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  1. #11
    CMW & Sales Moderator gigfy's Avatar
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    Re: Wow! Seagull 1963 but can you spot the error?

    Quote Originally Posted by Back View Post
    Nope. I first thought it would be an obvious error, but giving it a good examination and finally taking out my own to compare I see no difference...
    ...except that it says '19 zuan' instead of '21 zuan'. If I remember correctly from older discussions: filled star with red says '21' zuan', while the models with unfilled star says '19 zuan'.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the 1963s all have "only" 19 jewels?
    No, all ST1901 movements (according to lysanderxiii's breakdowns) from Tsinlien Sea-Gull 1963 watches have 21 jewel movements.

    17 jewels = original Venus 175
    19 jewels = original 1960's Chinese military chronograph (project 304)
    21 jewels = ST1901 from Tsinlien Sea-Gull
    23 jewels = ST1901 from Sea-Gull branded watches

    There have been many, many variants of these watches. All I can do is speculate, but since these are made in batches and from what appears to be different sources in HK there are (and will continue to be) different variants.

    This is what I can piece together:

    1. jtbold sourced the first batch (19 zuan, unfilled star, solid back).
    2. Then cnmark sourced multiple batches (and noted differences in every batch). His first batch was like jtbolds, then his second & subsequent batches started having small differences (filled stars, swapped register hands, glass back option).
    3. Then WatchUnique (and a few other Northern European sellers) offered the 21zuan in different variants (21zuan dials, etc.). And a few of those sellers re-branded them with their own brands (sorry I can't recall the names).
    4. Now Thomas is offering single watches hand assembled from his stock (signed crowns, dial errors, etc.). Which I think will continue to increase the variants.


    BTW, mine from cnmark's second batch also has the register hands swapped.

    (click on pics)
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    Here is one from jtbold's batch (that I purchased and traded to a very nice guy from Gibraltar for a cnmark first batch 0437)

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    0437 variant
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    cheers,
    gigfy

  2. #12
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    Interesting. My "21 zuan" from Watchunique has the same hand arrangement as the OP's. No wonder I spent so much time looking at the photos and couldn't spot it.

  3. #13
    Moderator: F72 and F71 AlbertaTime's Avatar
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    Re: Wow! Seagull 1963 but can you spot the error?

    Yeeehawwwww! another '63 thread and a great excuse to post the photos of this beauty...in all its variants.



    Mine like Oz's except for 21 zuan...
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    Re: Wow! Seagull 1963 but can you spot the error?

    Quote Originally Posted by Back View Post
    Attachment 365391 Attachment 365392 Attachment 365393
    No. 1 and 2 are really old, while no. 3 seems to be newer. Can't remember where I found the picture though (think it was WUS) as it looks almost identical to the re-issue model which makes it a bit too mysteriously alike...
    EDIT
    On a second thought: could no. 3 simply be an old 1963 shell with a new dial (the dial simply looks too good to be old...) Thoughts?
    The latest limited edition issued by Sea-Gull Tianjin assembled the no 1 and no 2 (If my memory serves me well, gigfy is the only one who has acquired it and has shown it in this forum) According to the company website, the first Chinese air force chronograph was not in production until 1966 after a third batch of prototype was made. The recent limited edition issued by Sea-Gull Tianjin were in big scale (in 10,000 pcs if I am not mistaken) and it should be the reissue for the chronograph properly produced from 1966 onwards.

    According to the website, a second batch of prototype of 30 plus pieces were made in 1963. As the reissue from HK is named after 1963; I think it must have been based on the prototype made in 1963. As only 30 plus pieces of prototype were made, it would be very very slim chance that one would have kept it till todate. The no 3 if it is really one of the 1963 prototype that chap must be laughing to the bank by now. Judging from the appearance of the dial and hands which are new, I concur with u that it could be a new dial in an old case.

    Has anyone had the photo of 1963 prototype?

    Quote Originally Posted by lysanderxiii View Post
    Odd, but generally, the tailed hand is the second hand in Swiss chronographs and the tailless pointer is the minute counter.

    Which is why I think the reissue 'error' looks better.
    Any photo to show the Swiss chronograph?
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertaTime View Post
    Yeeehawwwww! another '63 thread and a great excuse to post the photos of this beauty...in all its variants.
    Mine like Oz's except for 21 zuan...
    Ha, your statement has inspired me to start a new thread calling for 1963 variants.

  5. #15
    Member lysanderxiii's Avatar
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    Re: Wow! Seagull 1963 but can you spot the error?

    Quote Originally Posted by ozputera View Post
    Any photo to show the Swiss chronograph?






    The Swiss seem to prefer either two matching sub-dials or a tailed second and a pointer minute counter. I don't see any with tailless minute counters and tailed minute counters, although, I am sure somewhere there are one or two.
    Last edited by lysanderxiii; December 27th, 2010 at 16:39.
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  6. #16
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    Re: Wow! Seagull 1963 but can you spot the error?

    Quote Originally Posted by lysanderxiii View Post



    The Swiss seem to prefer either two matching sub-dials or a tailed second and a pointer minute counter. I don't see any with tailless minute counters and tailed minute counters, although, I am sure somewhere there are one or two.
    Thanks lysanderxiii. When I look at the 3rd photo, my immediate response was 'odd'.The design of the second hand and the second counter are the same.

  7. #17
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    Re: Wow! Seagull 1963 but can you spot the error?

    Based on design paper, arrow hand should be on right side.
    Attached Images Attached Images


  8. #18
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    Re: Wow! Seagull 1963 but can you spot the error?

    Where did you get a hold of this drawing?
    What does the Chinese characters say with arrows pointing to different parts of the watch?
    Do not try to confuse me with facts!

  9. #19
    lvt
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    Re: Wow! Seagull 1963 but can you spot the error?

    Quote Originally Posted by lysanderxiii View Post
    Odd, but generally, the tailed hand is the second hand in Swiss chronographs and the tailless pointer is the minute counter.

    Which is why I think the reissue 'error' looks better.

    +1

    Not only Swiss ones, the German A.Lange & Sohne chronograph watches also have the tailed hand in the small seconds sub-dial.

    So there is no error here, it's an improvement.
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  10. #20
    Member lysanderxiii's Avatar
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    Re: Wow! Seagull 1963 but can you spot the error?

    I found out why they are backwards on some models....

    The second hand post is too short. The ST19 is designed to work with recessed sub-dials, if they get hands designed for recessed subdials, they have to put them on the longer second hand post...
    familiaritas parit contemptum; raritate admiratione wins.- Lucius Apuleius
    est necessry, accurate ad secundo? - Lysander magna
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