Thermocompensated Citizen movements (Cal.0330G and Cal.E510G) tested on the Witschi QT6000 - Page 3
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Thread: Thermocompensated Citizen movements (Cal.0330G and Cal.E510G) tested on the Witschi QT6000

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  1. #21
    Member ppaulusz's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ppaulusz View Post
    ...Unfortunately I do not have a SpringDrive but the person who has the 1998 model The Citizen (Cal.A660H) also has a Seiko SpringDrive and he lives in the same city as me, by the way he is known as "Mechanikus" in our forum so I will try to organise a get together with him and subject some of his fine watches to the "Witschi-test".
    Well, Mechanikus visited me today with his fine timepieces and we tested them all on my Witschi at room temperature of 23 degrees of Celsius:

    The Citizen (Cal.A610H):
    - inhibition period: 10 seconds
    - accuracy of the stepping motor (by the magnetic sensor): -0.01 s/d
    - accuracy of the quartz oscillator (by the acoustic sensor):
    1st second: +7.54 s/d
    2nd second: +7.50 s/d
    3rd second: +7.54 s/d
    4th second: +7.25 s/d
    5th second: +6.17 s/d
    6th second: +6.09 s/d
    7th second: +6.14 s/d
    8th second: +6.35 s/d
    9th second: +6.19 s/d
    10th second: +6.19 s/d
    then it started again: the results might have changed a little bit here and there but the trend remained the same for the next lot of 10 seconds then the following lot of 10... and so on... and that is very similar to the test results of my thermocompensated Citizen Exceed watches: continuous inhibition (digital count suppression) combined with the continuous adjustment of the frequency of the quartz oscillator(!).

    Citizen Crystron 4 Mega (Cal.7370D):
    - inhibition period: none
    - accuracy of the stepping motor (by the magnetic sensor): -0.03 s/d
    - accuracy of the quartz oscillator (by the acoustic sensor): could not be measured
    (note: the Witschi QT6000 is designed to measure 32kHz quartz oscillators only by its acoustic sensor)

    Longines Flagship VHP Perpetual Calendar (L.546.2 = ETA 252.611):
    - inhibition period: 8 minutes (480 seconds)
    - accuracy of the stepping motor (by the magnetic sensor): -0.00 s/d
    - accuracy of the quartz oscillator (by the acoustic sensor): between +2.70s/d and +2.90 s/d

    Seiko Perpetual Calendar (Cal.8F32):
    - inhibition period: 10 seconds
    - accuracy of the stepping motor (by the magnetic sensor): +0.23 s/d
    - accuracy of the quartz oscillator (by the acoustic sensor): could not be measured
    (note: the Witschi QT6000 is designed to measure 32kHz quartz oscillators only by its acoustic sensor)

    Junghans Radio-controlled analog quartz:
    - inhibition period: none
    - accuracy of the stepping motor (by the magnetic sensor): -0.08 s/d
    - accuracy of the quartz oscillator (by the acoustic sensor): -0.08 s/d

    Seiko Spring-Drive:
    Mechanikus observed an accuracy of around +10 s/month over a longer period. The Witschi failed to get proper reading from the watch though we tried many times. Well, actually once we got a result of +0.34 s/d for the stepping motor by the magnetic sensor using 4 minutes (480 seconds) measuring period but we could not repeat it so we can't officially accept it though that result is very similar to Mechanikus' earlier observation.

    Casio ProTrek Solar Atomic (my radio-controlled digital multifunction watch):
    - inhibition period: none
    - accuracy of the quartz oscillator (by the acoustic sensor): +0.50 s/d
    Last edited by ppaulusz; November 16th, 2010 at 22:37. Reason: spelling

  2. #22
    Member Hans Moleman's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ppaulusz View Post

    The Citizen (Cal.A610H):
    - inhibition period: 10 seconds
    - accuracy of the stepping motor (by the magnetic sensor): -0.01 s/d
    - accuracy of the quartz oscillator (by the acoustic sensor):
    1st second: +7.54 s/d
    2nd second: +7.50 s/d
    3rd second: +7.54 s/d
    4th second: +7.25 s/d
    5th second: +6.17 s/d
    6th second: +6.09 s/d
    7th second: +6.14 s/d
    8th second: +6.35 s/d
    9th second: +6.19 s/d
    10th second: +6.19 s/d
    then it started again: the results might have changed a little bit here and there but the trend remained the same for the next lot of 10 seconds then the following lot of 10... and so on... and that is very similar to the test results of my thermocompensated Citizen Exceed watches: continuous inhibition (digital count suppression) combined with the continuous adjustment of the frequency of the quartz oscillator(!).
    These were my measurements on the A660



    And the hours I spend on why there were two lots of sequences!
    Thank you.
    There is a fast and a slow period!
    Phew! It all comes out in the wash for the one who waits.

