Seagull ST19 jewel count = 21 OR 23 !!! ( Thanks lysanderxiii )

Thread: Seagull ST19 jewel count = 21 OR 23 !!! ( Thanks lysanderxiii )

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  1. #1
    CMW & Sales Moderator gigfy's Avatar
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    Seagull ST19 jewel count = 21 OR 23 !!! ( Thanks lysanderxiii )

    EDIT (Apr 2010): 21 OR 23 jewels!

    Quote Originally Posted by lysanderxiii View Post
    Having seen the insides in several 1963s, I now say it is 21 jewels.

    The Seagull brand watches using the ST1900 are 23, as are the spares you can get from Cousins.
    Quote Originally Posted by lysanderxiii View Post
    There are two hidden jewels, the lower jewel for the slider gear, and the lower jewel for the intermediate minute counter wheel. Unless the movement is disassembled, and these two parts flipped over and examined, you could miss these two in a jewel count.

    If the manufacturer tells a seller it is a 21 jewel movement and the seller takes off the back and looks, he would conclude, it is, as two are not visible on an assembled movement.

    Conversely, these two jewels could be replace by bronze bushings (at no real loss of performance, most Swiss manual chronograph had all bronze bushings in the chronograph section) in 21 jewel movements, these 21 jewel movements would look identical to the 23 jewel movement.

    The original 19 jewel movements left out all four jewels in the slider gear and int. min. counter.
    Yes, I believe the Venus 175 is the grand father of the ST1901 movement. Some companies are selling the ST19 variants and touting them as being designed from the Swiss Venus 175, while skipping over the Made in China part. I believe the ST1901 is the closest relative to the Venus 175 and has some interchangeable parts.

    There has been some discussion lately about replacement parts. Are you capable of repairing or supplying replacement parts for the ST19 movements?

    Here is a list of the variants, as I know it: (info from cnmark)

    ST1901
    2 register,
    small seconds at 9,
    30 min counter at 3

    ST1902
    3 register,
    small seconds at 9,
    30 min counter at 3
    12 h register at 6 (non chrono)

    ST1903
    3 register,
    small seconds at 9,
    30 min counter at 3
    24 h register at 6 (non chrono)

    ST1904 - unused model number

    ST1905
    2 register,
    small seconds at 9,
    30 min counter at 3
    decentral power reserve at 4:30

    ST1906
    2 register,
    small seconds at 9,
    30 min counter at 3
    decentral power reserve at 6

    ST1907
    2 register,
    small seconds at 9,
    30 min counter at 3
    central power reserve indicator

    ST1908
    4 register,
    small seconds at 9,
    30 min counter at 3
    date at 12
    real moon phase at 6







    But Seagull is developing or considering:
    • A true 3-register chrono with a 12h chronograph counter at 6, prototypes have been built, this might be one of the missing denominations.
    • A GMT variant of the ST1903, where the 24h register can be set independently - only in consideration.
    • An automatic winding module for the ST19 movement series is in development. (Basel 2008?)

    Cheers,
    gigfy


    Original Post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivo View Post
    The jewels have been counted! With great thanks to Stef Loeff who patiently dismantled the complete movement and counted and double counted the number of jewels.

    The 19 zuan and 21 zuan versions both contain the same movement. However, the actual number of jewels is 21. As someone suggested in an earlier reply the 19 zuan was probably mentioned for nostalgic reasons.

    As you might or might not know, Stef mentioned that the original movement was based on a Venus movement (probably Venus 175). The Swiss movement manufacturer sold some old machinery to China in the late 50's/early 60's. They probably cloned the movement and might have made some minor changes to it.

    It's hard to determine which jewels have been added, since we have no original 60's movement to compare it with. The Incablock-like part might have been added to the movement in later years, but that's not for sure.
    Hello Ivo,

    Thanks for the information. 21 jewels, wow! Would it be too much to ask and see if Stef took some pictures of the dissassembly? A dissassembly post with pictures is a pretty rare and valued post for the technical minded collectors.
    Last edited by gigfy; May 1st, 2010 at 07:44. Reason: new information

  2. #2
    Member djmattm's Avatar
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    Re: Seagull ST19 jewel count = 21 !!! ( Thanks Ivo )

    an automatic one would be mine for sure!!!!!!!

  3. #3
    Member lysanderxiii's Avatar
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    Re: Seagull ST19 jewel count = 21 !!! ( Thanks Ivo )

    The original Venus had seventeen (17) jewels, as follows:

    Balanace staff - 2 bearing, 2 cap, total 4
    Impluse - 1
    Pallet - 2
    Pallet pivot - 2
    Escape wheel - 2
    4th wheel - 2
    3rd wheel - 2
    Top Chronograph second counter pivot - 1
    Top Chronograph minute counter pivot - 1

    I can see where you could put two on either side of the center wheel, two in the transfer arm for the pivots of the transfer wheel, and another one for the lower pivot for the chronograph minute counter wheel.

