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Seiko divers vs. the field...

21K views 148 replies 58 participants last post by  davec 
#1 · (Edited)
Disclaimer: Not looking to start any fights or put anybody down for their taste in watches. I'm just looking to understand points of view different than mine.

Just had an experience that got me thinking about the value proposition of Seiko dive watches versus competing brands. This happened when a fellow WUS member offered to trade his Seiko Shogun for my Steinhart OVM 2.0. In terms of cost, this would be a trade "up" for me, based on where I value my Steinhart and the likely cost of a clean, used Shogun. In terms of value to me, it would probably be an even trade, if that.

And it got me thinking about Seiko divers, in general. From an aesthetics standpoint, I've never been a Seiko fan, not really liking the largish, round indices on the otherwise plain dial, and the somewhat garish bezel designs on some, but this is all beside the point. My issue is with the fact that even an $800 - $1000 Seiko diver is going to have a low-beat (21,600 bph) movement and a Hardlex mineral glass crystal. Meanwhile, there are literally countless divers out there in the $300 range that have high-beat movements and sapphire glass. Now, I know that Seiko has a reputation for cranking out sturdy, reliable, mostly well-finished divers, but it would seem that there is a trade-off in terms of feature-set versus the competition one you get past their entry level offerings.

Removing styling from the equation, I just don't see the cost/value proposition of anything beneath an MM300 or an Emperor Tuna.

Lastly, I had to consider this: I love the look of the Helson Sharkdiver and have owned 4 of them. If they were spec'd out like a similarly priced Seiko with a low-beat movement and Hardlex crystal, would I still be interested? The answer is "no", though I will qualify this by saying I did own a 42mm SD in brass with the low-beat NH35 movement. I got it for about $225 used, and I really wanted a brass diver, so it was worthwhile to me overlook the movement. Of course, it did have a sapphire crystal. :)

Anyway, I'm obviously partial to the smooth sweep of a high-beat movement and love the scratch resistance of a sapphire crystal.

My question to the WUS faithful is, what is it about Seiko dive watches that make them a good value TO YOU?
 
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#2 ·
I think you figured it out when you said that the aesthetics don't do anything for you. I can't speak for others but I like the designs of the SKX, turtle, and baby tuna which I own (also have an MM300 on the way), and I also like that because of the mod community, I can totally transform something that I'm lukewarm about into something I really like.

I totally understand that they are not for everyone, I think aesthetics are totally subjective.

As for the low beat movements, maybe I don't spend that much time staring, but I don't really notice it that much compared to my Black Bay for example. Again, can't speak for everyone, but I've read a lot of these threads where a good number of people are not that bothered by it, as long as the movement is accurate and reliable.

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#3 ·
Regarding the low beat movement, it's not necessarily worse. Speaking generally, the low beat sacrifices a smoother sweep for greater durability. So you really just pick what you prefer. Seiko leans more to the "tool" side, so they go for more durability, thus lower beat. Fwiw, I've also read that they use hardlex because a scuba diver can live with scratches but not a shattered crystal (though I'm sure it helps cost too).

IMO seiko makes a great daily beater but if you need something a little dressier look elsewhere.

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#4 ·
There are many discussions on this if you have a search around. Lots of people think sapphire is best and more beats per minute must be better. There are lots of pro's and cons and there is a case for sapphire and higher-beat movements, there is a case for hardlex and lower-beat movements.

Sapphire has higher scratch resistance and lower impact resistance. Hardlex has lower scratch resistance but higher impact resistance. The sapphire crystal will stay looking good longer and the Hardlex is less prone to shatter. Both can scratch and both can be shattered though.

High-beat movements will be slightly more accurate, especially when at low power reserve. Low-beat movements have longer service intervals, because they run slower they wear out slower. In general terms both can keep decent time and both will go for years pretty reliably.