  3. #23
    Member ppaulusz's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Moleman View Post
    These were my measurements on the A660



    And the hours I spend on why there were two lots of sequences!
    Thank you.
    There is a fast and a slow period!
    Phew! It all comes out in the wash for the one who waits.
    Well, Hans, while it's good news that finally we solved the secret of the The Citizen (and the rest of modern day high-accuracy Citizen movements) - it is somehow sad that there is not much else left to "hunt" for right now...

  4. #24
    Member Hans Moleman's Avatar
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    Re: Interesting ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ppaulusz View Post
    Well, Hans, while it's good news that finally we solved the secret of the The Citizen (and the rest of modern day high-accuracy Citizen movements) - it is somehow sad that there is not much else left to "hunt" for right now...
    You're a right romantic!
    And you're right. We hunt and are disappointed after a catch because we don't need to hunt anymore. And if we never caught anything we'd never hunt either. That's humans for ye!

    But not everything is explained yet. We don't know why it is done that way. What advantage did Citizen seek by doing that?

  5. #25
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    Very interesting !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ppaulusz View Post
    Well, Mechanikus visited me today with his fine timepieces and we tested them all on my Witschi at room temperature of 23 degrees of Celsius:

    The Citizen (Cal.A610H):
    - inhibition period: 10 seconds
    - accuracy of the stepping motor (by the magnetic sensor): -0.01 s/d
    - accuracy of the quartz oscillator (by the acoustic sensor):
    1st second: +7.54 s/d
    2nd second: +7.50 s/d
    3rd second: +7.54 s/d
    4th second: +7.25 s/d
    5th second: +6.17 s/d
    6th second: +6.09 s/d
    7th second: +6.14 s/d
    8th second: +6.35 s/d
    9th second: +6.19 s/d
    10th second: +6.19 s/d
    then it started again: the results might have changed a little bit here and there but the trend remained the same for the next lot of 10 seconds then the following lot of 10... and so on... and that is very similar to the test results of my thermocompensated Citizen Exceed watches: continuous inhibition (digital count suppression) combined with the continuous adjustment of the frequency of the quartz oscillator(!).

    Citizen Crystron 4 Mega (Cal.7370D):
    - inhibition period: none
    - accuracy of the stepping motor (by the magnetic sensor): -0.03 s/d
    - accuracy of the quartz oscillator (by the acoustic sensor): could not be measured
    (note: the Witschi QT6000 is designed to measure 32kHz quartz oscillators only by its acoustic sensor)

    Longines Flagship VHP Perpetual Calendar (L.546.2 = ETA 252.611):
    - inhibition period: 8 minutes (480 seconds)
    - accuracy of the stepping motor (by the magnetic sensor): -0.00 s/d
    - accuracy of the quartz oscillator (by the acoustic sensor): between +2.70s/d and +2.90 s/d

    Seiko Perpetual Calendar (Cal.8F32):
    - inhibition period: 10 seconds
    - accuracy of the stepping motor (by the magnetic sensor): +0.23 s/d
    - accuracy of the quartz oscillator (by the acoustic sensor): could not be measured
    (note: the Witschi QT6000 is designed to measure 32kHz quartz oscillators only by its acoustic sensor)

    Junghans Radio-controlled analog quartz:
    - inhibition period: none
    - accuracy of the stepping motor (by the magnetic sensor): -0.08 s/d
    - accuracy of the quartz oscillator (by the acoustic sensor): -0.08 s/d

    Seiko Spring-Drive:
    Mechanikus observed an accuracy of around +10 s/month over a longer period. The Witschi failed to get proper reading from the watch though we tried many times. Well, actually once we got a result of +0.34 s/d for the stepping motor by the magnetic sensor using 4 minutes (480 seconds) measuring period but we could not repeat it so we can't officially accept it though that result is very similar to Mechanikus' earlier observation.

    Casio ProTrek Solar Atomic (my radio-controlled digital multifunction watch):
    - inhibition period: none
    - accuracy of the quartz oscillator (by the acoustic sensor): +0.50 s/d

    I would say that the measurements on The Citizen confirm that all TC calibers from Citizen in the last 25+ years are derived from the old 27xx calibers - with two observations - on that 27xx manual the 'cycle' is suggested as being around 2 seconds (but the wording seems unclear) while on both A610 and E510 your measurements suggest a cycle around 10 seconds; still there might be other differences from one to another since the temperature curves that we have seen posted around are not so similar!

    The fact that the ultrasonic sensor could not pick the MHz signals is not surprising (and probably even the 196 kHz is too high). For me the more interesting thing is that it could not pick the 32 kHz from the SpringDrive - it suggests my original strictly-technical impression that the 32 kHz from a quartz would only be picked if the quartz manufacturer did not provide an extensive 'vibrational separation' when encapsulating the crystal and the watch does not have some extra level of it's own 'vibrational separation' - I am very curious how different would be the results with something like a Sinn UX ! Another thing that is strongly suggested by the results is that the ultrasonic readings are already very close to a minimum detection limit and as such might be very, very sensitive to any kind of 'noise' - not only actual voices around the device but maybe also even the 'internal ticking' - that might explain why the Aerospace was very 'steady' while the Conquest and Constellation were not! There might also be other sources of 'measurement error' which explains why for instance for your Constellation the Witschi was suggesting over 18 s/y while the watch was obviously calibrated for better than that!

