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8K views 95 replies 15 participants last post by  DrFrancky 
#1 ·
I am new to the Forum, I have always had a passion for watches and now I am trying to create my own watch brand. I take inspiration from the Atlantic Worldmaster brand. I have always love the ETA movements due to their reliability. My watch brand will be called Carpathia and I am now in the beginning stages of design. I am an excellent Illustrator and Designer so I am sketching out the designs etc. I will later be looking for manufacturers that do custom work to create all necessary components such as dial with raised logo , custom case and engraved caseback with see throuh caseback such as tissot visodate, custom hands, custom crown . I will be creating my watch around the ETA 2836-2 automatic day date movement. I have done a lot of browsing and have found a lot of helpful threads on micro brands.
I would appreciate any additional information anyone has. Currently I have designed my logo and I am now beginning a design for my dial. Along with that I will work on a story for my brand. There is meaning behind my name which relates to the Carpathian Mountains in Europe also know as the Tatry in Poland which is where my family is from.

Here are my beginning stages of development.

first sketches
Text Font Illustration Art Drawing
View attachment carpathia type.jpg View attachment carpathia type_2.pdf Logo Text Font Sky Graphics
Final logo design

Dial Rough
Clock Font Wall clock Analog watch Circle
 
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#3 · (Edited)
Very nice graphics ( well educated and trained) skills - Only thing I would try to make sure is that those fine tips on the hands are manufacturable and the fine lines on your logo could be done with a tampo print system, without loosing their filigrane look due to the applicable minimum of color on the rubber! - You certainly can do a 0.2mm line but a 0.0mm sharp tip?
 
#5 ·
Thank you very much ! As far as the hands go I do want them to be fine tips I may alter them still. I am not very familiar with the tampo print system but I will read up on it. Yes I deffinately would like to retain the curvature and accents on the typeface. Ya I suppose I would just need a manufacturer to see how thin they can get the hands. As of right now I do not have any sourced.

I appreciate your help and suggestion, I am very excited and determined to create a very clean and well manufactured watch with a timeless design. =)
 
#4 ·
Thanks ! I am going for a simple art deco style watch. Once i sketch up the case I will post pictures, as for the watch straps I make my own so it will most likely be a nice vintage leather style but of coarse that will be up to the customer. =)
 
#7 ·
Yes I am a Graphic Designer. I do not really have expensive pens per sey, just an expensive tablet called an Intuos pro which allows me to create my Illustrations into vector art/Digital. I finished my Bachelors in Visual Design Studies at Columbia College Chicago in 2012.
|>
 
#8 · (Edited)
Nice - I just own a Bamboo tablet + Corel Paint. But have the problem that I can't watch the screen and coordinate my hands on the desk with the sketch on screen but like to draw directly on paper -what means that I don't use it that much - what finally goes contra improvement ... I do more in direction of practical shaping and CAD works ... The pens I assumed you use would cost 200$ for 32 pcs ... ( similar to COPIC markers)

thats mine - but just hobbyist level!
https://www.watchuseek.com/f77/while-waiting-my-inverter-2733322.html
 
#10 · (Edited)
You might want to mockup this watch yourself as it is no great effort ( 1..2 hours for raw visual modelling) and you would be able to independently do changes and itherations

What I feel is that you use a very narrow strap in relation to the large case diameter - and have rather long lugs.... and brand "C" logo on the bottom ring appears someway .... without orientation to me ... perhaps you could try to get the whole brand name on the ring to make sure that it is not understood as an abstract fish symbol for water tightness.

hj
 
#11 ·
You might want to mockup this watch yourself as it is no great effort ( 1..2 hours for raw visual modelling) and you would be able to independently do changes and itherations

What I feel is that you use a very narrow strap in relation to the large case diameter - and have rather long lugs.... and brand "C" logo on the bottom ring appears someway .... without orientation to me ... perhaps you could try to get the whole brand name on the ring to make sure that it is not understood as an abstract fish symbol for water tightness.

hj
What program are you referring to do a mockup in ? As far as the straps I would use a 19 to 20mm. The C logo was just a trial and error, I think sticking with the whole logo on the caseback and crown would be ideal. As far as the back the center is glass and the shape your looking at is the mechanical winding mechanism. Do you have any links or sources I can utilize that have quality work as far as production of parts?
 