In some watches I think sapphire looks better, Hardlex looks better in others. Personally I though sapphire looked wrong on my Shogun and I put the hardlex back in it. I think Hardlex gives the MM300 a more vintage look and wouldn't want sapphire in that either.

I'd suggest not getting caught up in component preferences that are based on a limited view of what is best, especially if it ruins your enjoyment of what is a great watch!
 
#5 ·
When I hear someone looking for a new watch with a budget of $200 and under the first thing I can recommend to them would be either Seiko or Orient.
The history, in-house movement and production, and the classic design makes the SKX007/Ray/Mako a great value.
You can certainly get more watch for your money, but only if you pay more or purchase from a micro brand.

I am personally a fan of micro brands and the sheer value they offer to people, but not everyone is comfortable with an unknown brand.
BTW the fact that they still use Hardlex instead of sapphire in their high end models is still really stupid.
 
#10 ·
When I hear someone looking for a new watch with a budget of $200 and under the first thing I can recommend to them would be either Seiko or Orient.
The history, in-house movement and production, and the classic design makes the SKX007/Ray/Mako a great value.
You can certainly get more watch for your money, but only if you pay more or purchase from a micro brand.

I am personally a fan of micro brands and the sheer value they offer to people, but not everyone is comfortable with an unknown brand.
BTW the fact that they still use Hardlex instead of sapphire in their high end models is still really stupid.
100% agree. And I recommended Seiko to folks in that price range for the reasons mentioned here and elsewhere: They build a quality watch. No one will be pissed at you because they were unhappy with their Monster or even a Seiko 5.

As you can see from my signature, I'm also a micro brand geek, and for much the same reason as you...Bang for the buck. I will also add that it's nice to wear a brand that you won't find on everyone's wrist. Yes, there is a snob effect at work here!

While I think Seiko makes a very nice watch for the money in the entry level category, 007, Monster, etc. and the Grand Seiko line seems comparable to many "higher tier" brands, (I've only handled a few but never owned) I feel they struggle with their mid range offerings. I have some of the same issues you referenced when comparing specs vs. pricing to some of the many micro brands, whatever that means. There are more knowledgeable WIS'ers here that can expand on the technical aspects of the Seiko line but that is my impression.
You phrased this much better than I did, thank you. I agree 100% that Seiko is an attractive choice (to me) at the entry level, as well as at the high end of the spectrum. It's the wide chasm in between that fails to hold any interest.

What a great question. I tend to gravitate more towards the Japanese brands, mostly Seiko and Orient precisely for the reason you say they don't appeal to you, styling. I don't typically consider the movement beat rate since I know it will be well made and durable. This is odd for me at least since I also look for specific movements in the Swiss watches I buy. At any rate, I find the styling of Seikos to be much more appealing than the Citizens I have recently seen and, since I only see the the outside, I'm more concerned with the fit and finish than the movement. For example, if my Turthe had the bezel alignment issues so common to the model then that would be my predominant concern for.me.
And this is why we're all different and why all of these different brands exist.

Interestingly, I'm tempted to pick up one of those Deep Blue Turtle homages the next time they offer a 40% off code. I like the color options, plus it offers the sapphire glass I like and a high-beat moving. If Seiko offered this combo in a Turtle for around $400-$500, I'd probably already own one.
 
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#6 ·
This thread will likely rapidly turn into an argumentative and negative one like so many others here, but with Seiko you are not only getting the watch, but also the history of the company with it. You are also getting a fully in-house piece for a price much, much less than you would with other brands. A big part of my decision making process when thinking about buying a particular watch is the brand's heritage, particularly with dive watches. When I (and I emphasize "I" since YMMV) think of the true innovators in dive watch development I think of five brands mostly: Blancpain, Rolex, Doxa, Omega...and Seiko. With only one of those can you get a bullet proof and in-house ISO certified diver for less than $200.
 