    I am a little surprised (in a good way) by the results on the Junghans quartz - what model is that ?

    And I am not so surprised by the results on the Casio - my own generic measurements on Casio models was suggesting that they are using a very 'raw' 32 kHz quartz and that very often when non-receiving the error is very large and close to 15-20 s/month !

  6. #26
    Member ppaulusz's Avatar
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    Re: Very interesting !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Catalin View Post
    I would say that the measurements on The Citizen confirm that all TC calibers from Citizen in the last 25+ years are derived from the old 27xx calibers - with two observations - on that 27xx manual the 'cycle' is suggested as being around 2 seconds (but the wording seems unclear) while on both A610 and E510 your measurements suggest a cycle around 10 seconds; still there might be other differences from one to another since the temperature curves that we have seen posted around are not so similar!...
    I agree with the above.

  7. #27
    Member ppaulusz's Avatar
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    Re: Very interesting !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Catalin View Post
    ...I am a little surprised (in a good way) by the results on the Junghans quartz - what model is that ?

    And I am not so surprised by the results on the Casio - my own generic measurements on Casio models was suggesting that they are using a very 'raw' 32 kHz quartz and that very often when non-receiving the error is very large and close to 15-20 s/month !
    It's a Junghans caliber 615.

  8. #28
    Member ppaulusz's Avatar
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    Re: Very interesting !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Catalin View Post
    ...The fact that the ultrasonic sensor could not pick the MHz signals is not surprising (and probably even the 196 kHz is too high). For me the more interesting thing is that it could not pick the 32 kHz from the SpringDrive - it suggests my original strictly-technical impression that the 32 kHz from a quartz would only be picked if the quartz manufacturer did not provide an extensive 'vibrational separation' when encapsulating the crystal and the watch does not have some extra level of it's own 'vibrational separation' - I am very curious how different would be the results with something like a Sinn UX ! Another thing that is strongly suggested by the results is that the ultrasonic readings are already very close to a minimum detection limit and as such might be very, very sensitive to any kind of 'noise' - not only actual voices around the device but maybe also even the 'internal ticking' - that might explain why the Aerospace was very 'steady' while the Conquest and Constellation were not! There might also be other sources of 'measurement error' which explains why for instance for your Constellation the Witschi was suggesting over 18 s/y while the watch was obviously calibrated for better than that!...
    My Constellation is calibrated for on-wrist performance (24 hours/7days) and lately I don't use it at all. The test was done at room temperature and yes, there could be that much differences. Same story with my Aerospace as well!

    The interior of the Spring-Drive is the busiest in the quartz watch world. There is nothing like it! I'm pretty sure that we could get something out of its 32kHz crystal if we were to open the watch but that was never an option with a movement like the Spring-Drive.

    The Witschi is designed for listening to the 32kHz oscillator's noise by the acoustic sensor. The 4.19MHz and 196kHz oscillators could not be recognized by it though the accuracy of those movements still can be measured by the magnetic sensor that receives the signals from the stepping motor. There is a capacitive sensor in my Witschi as well but using it requires opening the watch and using the supplied contact accessories - that is a bit beyond my knowledge and is better suited to the professional watchmakers. The Witschi can do a great deal more than the standard closed-case measurements I've been using it for.

  9. #29
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    Re: Very interesting !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ppaulusz View Post
    My Constellation is calibrated for on-wrist performance (24 hours/7days) and lately I don't use it at all. The test was done at room temperature and yes, there could be that much differences. Same story with my Aerospace as well!
    ...
    Hmm, my own Conquest VHP Perpetual certainly has less than 6-8 s/y difference from 'warm' to 'room' and the same range seems to be suggested by the numbers that I have seen around here ... 18 s/y might be at most a battery in the final months or something similar ... or just I said - some unavoidable measurement errors on very short intervals!

  10. #30
    Member ppaulusz's Avatar
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    Re: Very interesting !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Catalin View Post
    Hmm, my own Conquest VHP Perpetual certainly has less than 6-8 s/y difference from 'warm' to 'room' and the same range seems to be suggested by the numbers that I have seen around here ... 18 s/y might be at most a battery in the final months or something similar ... or just I said - some unavoidable measurement errors on very short intervals!
    Well, my Aerospace at room temperature runs -0.05 s/d. From the 20th of this month I will start using it again 24hr/7days and see what happens.

    By the way, you bought your VHP just a couple of weeks ago so that would be a very short interval indeed.

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