#12 ·
difficult - especially in the US - you should ask this questions in watchmaker forum ..... in Germany there are 3 manufacturer I know, they don't prototype - but if you would pay a 5 digits price for a number of 50 pcs minimum as small series production just for the metal parts! + small parts + movement + 2 Saphire glasses + strap + dial + hands without assembly.

This is one of the reasons I did not try myself with a micro brand - I do not see the market for a watch for which I - in case of the small production amount I would have to pay twice the money for the parts than a large manufacturer - and to offer unique options I think I would have to have a VERY special design .. special complications special material or something else what differeniates my watch from the 100000 others which are already established on the market in a way which is so clear that it will be bought!!


I use Rhino 3D wich is someway a hybrid in between a Tech CAD and a design cad - Means you can generate technical dimensions and drawings with and you can do technical illustrations - you can buy plugins for photorealistic rendering and 3rd party products for CAM for manufacturing.... At the beginning its a bit hard to get used to it but you rather fast find into this GUI which is pretty good, compared with more expensive programs ... Mc Neel offers a 25 saves free trial so you can try yourself ... If you would be interested I wrote a tutorial to dig into that
- not really watch related but who cares....
 
#13 · (Edited)
I spent about an hour in a quick and dirty mockup done in Rhino5 - I have the assumption that you if you want to stay close to your sketches might get into issues due to little knowledge of the program - I for myself had to find several detail solutions which keep the mockup close to the original look and to stay producable - ( and it is far from beeing cost and wear optimized ) so you would have a lot to do to get from the sketches to a produceable model ... My mockup data is not for share but just to show you what to get out of this process... Time I needed was 1:15 h until this state ... time I estimated to need was 45min . For a beginner probably several days of trial and error... without implementing the necessary functional dimensions and tolerances. Your strap (22mm) appears still too narrow for that case size ( much too large)

Drum Musical instrument Marching percussion Membranophone Snare drum
 
#14 ·
I spent about an hour in a quick and dirty mockup done in Rhino5 - I have the assumption that you if you want to stay close to your sketches might get into issues due to little knowledge of the program - I for myself had to find several detail solutions which keep the mockup close to the original look and to stay producable - ( and it is far from beeing cost and wear optimized ) so you would have a lot to do to get from the sketches to a produceable model ... My mockup data is not for share but just to show you what to get out of this process... Time I needed was 1:15 h until this state ... time I estimated to need was 45min . For a beginner probably several days of trial and error... without implementing the necessary functional dimensions and tolerances. Your strap (22mm) appears still too narrow for that case size

View attachment 6567034
Ahh yes it would definitely be a learning curve. I can see it being doable but it will definitely take a lot of time. I know what you mean with creating a watch that is different from the ones out there. I have an idea that might be pretty unique but I will have to see. I do like what you have done with my sketches I think this would look very nice with something that like you stated differentiates my brand from others. Im looking to keep my brand within a specific niche and creating a good story to go along with it. What I am trying to figure out now is a model name for my first series of watches. I have an idea of naming the model as follows, ex. mountaineer, climber, Ascend, or Ascent. Also I was thinking of using altitudes as the models for the watches ex. the highest peaks of the Carpathian Mountains. The reason behind these names is the fact that Carpathia came from the Carpathian Mountains in Europe and the Bird which is a stork as part of the logo represents the Bird from my hometown near the mountains. Now I do realize the type of watch I have is more of a classy watch than a sporty watch but the idea I have is to make something that will allow you to use it as both. I will like to release 1 model, 4 watches with different color variations.

They are as follows.
-Rose Gold case, hands, crown and navy blue dial.
-Chrome case, hands,crown with rose gold/salmon dial such as vintage delbana chronographs circa 1940.
-Brushed Gold case,hands,crown with black dial.
-Matte Black case , hands, crown, with off white dial.
 
#15 ·
I do agree with you that the strap looks too narrow. it would definitely need to be bigger. As far as the movement I would be working the design of the case, dimensions etc. around the ETA 2836-2 movement http://www.sapphytimes.com/wimages/2836-2.jpg. I can definitely make a bigger case but then have to produce a bigger spacer ring inside the case to keep the movement in place. Thanks for all of the input and help I really appreciate it!
 