#7 ·
While I think Seiko makes a very nice watch for the money in the entry level category, 007, Monster, etc. and the Grand Seiko line seems comparable to many "higher tier" brands, (I've only handled a few but never owned) I feel they struggle with their mid range offerings. I have some of the same issues you referenced when comparing specs vs. pricing to some of the many micro brands, whatever that means. There are more knowledgeable WIS'ers here that can expand on the technical aspects of the Seiko line but that is my impression. But at the end of the day, if I like the watch I wear it regardless of specs. I really like my 007 but didn't like the Monster and I do think the modding option adds some allure. The 007 is a favorite because I modded it myself to my tastes and that means something to me, YMMV.
 
#8 ·
If you bang your watches around hard enough and regularly enough to actually know and experience the difference between Hardlex and sapphire, you probably don't need to have nice things. I mean, really, what are you people doing? Driving nails with your watches?

But on to the question. Seiko makes such a wide variety of watches, all with such dependable quality, that I can buy them without hesitation. I'm not wed to them, but I trust them to be dependable and pretty solid performers.
 
#9 · (Edited)
What a great question. I tend to gravitate more towards the Japanese brands, mostly Seiko and Orient precisely for the reason you say they don't appeal to you, styling. I don't typically consider the movement beat rate since I know it will be well made and durable. This is odd for me at least since I also look for specific movements in the Swiss watches I buy. At any rate, I find the styling of Seikos to be much more appealing than the Citizens I have recently seen and, since I only see the the outside, I'm more concerned with the fit and finish than the movement. For example, if my Turtle had the bezel alignment issues so common to the model then that would be my predominant concern for me.
 
#13 ·
You're welcome to test out the bezel action on my Aquis next time you are in Oregon!

Anyway, I have no issue with the MM300. It's ticks all the boxes.

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#12 ·
To echo what some other folks have said, for $200 you can't beat an SKX. On the luxury side, Grand Seiko can hold it's own against luxury swiss watches. But I also think Seiko offers less value in the mid-range than other brands. The main problem is the 6r15 movement which has a slow beat, slow date change, high positional variance and erratic time keeping. Some people argue that the slower beat makes it more durable, but Rolexes beat at 28,800 and they are probably the most durable mechanical movements in the game.
 
#15 ·
Any OVM version is a far better watch than a Shogun.

Especially the movement. No comparison.
I owned an ovm and a sumo. I still have the sumo. OVM is gone. The exterior finish was better in the sumo. 6r15 is not as accurate as the 2824 but it is more durable and reliable. So I disagree. Lume is better in seiko. Case Finished Better in Seiko. OVM had better bracelet though.
 
#16 · (Edited)
I see where you are coming from. I have owned most of the low to mid range seikos and I never really got on with them. I can see the attraction tho. Seiko divers have their own swag so to speak. A certain charisma and their very own set of quirks that some love and others loath. That's kind of my take on it. I do want to try out a MM 300. If it wasn't so damn tall I'd already have one.
 
#24 · (Edited)
One person's "hyped" feature is another person's preference. I don't at all begrudge anyone who doesn't care about the crystal or beat rate of the movement.

At the same time, I would argue that, at the $500 price point in a diver, why is it that virtually every other brand has sapphire and a high-beat movement and Seiko does not?

If it was just hype, then the competition wouldn't be nearly unanimous in its use of those things. To me, it's about a choice, much like wife prefers silver to gold in her jewelry.

I will bet that Seiko has a higher profit margin on that watch, too. And I don't begrudge them for that, either.

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#26 · (Edited)
I'm both a Shogun owner, and Seiko fan. Over many years they've proven their durability to me, and to be a great value. I also care more about the looks/design as it's what I see daily. Movements not so much. As far as the low beat movement BS people always seem to bring up, I could care less if there was a miniature squirrel inside my watch driving the movement as long as it keeps good time. I've got 3 SKX's I paid less than $200 for that all run less than +5 s/d.
 
#27 ·
Seiko divers have unique designs and are everlasting, you could throw one in the ocean, leave it there for 10 years and it'll still be working after.