    My guess is the center wheel and the transfer wheel, which would add 4 jewels bringing it up to 21.

    EDIT:

    There are two additional jewels in the transfer arm (see image)

    Last edited by lysanderxiii; October 3rd, 2008 at 19:18.

  4. #4
    Mod. Russian, China Mech. Chascomm's Avatar
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    Re: Seagull ST19 jewel count = 21 !!! ( Thanks Ivo )

    The Incablock-like part might have been added to the movement in later years, but that's not for sure.
    If I recall correctly, Venus chronographs at the time of tool transfer were not shockproofed. Whether or not Project 304 was shockproofed is unknown, but we do know that the Chinese did some development on the Swiss design at that time as Project 304 had 19 jewels compared to 17 for the Venus 175.

    The ST19 has had 2 more jewels added and the escapement uprated from 18000bph to 21600. No doubt there were other enhancements to make use of modern manufacturing techniques.

  5. #5
    Ivo
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    Re: Seagull ST19 jewel count = 21 !!! ( Thanks Ivo )



    Above are two pictures Stef took while dismantling the watches.

  6. #6
    Member lysanderxiii's Avatar
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    Re: Seagull ST19 jewel count = 21 !!! ( Thanks Ivo )

    Quote Originally Posted by Chascomm View Post
    If I recall correctly, Venus chronographs at the time of tool transfer were not shockproofed. Whether or not Project 304 was shockproofed is unknown, but we do know that the Chinese did some development on the Swiss design at that time as Project 304 had 19 jewels compared to 17 for the Venus 175.

    The ST19 has had 2 more jewels added and the escapement uprated from 18000bph to 21600. No doubt there were other enhancements to make use of modern manufacturing techniques.
    Some Venuses were fitted with shock protection:



    The major visual difference between the Venus and the ST is the smaller balance wheel (part of the upgrade from 18,000 to 21,600 bph) and the jeweling on the transfer arm. (Compare the picture from Ranfft to the one in my earlier post.)

  7. #7
    Member dbluefish's Avatar
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    Re: Seagull ST19 jewel count = 21 !!! ( Thanks Ivo )

    So another mystery solved! While at a local Chinese restaurant shortly after receiving my Sea Gull, I asked them to translate the wording on the front. Either i was not understanding or they were not sure but now i know 19 Zuan = 21 Jewels! I knew I had a jewel (lol) of a watch, but not two extra!

    paul
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  8. #8
    CMW & Sales Moderator gigfy's Avatar
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    Re: Seagull ST19 jewel count = 21 !!! ( Thanks Ivo )

    So we now have a definitive answer.

    The ST19 has 23 jewels.

    Quote Originally Posted by lysanderxiii View Post
    There are two hidden jewels, the lower jewel for the slider gear, and the lower jewel for the intermediate minute counter wheel. Unless the movement is disassembled, and these two parts flipped over and examined, you could miss these two in a jewel count.

    If the manufacturer tells a seller it is a 21 jewel movement and the seller takes off the back and looks, he would conclude, it is, as two are not visible on an assembled movement.

    Conversely, these two jewels could be replace by bronze bushings (at no real loss of performance, most Swiss manual chronograph had all bronze bushings in the chronograph section) in 21 jewel movements, these 21 jewel movements would look identical to the 23 jewel movement.

    The original 19 jewel movements left out all four jewels in the slider gear and int. min. counter.

  9. #9
    Member lysanderxiii's Avatar
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    Re: Seagull ST19 jewel count = 23 !!! ( Thanks lysanderxiii )

    Actually, what I said was the one I looked at was 23 jewels.

    The one Ivo's watchmaker looked at could have been a 21 jewel movement. (no jewels in the lower mountings).

    And, you can't tell the difference between the two (21 or 23 jewels) without disassembly.

    But, it doesn't make much practical difference anyway.

  10. #10
    Member obsidian's Avatar
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    Re: Seagull ST19 jewel count = 23 !!! ( Thanks lysanderxiii )

    The chronos on usseagull.com are listed as having 22 jewels-- except for the power reserve models which have 30 jewels! I can't see any reason for the PR complication requiring 8 jewels, so they must just be sticking jewels where ever they can. But hey, it's not like the Swiss don't do the same thing to make a watch seem "better".
    The best watch is the one that makes you happiest... and tells the time.

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