#16 · (Edited)
Analog watch Watch Fashion accessory Silver Material property
Just for information - there is a process going on which might make it difficult in near future ,-when it comes to availlability of ETA movements and parts for the common market .. 2836 - not sure if there are pendants outside .. could be an idea to eventually think about an available alternative ...

About the current watch --- it unifies elements of a marriage ( size and crown) B-watch size and case shape and dress watch ( hands and dial ) but it ist too large for a dress watch to be worn below a dress and the strap does not fit to a B-watch
 
#17 ·
View attachment 6569378 Just for information - there is a process going on which might make it difficult in near future ,-when it comes to availlability of ETA movements and parts for the common market .. 2836 - not sure if there are pendants outside .. could be an idea to eventually think about an available alternative ...

About the current watch --- it unifies elements of a marriage ( size and crown) B-watch size and case shape and dress watch ( hands and dial ) but it ist too large for a dress watch to be worn below a dress and the strap does not fit to a B-watch
If that is a problem then I can definitely use a different movement in the future. From experience i have had several of these movements and they have been very reliable.

I am no sure what you mean by B-watch can you be more specific.

Thank you,
Mark
 
#18 · (Edited)
In Germany it is called Beobachtungsuhr If you would look at old Hanhart or Hamilton or similar avionic or military watches...

Quasi-copied or evolved in design "some thousand times"...... until it became an own watch style Branche . Big dial - normally solid lume indexes to be seen at night. Big crown to be handled with gloves, long and strong wristband to be worn over the pilots overall - Very rigid
/ robust design .

http://uhrforum.de/attachments/3238...-kleiner-sekunde-made-in-germany-dsc01473.jpg

https://www.bing.com/images/search?...806369e30a51d6f951464c46f5d5d2fco0&ajaxhist=0
 
#19 ·
I would suggest not using a strap size like 19mm- straps sized 15,17,19mm are hardly available anywhere and narrow the watch owner's choice of strap. Typical sizes are even numbers like 16, 18, 20, 22mm. If these narrow (compared to the case diameter) lugs are to be 22mm, then the watch itself will be large enough to be hardly wearable. That's at least 50mm going by how it looks in the picture, and 47mm is already monstrous. That's pocket watch size territory. Art-deco style case? Surely a nice idea. The only vintage wristwatch with a diameter over 50mm (55, to be precise) was the original Stowa Flieger, but even this seems to have been designed to be worn over the pilot's coat/oufit, not directly on the wrist.

In other words- such watches look good only if someone has a monstrous wrist. Otherwise, it's like a wall clock with a strap. Which makes no sense, really. Although that's putting it mildly- it's not even massive, it's an abomination. Maybe it's fashionable now, but neither practical nor comfortable. Just my opinion.

The design itself is really simple and nice, but really would benefit from changing the proportions between the lug size and the diameter. Also, a size south of 43mm would be much better. If you want a transparent case back, and from the technical drawings so it appears, then keep in mind, that compared to the massive case size any ETA or Sellita automatic movement will look really small. So will any Soprod. And with ETA ceasing to supply anyone outside the Swatch Group, Sellita and Soprod are your only choices, should you want the movement to be a Swiss one.

Even when I have a look at my 43mm Edox, the position of the balance wheel of the ETA 2824 inside it indicates, where approximately the movement ends, and the case starts. And the space between the edge of the movement and the outer edge of the case is MASSIVE.
The ETA 2836 is a 11.5''' size movement, which is around 25-26mm. So is the 2824.
These calibres were originally designed for watches with the size typical for men's watches all the way between the 1930s and the 1990s. And that range started with 28-30mm to 38mm tops, with an exception for tool watches- diver watches, racing or aviator-style chronographs. Even the Rolex Submariner, which is quite a chunky tool watch, measures only 40mm. The late 1960s Omega Speedmaster "Moonwatch" was considered a large tool watch, and it measures...42mm.

Therefore, my suggestions would be:
Use a date only or no-date movement. Day-date causes too many things to happen in this design at the same time. Which some like- I don't (that's just my opinion).
Reduce size.
Change lugs/case size proportions.

I really like the logo, both the font and the side view of a stork in flight.
 