Best lume, decent quality, unique designs, all in-house (they even produce their own steel to produce their own machines to produce their own watches), pretty awesome history and therefore worth every penny.
 
#28 ·
I agree once you get closer to the $1K area the value proposition is not as great given the movement.

However in the under $400 range (street price vs. MSRP) I think Seikos offer a good value proposition of quality for the money. I never worry about Seiko quality for watches in this price range (maybe I've been lucky), whereas I get mico-brand watches and I check them out with trepidation of some quality issue.

I think for watches in the sub $400 range, Seikos are in the sweet spot for value, IMHO.
 
#31 ·
Seiko is always my first choice for a durable,reliable,accurate & inexpensive dive watch that in all likelihood will run for 20 years without attention.

Add the history and zero BS totally in-house design then I'm usually sold and look no further.

I'm not in the slightest bit interested in sapphire vs hardlex,BPH rates and such carry-on.

But that's just me.
 
#32 ·
I did allot of diving and snorkeling in the early and mid 80's. A girlfriend of mine bought me a Seiko H558-5009 diver. I think the watch back then had a cost of like $500.00, kinda high for the time. I loved it! I wore that thing for years in and out of the water. It never leaked and always worked perfect. I remember seeing a 6309-7049 on a guys wrist around the same time and l had to have one, something about the way it looked.

To this day I still am drawn to the Vintage Seiko's, I have many. I'm not really a fan of the newer watches by Seiko, I have no idea why I know they are probably just as good if not better, maybe I'm just getting old and stuck in the past.

As far as Seiko VS Field... For me it's probably a bit nostalgia, a bit price and that classic look of a diver that the 6309-704x series has.

I do own Swiss divers also and enjoy them very much but when I look in my watch case the first one's that catch my eye are my 6309's

Funny thing is I can't remember ever selling one of my old Seiko's but traded or sold just about every Swiss diver I have had, not my O&W's though... but that's another story.
 
#33 ·
I'm a hopeless WIS. I love Seikos even Low-beat Hardlex models. I love Swiss movement high-beat sapphire models. I love the aesthetics of Japanese, European and yes even Boutique Franken watches. They all have a place, imho, in your watch box. That's the beauty of this addiction. Happy we have so many to choose from. Like the saying goes, "that's what makes a horse race"
 
#34 ·
Very well said!

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#38 ·
And TONS of POS watches have low-beat Chinese movements and mineral glass, so what's your point?
 
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#40 · (Edited)
Interesting that I'm starting to see a pattern here.

Car people will understand it when I say that it appears that Seikos are the Toyota Camry and Honda Accords of the watch world. A lot of the comments I see involve reliability, durability, and longevity, as well as long maintenance intervals, all of which are used to describe the vehicles I mentioned. Those cars have uninteresting but reliable drivetrains that won't get your heart pounding, but also won't leave you on the side of the road or bankrupt you with maintenance and repair costs. Reminds me of some of the Seiko movements mentioned here.

I've never been into those cars. And I mean no offense to anyone who drives a Cam/Cord, as most people regard a car as an appliance and nothing more. For me, I've always been into a car that brings excitement, whether it's driving it, or just looking at in the garage or parking lot. I like high performance, and I'm willing to spend some money on maintenance and take a chance on repair costs to get it.

Now, just replace "car" with "watch" in those last two sentences, I think it summarizes how I feel. And I also have a better understanding of the Seiko enthusiasts, too.

Good stuff, everyone!
 
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#49 ·
I don't see why people have to put down a long established line of dive watches from one of the giants in order to prop up what they like. Steinhart makes solid watches. Seiko makes solid watches. If you prefer the looks of your steinhart, great. I see no problem with that. But to try to pick part seikos of similar value to your steinhart, you will find it hard to do. I believe that it is impossible to get better value than the Seiko divers of today using the 6r15 movement.
 
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