. Something like this ETA 2821-1 is easily their equal:



    On another subject broached here, oiling, or lack of, I have been thinking. A well made movement, sent out from the factory bone dry will probably last 10 to 15 years of constant use before wear will disable it. But, not oiling reduces the likelihood of over-oiling problems which would usually lead to returns.

    So, by purposely neglecting to oil the movements is a wise business choice, as these movements are not intended to be heirlooms and passed from generation to generation, but neat little fashion accessories (that tell time) and are replaced when the owner becomes bored with it, or something else catches their eye.
    Last edited by lysanderxiii; December 30th, 2008 at 04:14.
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  6. #46
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    Re: How do Seagull and Hangzhou compare to a ETA: An in-depth look...

    Quote Originally Posted by lysanderxiii View Post
    No, but maybe American watchmaking....

    The Elgin 760 and 761 were (sadly) the only American made automatics, ever.
    Of course...my bad :oops:

    Some notable achievements:

    - Full rotor bidirectional winding without the need for spring clutches,
    - A winding mechanism that, as the mainspring reached closer to full wind, and the resistance increased, the autowind system "downshifted" to increase the applied torque of the rotor.
    - the "Dura-Balance" free sprung balance, with a rather novel method of changing the moment of inertia of the balance to regulate the speed.

    These movements were introduced about four or five years before Elgin went out of business, and have never been produced since.
    Sadly, a lot of really excellent products have been lost to us through poor management, bad economic times and/or competition from places like Japan and China.

    On the bright side, we have also gained new innovations like High End Quartz movements, Spring Drive and some of the things that the Chinese are doing with complications like the tourbillon and karousel(sp?) offerings.

    I wonder who will produce the next innovation?
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  7. #47
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    Re: How do Seagull and Hangzhou compare to a ETA: An in-depth look...

    Thanks for elaborating on the picture representation at magnification vs reality at eye level(1x).

    Now that you've exposed us to these three movements and previously to the ST16 and DG28/38xx with mention of the Shanghai B...how would you rate all 6; using the same criteria as you have in this thread?
    Last edited by Pawl_Buster; December 30th, 2008 at 06:23.

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    Re: How do Seagull and Hangzhou compare to a ETA: An in-depth look...

    I wolud also like to thank you for your awesome review of these 3 movements. As someone who has just gotten into Chinese wristwatches, this thread certainly offers alot of insight and valuable info.

    T
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  9. #49
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    Re: How do Seagull and Hangzhou compare to a ETA: An in-depth look...

    Quote Originally Posted by Time4Watches View Post
    I wolud also like to thank you for your awesome review of these 3 movements. As someone who has just gotten into Chinese wristwatches, this thread certainly offers alot of insight and valuable info.

    T
    I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you lysanderxiii for your time, effort, and knowledge and thank you sapcmc (Prometheus Watch Co.) for supplying the movements.

    Cheers,
    gigfy
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  10. #50
    Member lysanderxiii's Avatar
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    Re: How do Seagull and Hangzhou compare to a ETA: An in-depth look...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha-Getty View Post
    Of course...my bad :oops:

    Sadly, a lot of really excellent products have been lost to us through poor management, bad economic times and/or competition from places like Japan and China.

    On the bright side, we have also gained new innovations like High End Quartz movements, Spring Drive and some of the things that the Chinese are doing with complications like the tourbillon and karousel(sp?) offerings.

    I wonder who will produce the next innovation?
    Actually it was, of all places, Switzerland that did in the great American watchmaking houses (Bulova, Elgin, Hamilton and Waltham, three of whom would go under in the decade following 1957) with generally lower, but acceptable quality, and prices the US firms couldn't compete with, due the the cost of labor being much lower that in the US in the immediate post war period. That, coupled with the unavailability of US made watches immediately after the war because of the need to retool to a consumer product line versus the war effort work of the previous three and half years.

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