#21 ·
I would suggest not using a strap size like 19mm- straps sized 15,17,19mm are hardly available anywhere and narrow the watch owner's choice of strap. Typical sizes are even numbers like 16, 18, 20, 22mm. If these narrow (compared to the case diameter) lugs are to be 22mm, then the watch itself will be large enough to be hardly wearable. That's at least 50mm going by how it looks in the picture, and 47mm is already monstrous. That's pocket watch size territory. Art-deco style case? Surely a nice idea. The only vintage wristwatch with a diameter over 50mm (55, to be precise) was the original Stowa Flieger, but even this seems to have been designed to be worn over the pilot's coat/oufit, not directly on the wrist.

In other words- such watches look good only if someone has a monstrous wrist. Otherwise, it's like a wall clock with a strap. Which makes no sense, really. Although that's putting it mildly- it's not even massive, it's an abomination. Maybe it's fashionable now, but neither practical nor comfortable. Just my opinion.

The design itself is really simple and nice, but really would benefit from changing the proportions between the lug size and the diameter. Also, a size south of 43mm would be much better. If you want a transparent case back, and from the technical drawings so it appears, then keep in mind, that compared to the massive case size any ETA or Sellita automatic movement will look really small. So will any Soprod. And with ETA ceasing to supply anyone outside the Swatch Group, Sellita and Soprod are your only choices, should you want the movement to be a Swiss one.

Even when I have a look at my 43mm Edox, the position of the balance wheel of the ETA 2824 inside it indicates, where approximately the movement ends, and the case starts. And the space between the edge of the movement and the outer edge of the case is MASSIVE.
The ETA 2836 is a 11.5''' size movement, which is around 25-26mm. So is the 2824.
These calibres were originally designed for watches with the size typical for men's watches all the way between the 1930s and the 1990s. And that range started with 28-30mm to 38mm tops, with an exception for tool watches- diver watches, racing or aviator-style chronographs. Even the Rolex Submariner, which is quite a chunky tool watch, measures only 40mm. The late 1960s Omega Speedmaster "Moonwatch" was considered a large tool watch, and it measures...42mm.

Therefore, my suggestions would be:
Use a date only or no-date movement. Day-date causes too many things to happen in this design at the same time. Which some like- I don't (that's just my opinion).
Reduce size.
Change lugs/case size proportions.

I really like the logo, both the font and the side view of a stork in flight.
Hello and Thank you for the excellent feedback.

So as far as case diameter I have narrowed it down to 42mm the size of a Hamilton Jazzmaster. Length would be 51mm. So I would be using a 22mm strap. As far ast the movement I do not have to go with the ETA . I am looking to make a watch that has a reliable swiss movement. So we can knock the ETA 2836 off the list. I actually prefer a clear caseback that shows a big movement like a maurice lacroix not a dinky one as you stated. Which do you recommend that is affordable accessible and reliable for a 42mm case. Preferably date automatic. My dial will be 40mm if I am correct. I definitely do not want an invitica size or diesel size watch haha.

Another question I have is where can i find sources for parts manufacturers Ive been looking everywhere I contacted universo, and montrichard group but no luck with that as of yet. Maybe you can enlighten me on the true meaning of a watch when it says swiss made on the dial are all the components of the watch made in Switzerland? Do I have to put swiss made if I am using a swiss movement or is that just for the buyer to give him a peace of mind so to speak do to the reputation of the name ? Ill be making an instagram profile shortly and uploading all my progress Ill let you guys know when I do so.

Thanks again !
 
#23 ·
Viewing your sketches I would ask to thik about the design of the lugs ... from side view they appear rather fragile / small... from top side you want to apply a floating camfer wich reduces diameter further imagine what this means to the proportions of of the watch

If you want to have a broad spectre of watch movements

ETA sells the 2824-2 which is rather similar ( rather same dimensions as SW20) and i guess there is also a China clone exisiting

I dont know, if CONCEPTO would also work on this size....
 
#24 ·
Viewing your sketches I would ask to thik about the design of the lugs ... from side view they appear rather fragile / small... from top side you want to apply a floating camfer wich reduces diameter further imagine what this means to the proportions of of the watch

If you want to have a broad spectre of watch movements

ETA sells the 2824-2 which is rather similar ( rather same dimensions as SW20) and i guess there is also a China clone exisiting

I dont know, if CONCEPTO would also work on this size....
The side views are just ideas for the side of the watch both are side views none are top side view. I think the one on top looks nice, I liked the rough you produced that arch looked excellent. Im looking for a swiss movement definately, a date automatic that is big in size so that you can see a lot of movement with the glass caseback window.
 
#25 ·
A watch with a Swiss movement, but not assembled in Switzerland, doesn't have a "Swiss Made" or "Swiss" marking. Exempli gratia: Stowa uses Swiss movements, but all their watches are assembled in Germany, and so have a "Made in Germany" on them.
Since you're located in the US, you can use "Made in the USA" "American made" , "USA", "US Made" or whatever you think will suit the watch. If you want to emphasize the fact of the movement being Swiss, you can put "Swiss Movement" or "Swiss Movt." somewhere on the watch.
Automatic movement bigger than 12 lignes? Among the current ones? Good luck with that- both Sellita and Soprod make either ETA clones or modify the basic ETA movements (Soprod A10).
There are companies that make custom dials, also in larger quantities. Google out "custom watch dials" or something like that. Watch case companies also exist, many of them located in Pforzheim, Germany. But I suppose, that in order to have exactly the case design you want, you need to make the cases yourself. If you intend to manufacture watches, this will happen sooner or later. And, truth be told, doesn't make your watch business dependent from a supplier.
@MechaMind: The lugs don't seem fragile to me.
As a matter of fact, since they are concave on the sides, they remind me of my absolutely favourite vintage watch in my collection- a Zenith, dating to 1948:
Analog watch Watch Watch accessory Wrist Fashion accessory


Also, the dial of the OP's watch project has certain similarities to my Zenith- notice the similar minute track.
 
#26 ·
A watch with a Swiss movement, but not assembled in Switzerland, doesn't have a "Swiss Made" or "Swiss" marking. Exempli gratia: Stowa uses Swiss movements, but all their watches are assembled in Germany, and so have a "Made in Germany" on them.
Since you're located in the US, you can use "Made in the USA" "American made" , "USA", "US Made" or whatever you think will suit the watch. If you want to emphasize the fact of the movement being Swiss, you can put "Swiss Movement" or "Swiss Movt." somewhere on the watch.
Automatic movement bigger than 12 lignes? Among the current ones? Good luck with that- both Sellita and Soprod make either ETA clones or modify the basic ETA movements (Soprod A10).
There are companies that make custom dials, also in larger quantities. Google out "custom watch dials" or something like that. Watch case companies also exist, many of them located in Pforzheim, Germany. But I suppose, that in order to have exactly the case design you want, you need to make the cases yourself. If you intend to manufacture watches, this will happen sooner or later. And, truth be told, doesn't make your watch business dependent from a supplier.
@MechaMind: The lugs don't seem fragile to me.
As a matter of fact, since they are concave on the sides, they remind me of my absolutely favourite vintage watch in my collection- a Zenith, dating to 1948:
View attachment 6592850

Also, the dial of the OP's watch project has certain similarities to my Zenith- notice the similar minute track.
Ok yes that is what I was assuming as well, just wanted to clarify. I might just put Chicago Made. The whole story behind the watch brand revolves around Poland so I was thinking of somehow incorporating that but I do not want to overdue it and have it not make sense. I like the Idea of the Soprod A10 movements. I will dig into the Dial and Case-making some more. As far as getting the exact design I want; I will have my friend that is an engineer and makes airplane parts for Boeing create an exact model in whatever program he uses. With those specs I should be able to get a manufacturer to produce the cases.

I have to agree that I do not think the lugs are too thin I have many vintage watches with thin lugs and the zenith you have on I had a pristine condition one I sold a year ago !
 
#27 ·
An identical one? Calibre 126-5?
So now I know where did you get inspiration from- vintage watches are a gold mine of ideas for new watch concepts.
Oh, and another thing- maybe add a counterweight to the second hand.
"Chicago Made" sounds a bit odd. If you already have "Chicago-Poland" on the dial, I think that there'd be too much Chicago in there already with an additional "Chicago Made".
The country where a watch was made being indicated on the dial wasn't always there- for example, at some point a "Swiss" or "Swiss Made" inscription was added due to import laws of the countries where the watches were to be sold. For example, my 1939 Tissot doesn't have any marking on the bottom of the dial. Still, it hardly gets any more Swiss than Tissot- at some point, they were selling more watches in Switzerland alone, than any other watch company.
I think, that if you go into combining the Bauhaus and Art-Deco styles (which is what it appears that you do) in one watch, then for the dial I'd stay with the Bauhaus simplicity and not overcrowd it with inscriptions. There are some watches, where the simplicity was ruined by a lot of text- look at the Rolex Daytona- it looks like they've printed an entire book on the dial. It's like that:
Rolex
Oyster Perpetual
Superlative Chronometer
Officially Certified
Cosmograph
Daytona.
How many inscriptions more? Look at the first generation of hand-wound Daytonas- without all that writing, it was much simpler, and thus more understated and elegant.
It's good to hear, that you have someone who will help you with the case model- an exact model is what you will definitely need, no matter if you want to have a case company manufacture them for you, or do you want to make the case yourself. Also, you'll probably need to work with a dial company on creating a dial, that exactly matches your vision and concept technical drawings- after all, you wouldn't want to end up with a lot of dials, which would be a disappointment.
 
#29 ·
I dont recall the calibre it was over two years ago. Yes exactly I love Vintage watches, Oh yes I definately would not want to overcrowd the dial I would just stick to Chicago-Poland. and possibly swiss mvmt or automatic one or the other or none. I love the vintage watch styles they are timeless. I have over 20 watches in my collection primarily Atlantic, as well as tissot, raymond weil, frederique constant, hamilton adriatica, iaxa, delbana, thoresen reciprico chrono, bucherer, are the ones I remember off the top of my head. I am only 27 so my collection will only grow haha. Yes I have to agree with you on the Daytona it is overkill! I dont have the machinery to create my own case that would be amazing though. As far as the dials, yes I do not want to be stuck with 1000 ugly dials haha. Hopefully I can find a good reputable Dial manufacturer to produce them for me.
 
#28 ·
@ MKWS - I did not mean fragile in structural background - In the sketches top view I found those finlelines on the lugs wich idicated a kind of chamfer too me which would lighten the "optical weight " of the lugs and would make them appear fragile ( this might be just my impression taken out of that sketch!)
 
#32 ·
Font Circle Clock Fashion accessory Metal
First version dial offwhite,mattblack combo. Textured dial without Hands.
Font Circle Fashion accessory Metal

Dial with ring
Green Circle Font Clock Illustration

dial without ring.

Here is my design for the first color combo dials. The case will be Matte black with offwhite dial and black lettering. I am still going to add the date option just realized that was not on these samples.
 
#33 ·
Black case...PVD? Maybe just use a darker alloy for the case- PVD tends to wear out and scratch easily.
I really like that dial design now.
 
#35 ·
The dial texture is OK- reminds me of the 1960s design used in the Atlantic Worldmaster. The darker alloys used for watch cases were being often referred to as "gun metal". You can see them in quite a lot of 1900s-1910s pocket watches. Some 1930s wristwatches as well. They're not as durable as stainless steel, though- the nickel(1910s-1920s PWs) and Staybrite steel (1930s WWs and PWs) cases seem to usually be in a better shape than gun metal cases made around the same time. I'm not a metallurgist, so I'm not able to help with what these alloys contain. Just general observations on the looks and durability.
What is used for the black PVD coating probably depends on the brand. One of the more durable black platings out there is the one once used in the Heuer Monza- although a quick look shows up a lot of battered specimens of the Monza as well.
 
#36 ·
Excellent information, I definitely want my watches to last as long as possible the little details are what makes everything better. Ya I was looking at my atlantic as well as my raymond weil which had texture and kind of went off of that. Its always an option but I guess the cleaner the better now adays.
 
#38 ·
sunburst texture is a nice touch. but we are yet to see how will it work with the day/date windows. you will need to calculate the place for windows on the dial according to the movement you'll use. Also, as you are using your own font there, you'll probably have to reprint day and date wheels of the movement during production
 
#39 ·
Hello, I will be swithching to a automatic date movement but I am not sure which one yet. As far as font it is a custom font for the numbers on the dial. For the date movement I beleieve a standard font would work is it usually helvetica? I think reprinting the date wheel would be too much of an expense.
 
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